Point Fighting: Is it truly Karate?

[Probs92]

I have a few training partners that make it around the karate point fighting tourney circuit and I have gone to cheer them on. At the last tourney, I was faced with this dilemma: by the way the combatants move and the way the tourney was scored, I began to wonder whether or not it is truly karate-do.

I practiced free style sparring in my dojo every Saturday for many years, with the understanding that this was mimicking combat in the street, and to a degree it was. The free-style practiced at these point fighting tourneys could potentially get someone hurt in real life if they used these techniques in a self defense situation. To me, their movements were a glorified game of tag.

I guess my takeaway was that I couldn't tell if this was truly karate-do, but if not, what constitutes karate-do?

What are your thoughts on this?

 

[donald1]

i could be wrong (i go to a traditional karate school so i dont know much about tournements) when you say point sparring like tap? my first thought no but i could be wrong

 

[K-man]

Point sparring is the way most karate competitions are conducted. Obviously the contestants are fighting according to the rules. That is no different to MMA where, although the rules are less stringent, you fight within those rules.

Karate is karate regardless of the competition style. Only a small part of it is on display in a competition.

 

[Danny T]

I have a few training partners that make it around the karate point fighting tourney circuit and I have gone to cheer them on. At the last tourney, I was faced with this dilemma: by the way the combatants move and the way the tourney was scored, I began to wonder whether or not it is truly karate-do.

I practiced free style sparring in my dojo every Saturday for many years, with the understanding that this was mimicking combat in the street, and to a degree it was. The free-style practiced at these point fighting tourneys could potentially get someone hurt in real life if they used these techniques in a self defense situation. To me, their movements were a glorified game of tag.

I guess my takeaway was that I couldn't tell if this was truly karate-do, but if not, what constitutes karate-do?

What are your thoughts on this?

In the U.S. touch and stop, point fighting is very much karate. That said it is only a part of karate. Kata competition is also karate, even worse in my opinion is the free style weapons competitions. It is all a part of karate today.
Point fighting has nothing to do with self defense and I agree could potentially get someone hurt in a situation one would have to fight for real in a physical altercation. Case in point, a Shori- Ryu 4th degree bb joined our school about 4 years ago. Gentleman was approx. 35 years old, very quick, crisp punches and kicks. Very strong point fighter, had won numerous competitions in kata a well. Great person and excellent karate competition skills but his punches and kicks had absolutely no power upon contact. He had spent almost 15 years punching and kicking very quickly put pulling them they were just fast taps. After a few training session he even stated how disappointed and embarrassed he was for he had told students he had taught how well they would be able to fight in a real situation and here he couldn't hit as hard as many of our young teenagers. It took around 3 months for him to actually contact with knock out power. Today he is a very powerful puncher and kicker but he no longer participates in point fighting.

 

[Laplace_demon]

In the U.S. touch and stop, point fighting is very much karate. That said it is only a part of karate. Kata competition is also karate, even worse in my opinion is the free style weapons competitions. It is all a part of karate today.
Point fighting has nothing to do with self defense and I agree could potentially get someone hurt in a situation one would have to fight for real in a physical altercation. Case in point, a Shori- Ryu 4th degree bb joined our school about 4 years ago. Gentleman was approx. 35 years old, very quick, crisp punches and kicks. Very strong point fighter, had won numerous competitions in kata a well. Great person and excellent karate competition skills but his punches and kicks had absolutely no power upon contact. He had spent almost 15 years punching and kicking very quickly put pulling them they were just fast taps. After a few training session he even stated how disappointed and embarrassed he was for he had told students he had taught how well they would be able to fight in a real situation and here he couldn't hit as hard as many of our young teenagers. It took around 3 months for him to actually contact with knock out power. Today he is a very powerful puncher and kicker but he no longer participates in point fighting.

Technique and physical attributes determine the generation of power, not formats. There is no logic to what you are saying, supposing the gentleman in question did not pull back on his techniques, out of habit.

 

[Tez3]

Technique and physical attributes determine the generation of power, not formats. There is no logic to what you are saying, supposing the gentleman in question did not pull back on his techniques, out of habit.

No, you are what you practice, they learn to touch and stop, that was their technique, what they were taught, so he would have had no power in his punches. The point fighter who has spent all his time doing that does have to learn how to punch properly to be able to punch hard.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Combined with some realistic training, point fighting helps you be first, and that can be very important considering fights only last a few seconds.

 

[Laplace_demon]

No, you are what you practice, they learn to touch and stop, that was their technique, what they were taught, so he would have had no power in his punches. The point fighter who has spent all his time doing that does have to learn how to punch properly to be able to punch hard.

Well that one is easy. The premise is false in lots of light contact arts, such my own. We go full force with techniques, just not against each other. I kicked just hard the moment I got there as I do today. It's all in me, not the martial art.

 

[Chris Parker]

Well… you don't need to train in one, then, it seems…

 

[Tez3]

Well that one is easy. The premise is false in lots of light contact arts, such my own. We go full force with techniques, just not against each other. I kicked just hard the moment I got there as I do today. It's all in me, not the martial art.

Well, bully for you. However, in many places they simply don't go 'full on' they train for what they want to do...point sparring. If they also train full force then there's less likely to be a problem but mostly though those that are successful in point sparring train for just that.
I wonder to be frank that you bother training a martial art if it's all in you not the art, it would seem there's nothing that martial arts can teach you.

