Plum flower symbol

[Jens]

what's group of footwork patterns known as Mui Fa Jong, tactics, angles of attack and counter attack does the wing chun Plum Flower symbol teach in your linage?
Why is this symbol so paramount to attaining a more profound understanding of wing chun?

 

[wckf92]

Hi Jens.
I suppose it depends on which pattern MFJ you're talking about...
Cool topic though!

 

[Jens]

Hi Jens.
I suppose it depends on which pattern MFJ you're talking about...
Cool topic though!

Some branches of wing chun use a 6 post configuration while others use a 5 posts configuration. which one do you use in your particular linage and why?

 

[wckf92]

Some branches of wing chun use a 6 post configuration while others use a 5 posts configuration. which one do you use in your particular linage and why?

Mui fa in wc (as far as I know) ONLY refers to the 6 post version.

 

[KPM]

what's group of footwork patterns known as Mui Fa Jong, tactics, angles of attack and counter attack does the wing chun Plum Flower symbol teach in your linage?
Why is this symbol so paramount to attaining a more profound understanding of wing chun?

I learned the stepping pattern for the 6 post configuration in the Augustine Fong lineage many many years ago. The ironic thing is that if you are actually up on top of the posts if you try to stay on your heels you will fall on your backside! So even those lineages that pivot on the heels and keep the weight back near the heel in their footwork often end up using the K1 point when they step up onto the posts! That might be an indication of how the Wing Chun mechanic was originally designed.....or not.

I haven't seen any mention or use of the Plum Blossom Posts or pattern in Pin Sun Wing Chun. I'm sure a lot of the footwork patterns and angling are in Pin Sun, but I haven't seen the Mui Fa Jong as a specific training method in Pin Sun. It would be interesting to know if it is in Sum Nun/Yuen Kay Shan Wing Chun.

But it hasn't been something I have thought about or trained for a very long time.

So Jens, what do you see the Mui Fa Jong teaching? What is the theory for how it is used in fighting?

 

[ShortBridge]

The 5 post version is a shamrock, not a plum blossom. They use it in Irish bare knuckles pugilism, I think, but not Wing Chun.

 

[geezer]

The 5 post version is a shamrock, not a plum blossom. They use it in Irish bare knuckles pugilism, I think, but not Wing Chun.

Actually, in Leung Ting's book on the wooden dummy (the little blue one), he goes into the relationship of the common six post and the "five dot" pattern.

I did chalk out the six point pattern under my dummy and it was sort helpful. But sometimes I think people work too hard at trying to fit their technique to complex, theoretical patterns. Sometimes it's a stretch and messes with functionality.

Personally, I think some people get too obsessed with abstract patterns over simple, practical footwork that works in relation to an opponent.

Now can anybody explain the relationship of the three-leaf shamrock pattern and the four-leaf pattern in Irish boxing ?

 

[ShortBridge]

I don't have tape or lines on the floor around the dummy in my school because my students are different shapes and sizes. Because the dummy is one size and doesn't move, I want my students to step to the correct range for them rather than the positons that I step to. I don't want their taan sao (for example) to be either flat or collapsed because they were trying to conform to an exact position.

 

[KPM]

I'm wondering if the Plum Blossom pattern might be useful on a rather basic level simply by breaking out parts of it to practice footwork patterns.....much like the Langkha patterns in used in Silat.

 

[Danny T]

I think the major reason for the Mui Fa Jong training is to increase balance and leg strength. My understanding is as the practitioner became proficient they would begin working on taller as well as smaller diameter poles. The taller poles create a stronger psychological pressure of being more dangerous and the smaller diameter poles actually make it more difficult.

 

[Jens]

So Jens, what do you see the Mui Fa Jong teaching? What is the theory for how it is used in fighting?

In addition to what's have already been mentioned above about improving balance and leg strength. Tactically the plum blossom posts are arranged in a very specific order so you can never step in a direct straight line, this means that with every step there will always be an adjustment in both distance as well as facing angle in relation to the opponent's line of attack. All wing chun offensive footwork regardless of wck linage comes directly from the Plum Blossom posts stepping. Plum blossom stepping is a like a road mad which gives you a direct route of how to get to the opponent while remaining off his attacking line.
Then there is the wing chun baat gwa stepping which is more counter offensive in nature and comprises the other 50% of the art's footwork. Like two sides of the same coin wing chun footwork have both an offensive or counter offensive nature (yin/yang), but never purely defensive.
When these two types of stepping are merged, it allows for infinite possibilities of stepping and angular movements 360 degrees. That's when the wing chun footwork becomes fully alive and flowing in the moment, exactly how the art was intended to be applied.

Actually, in Leung Ting's book on the wooden dummy (the little blue one), he goes into the relationship of the common six post and the "five dot" pattern.

What's the relationship of the common six post and the "five dot" pattern?

