Pocket Stick usefullness and tactics

[Bob Hubbard]

Not every strike must kill. I'll take deadening a hand, and arm, stunning so I can disentangle or create space, etc. Take out his capacity to inflict damage, you can then control the remainder of the confrontation.

I've played with various 'stick substitutes', pens, markers, etc while working some techniques. Using the set I have, we did some stuff wearing vambraces and gloves, targeting the forearm and back of the hand. Even through the armour, the strikes were felt. No tingle, but a few bruises did happen.

 

[RoninPimp]

Not every strike must kill. I'll take deadening a hand, and arm, stunning so I can disentangle or create space, etc. Take out his capacity to inflict damage, you can then control the remainder of the confrontation.

I've played with various 'stick substitutes', pens, markers, etc while working some techniques. Using the set I have, we did some stuff wearing vambraces and gloves, targeting the forearm and back of the hand. Even through the armour, the strikes were felt. No tingle, but a few bruises did happen.

-I wasn't trying to immply killing is needed. Pain and bruises will not stop a determined attacker.

 

[MardiGras Bandit]

I don't understand how a pocket stick could help with a joint lock. I can only see it hindering the grips necessary to grapple. Can anyone explain this claim?

 

[shesulsa]

Sure. The stick is the extension of the hand. With a traditional grip, you would use one end of the short stick and place it over the arm (ulnar side or radial side, it doesn't matter) and use the stick instead of the hand to tighten the lock.

 

[Flatlander]

Pain and bruises will not stop a determined attacker.

Well then, you might as well turtle and die, because without a blade or gun, pain and bruises are all you're likely to get.

Why would anyone choose to eliminate an option? It seems nonsensical. Let's try a different tack here - please describe how you can be more effective without a blunt weapon. You may choose to ignore the question, but that will demonstrate the integrity of your position.

 

[MardiGras Bandit]

Sure. The stick is the extension of the hand. With a traditional grip, you would use one end of the short stick and place it over the arm (ulnar side or radial side, it doesn't matter) and use the stick instead of the hand to tighten the lock.

I can't see that being any better then a empty handed grip, it seems weaker if anything. I can see the usefulness of pocket sticks for hammerfisting someone, but I can't see them helping grappling at all.

Anyone know where any pictures demonstrating pocket stick joint locks are?

 

[RoninPimp]

Well then, you might as well turtle and die, because without a blade or gun, pain and bruises are all you're likely to get.

Why would anyone choose to eliminate an option? It seems nonsensical. Let's try a different tack here - please describe how you can be more effective without a blunt weapon. You may choose to ignore the question, but that will demonstrate the integrity of your position.

-I never ignore real questions that are on topic. What I mean is pain and bruises per the typical description of pocket stick use. What I have seen demonstrated and what I have seen pictures of is similar to the video clip links posted. They are worthless against a real resisting opponent. They may cause slight pain and bruising. They will not stop a person in attack mode. The only hope is striking with one and that, especially with a light plastic one, leaves a lot to be desired imo. Those tactical reasons, and their bad fit into SD strategy means they don't deserve serious consideration as an "option" imo.

What I mean by SD strategy is the ideal of being able to carry less than lethal options and deadly force options. Pepper spray and empty hands are perfectly capable for less than lethal situations. A club, knife, or firearm or all 3 depending on your location/politics/laws/ability for deadly force. The pocket stick doesn't make sense anywhere imo. It adds little to a less than lethal situation, but could be considered an escalation. And it is no where near lethal enough for a situation requiring lethal force.

So I agree that, with all other things being equal, a guy with one has a tactical advantage over a guy without. My argument is that that tactical advantage is not enough to warrent carry because it is slight and because of the strategic reality of civilian SD. Eliminating a bad option is a good idea imo.

 

[RoninPimp]

I also agree with MardiGras Bandit that your creator give hand is better than a short stick for gripping.

 

[frank raud]

I can't see that being any better then a empty handed grip, it seems weaker if anything. I can see the usefulness of pocket sticks for hammerfisting someone, but I can't see them helping grappling at all.

Anyone know where any pictures demonstrating pocket stick joint locks are?

Get Tak Kubota's book Close Encounters.

 

[Flatlander]

So, there's value in utilizing a pocket stick vs. no pocket stick, but your preference would be for using pepper spray instead. Is that an accurate summary of your post?

 

[RoninPimp]

So, there's value in utilizing a pocket stick vs. no pocket stick, but your preference would be for using pepper spray instead. Is that an accurate summary of your post?

-Tactical advantage? Yes. SD value? No. I personally am undecided on pepper spray, but some people whose opinion I value, believe in it. It does provide greater distance than any other less than lethal "option".

 

[RoninPimp]

Get Tak Kubota's book Close Encounters.

-I'll try to check this out at some point, but I do have my doubts. Got book reference from somebody that doesn't have a vested interest in their use?

 

[MardiGras Bandit]

I just watched the videos of the joint lock techniques. The disarm was bad (but I guess it is workable) and the lockflow thing was ridiculous. Not only were both the techniques terrible, the pocketstick was completely irrelevant to either one. It provided no extra leverage or power, if anything I'd guess it was in the way.