 

[Laplace_demon]

In the kicks I already master by myself, there is very little difference power wise. I can still improve in lots of kicks I dont do as well. My sidekick for instance can be greatly improved. And you seem to miss that I train because its fun...

 

[Chris Parker]

Then I'll put it this way… if a student came into one of my classes with that attitude, I'd likely show them just how far off the reality they are, demonstrate to them in no uncertain terms that they're far from what they could be, if they take the lessons of the art to heart… then invite them to leave. Permanently.

There's no point trying to teach someone who thinks they already know it.

 

[Tez3]

In the kicks I already master by myself, there is very little difference power wise. I can still improve in lots of kicks I dont do as well. My sidekick for instance can be greatly improved. And you seem to miss that I train because its fun...

I can imagine it's enormous fun being so superior.
However this thread isn't about you, it's about point sparring and karate, you, I believe train TKD so not so relevant to you perhaps in light of your disdain of WTF.

 

[Laplace_demon]

I can imagine it's enormous fun being so superior.
However this thread isn't about you, it's about point sparring and karate, you, I believe train TKD so not so relevant to you perhaps in light of your disdain of WTF.

The same argument is raised against my art as in Karate and It's not valid. Our contact level in sparring is pretty much the same. If you know the mechanics of the technique, then your genetics will decide the force, not your background. Perhaps WKF schools train sport techniques, in which case it still holds true as long the proponent doesn't pull back when needed, but instead follows through.

 

[Tez3]

The same argument is raised against my art as in Karate and It's not valid. Our contact level in sparring is pretty much the same. If you know the mechanics of the technique, then your genetics will decide the force, not your background. Perhaps WKF schools train sport techniques, in which case it still holds true as long the proponent doesn't pull back when needed, but instead follows through.

So, if you don't have the genetics for martial arts don't bother training basically.

 

[Laplace_demon]

Then I'll put it this way… if a student came into one of my classes with that attitude, I'd likely show them just how far off the reality they are, demonstrate to them in no uncertain terms that they're far from what they could be, if they take the lessons of the art to heart… then invite them to leave. Permanently.

There's no point trying to teach someone who thinks they already know it.

Your attitude as a teacher should be encouragement of whatever streights the student holds and this includes the psychological! I detest any putting down of lower grades.

The ones I do fairly well and put my hole body behind, I generate more force than the rest. This is genetics being the tallest of lot, combined with executing the kick properly and fast. I have no illusions genetics account for much of it.

 

[Hanzou]

Sometimes sport makes an art better, sometimes it makes it worse.

Karate point fighting is the latter imo.

 

[Zero]

Clicker-fighting or sport karate is just that, it's just a sport and only the sport aspect of certain styles of karate. Obviously if you have sport/point fighters that are also training or competing in contact or other aspects then they can be very good all rounded fighters.

But I am inclined to agree with Tez in that you are what you eat, you are what you train, you become what you do. Hey, I used to compete in sport karate and prior to that years of TKD and had a lot of fun (and while carrying injuries have re-entered sport karate). But I have also fought for years in full contact, kyokoshin, kickboxing, a few Muay Thai tournaments and some mma and from having sparred against numerous sport fighters, when you up the intensity and contact, I can tell you most who have only trained for point tournaments do not hold up well at all. They continue to commit to torso punches (on a point mentality) while I am, microseconds behind that, connecting my fist to their face. They also do not handle combos or sustained attacks too well as are used to disengaging after point contact. Put your average sport fighter in the ring with your average/same level muay thai guy and it is likely to be a carnage-festival of epic proportion.

Look, that's all a generalisation but is my observation. Sport karate is great and great fun for what it is but I do not think it in itself equips you well for a contact fight or an SD situation. But then not everyone is interested in that.

In answer to the Op, sport-karate "is and is not karate" - it is a facette of some karate and is the only aspect that many who study in karate are exposed to.

 

[Laplace_demon]

Sometimes sport makes an art better, sometimes it makes it worse.

Karate point fighting is the latter imo.

I agree, though it's been around so long I almost find it intrinsic to Karate. Back in the days of Shotokan, the founder was against any sparring, which is surely even worse.

 

[Laplace_demon]

Clicker-fighting or sport karate is just that, it's just a sport and only the sport aspect of certain styles of karate. Obviously if you have sport/point fighters that are also training or competing in contact or other aspects then they can be very good all rounded fighters.

But I am inclined to agree with Tez in that you are what you eat, you are what you train, you become what you do. Hey, I used to compete in sport karate and prior to that years of TKD and had a lot of fun (and while carrying injuries have re-entered sport karate). But I have also fought for years in full contact, kyokoshin, kickboxing, a few Muay Thai tournaments and some mma and from having sparred against numerous sport fighters, when you up the intensity and contact, I can tell you most who have only trained for point tournaments do not hold up well at all. They continue to commit to torso punches (on a point mentality) while I am, microseconds behind that, connecting my fist to their face. They also do not handle combos or sustained attacks too well as are used to disengaging after point contact. Put your average sport fighter in the ring with your average/same level muay thai guy and it is likely to be a carnage-festival of epic proportion.

Look, that's all a generalisation but is my observation. Sport karate is great and great fun for what it is but I do not think it in itself equips you well for a contact fight or an SD situation. But then not everyone is interested in that.

In answer to the Op, sport-karate "is and is not karate" - it is a facette of some karate and is the only aspect that many who study in karate are exposed to.

To be fair, not all practitioners are ever interested in entering a real ring. The street is different when the first one to land a strike is in a heavy advantage anyway, given he's free to do whatever he wants to. bit of a lottery....