I tired to find a review of the book online, but couldn't. I did find a Kubotan site which said this:

For those proficient in martial arts that emphasize grappling and joint locks, the Kubotan provides added leverage. Wrist locks, arm bars, come-alongs, chokes, and leg locks instantly become more agonizing with the Kubotan. The Kubotan can be used to dig into the wrist or elbow joint. Similarly, a captured leg can immobilized with grinding pressure to the ankle or knee. In life threatening circumstances, the Kubotan can intensify choking techniques and, if need be, crush an assailant's trachea. Indeed, nearly all joint locking techniques common to Jujutsu and Aiki-Jutsu become easier to apply with the Kubotan.

No, no they don't. There is absolutely nothing useful a pocketstick can do to improve grappling techniques. Just for fun, I'm going to test my theory and grapple holding a minimag tommorow.

 

[Andrew Green]

No, no they don't. There is absolutely nothing useful a pocketstick can do to improve grappling techniques. Just for fun, I'm going to test my theory and grapple holding a minimag tommorow.

There is useful things you can do, but IMO you loose more useful things then you gain.

 

[MJS]

-I never ignore real questions that are on topic. What I mean is pain and bruises per the typical description of pocket stick use. What I have seen demonstrated and what I have seen pictures of is similar to the video clip links posted. They are worthless against a real resisting opponent. They may cause slight pain and bruising. They will not stop a person in attack mode. The only hope is striking with one and that, especially with a light plastic one, leaves a lot to be desired imo. Those tactical reasons, and their bad fit into SD strategy means they don't deserve serious consideration as an "option" imo.

What I mean by SD strategy is the ideal of being able to carry less than lethal options and deadly force options. Pepper spray and empty hands are perfectly capable for less than lethal situations. A club, knife, or firearm or all 3 depending on your location/politics/laws/ability for deadly force. The pocket stick doesn't make sense anywhere imo. It adds little to a less than lethal situation, but could be considered an escalation. And it is no where near lethal enough for a situation requiring lethal force.

So I agree that, with all other things being equal, a guy with one has a tactical advantage over a guy without. My argument is that that tactical advantage is not enough to warrent carry because it is slight and because of the strategic reality of civilian SD. Eliminating a bad option is a good idea imo.

Ronin, question for you. Have you done any training with the pocket stick, or are you basing your opinion of it, off of what you've seen others do? The reason I ask, is because it is possible for 2 people to be shown a technique, with one person having difficulty applying it, and the other having no toruble at all.

I'm also a bit confused by your last paragraph. You say that there is a tactical advantage to carrying one, but then you go on to say that its not enough to warrant carrying one?

IMHO, I personally don't see the pocket stick as a fight stopper, but simply something to buy someone some time in between moves. If it did no more than cause a momentary distraction, IMO, it would be worth it.

Just my .02

Mike

 

[MJS]

I don't understand how a pocket stick could help with a joint lock. I can only see it hindering the grips necessary to grapple. Can anyone explain this claim?

Depending on how its being used, it can be effective in a controlling situation. Using something slightly longer, such as a Kali stick, this can in fact cause some pain. Again, the majority of it is going to come down to a) being able to apply it, and b) having a knowledgeable teacher to show you the correct ways of using it.

Mike

 

[Jonathan Randall]

Ronin, question for you. Have you done any training with the pocket stick, or are you basing your opinion of it, off of what you've seen others do? The reason I ask, is because it is possible for 2 people to be shown a technique, with one person having difficulty applying it, and the other having no toruble at all.

IMHO, I personally don't see the pocket stick as a fight stopper, but simply something to buy someone some time in between moves. If it did no more than cause a momentary distraction, IMO, it would be worth it.
Mike

IMO, the kubotan applied expertly to a vulnerable spot would very likely be a fight stopper. Depends who you come up against, though. Honestly, though, I'm not a big fan of using short sticks for joint locks - then again, I'm terrible at locks, anyway, so my opinion is less than expert here.

Good point on the techniques. I had a terrible time getting joint locks to work - even the most simple ones, yet many of my classmates picked them up easily. It took me longer to go up a single Kyu rank in JJJ than it did to make brown in a striking art.

 

[MardiGras Bandit]

There is useful things you can do, but IMO you loose more useful things then you gain.

The only grappling use I could see it having in a fight is to stab at soft spots to try and create openings for subs or sweeps (which can be done just as easily with fingers or fists). That's not how it is being advertised; the claim is that it will give greater leverage and control. I can't see that being the case, so I'll play with it and see if I'm right.

 

[MJS]

IMO, the kubotan applied expertly would very likely be a fight stopper. Depends who you come up against, though.

Good point. The eye may be a stopper, but somewhere else on the body, ie: arm, chest, may cause that momentary distraction.

Mike

 

[bignick]

All I know is that in my experience training with the yawara, they are very effective and very painful. MardiGras, I bet your not gonna have any luck with your little experience and report this to us as proof. It is just like any other skill or tool, it requires training and practice to gain proficiency. That'd be like saying..."even though I don't know anything about groundwork, I don't think it works, and to prove it I'm gonna go roll with an experienced BJJer" it just doesn't make sense. And it won't work in either situation...

The extra leverage is real and painful. I've been training with one for about 3 1/2 years regularly and we do actually test against resisting opponents. I've almost blacked out from pain once or twice and I wasn't standing around letting people do that to me.

When it comes to taking people's advice, I tend to listen to those with experience, and my instructor has been teaching the kubotan, yawara, etc as part of his defensive tactics course to police officers for decades and after 20 years as a civilian police officer in addition to time spent in the Marines as an MP, he swears by them and claims he has more arrests on his mini-mag flashlite than any other piece of equipment in his arsenal.