 

[wckf92]

In addition to what's have already been mentioned above about improving balance and leg strength. Tactically the plum blossom posts are arranged in a very specific order so you can never step in a direct straight line, this means that with every step there will always be an adjustment in both distance as well as facing angle in relation to the opponent's line of attack. All wing chun offensive footwork regardless of wck linage comes directly from the Plum Blossom posts stepping. Plum blossom stepping is a like a road mad which gives you a direct route of how to get to the opponent while remaining off his attacking line.
Then there is the wing chun baat gwa stepping which is more counter offensive in nature and comprises the other 50% of the art's footwork. Like two sides of the same coin wing chun footwork have both an offensive or counter offensive nature (yin/yang), but never purely defensive.
When these two types of stepping are merged, it allows for infinite possibilities of stepping and angular movements. That's when the wing chun footwork becomes fully alive and flowing in the moment which was how the art was intended to be applied.

Good post Jens

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

One of my favor footwork pattern is to line up my back foot with my opponent's feet. I then step in my leading foot and enter. Without knowing where my opponent's feet position are, I can't do that.

The concern of the "plum blossom posts" training is there is no reference to your opponent's feet position. The way you will move should depend on where your opponent's feet location is.

You can obtain the same training (even better) by marking

- several X marks on the ground as your feet current position and you possible future feet position.
- R as your opponent's right foot position and L as your opponent's left foot position.

Depending on your opponent's feet position, you can

1. avoid crossing your legs,
2. avoid moving into your opponent's back hand striking range.
3. obtain lining up your back foot with your opponent's feet.
4. obtain stepping in between your opponent's feet.
5. ...

 

[DanT]

I think the major reason for the Mui Fa Jong training is to increase balance and leg strength. My understanding is as the practitioner became proficient they would begin working on taller as well as smaller diameter poles. The taller poles create a stronger psychological pressure of being more dangerous and the smaller diameter poles actually make it more difficult.

This. For example, at a certain level, students train on 6 ft bamboo poles that are 2 inches in diameter. Very difficult indeed.

 

[wckf92]

One of my favor footwork pattern is to line up my back foot with my opponent's feet. I then step in my leading foot and enter. Without knowing where my opponent's feet position are, I can't do that.

The concern of the "plum blossom posts" training is there is no reference to your opponent's feet position. The way you will move should depend on where your opponent's feet location is.

You can obtain the same training (even better) by marking

- several X marks on the ground as your feet current position and you possible future feet position.
- R as your opponent's right foot position and L as your opponent's left foot position.

Depending on your opponent's feet position, you can

1. avoid crossing your legs,
2. avoid moving into your opponent's back hand striking range.
3. obtain lining up your back foot with your opponent's feet.
4. obtain stepping in between your opponent's feet.
5. ...

Interesting perspective....

 

[geezer]

This. For example, at a certain level, students train on 6 ft bamboo poles that are 2 inches in diameter. Very difficult indeed.

That would indeed be extremely difficult, so difficult in fact, that only very physically gifted students could master the skill ...and even then only after investing a lot of hours of practice.

Do you really believe that such an investment in time (at the expense of other training) would pay off in practical fighting skill?

 

[geezer]

...The concern of the "plum blossom posts" training is there is no reference to your opponent's feet position. The way you will move should depend on where your opponent's feet location is.

This is a good point.

 

[geezer]

...All wing chun offensive footwork regardless of wck linage comes directly from the Plum Blossom posts stepping.

I do not believe this is true of my lineage. Our fundamental footwork is a back-weighted "dragging step" and I don't see that working on the plum blossom piles to be particularly helpful in reinforcing our foundational footwork. I believe it is a probably relic of earlier forms of southern kung fu training and accordingly is also used in styles other than Wing Chun.

...When these two types of stepping are merged, it allows for infinite possibilities of stepping and angular movements 360 degrees. That's when the wing chun footwork becomes fully alive and flowing in the moment, exactly how the art was intended to be applied.

You can have infinite possibilities and infinite angles with very simple stepping. My old sifu used to say that the Wing Chun man is like the king on the chess board. His steps are short, but can move in any direction at will. I'd say the same is true of western boxers.

 

[Jens]

I do not believe this is true of my lineage. Our fundamental footwork is a back-weighted "dragging step" and I don't see that working on the plum blossom piles to be particularly helpful in reinforcing our foundational footwork. I believe it is a probably relic of earlier forms of southern kung fu training and accordingly is also used in styles other than Wing Chun.

When I said "All wing chun offensive footwork regardless of wck linage comes directly from the Plum Blossom posts stepping." I meant the root of all wing chun offensive footwork came directly from the Plum Blossom posts stepping, of course your old sifu may have modified the footwork to suit his particular needs which is reflected by his experience.

Actually, in Leung Ting's book on the wooden dummy (the little blue one), he goes into the relationship of the common six post and the "five dot" pattern.

What's the relationship of the common six post and the "five dot" pattern?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

your old sifu may have modified the footwork to suit his particular needs which is reflected by his experience.

Agree! You may like to move toward your opponent's

- side door (blind side) to avoid his back hand striking.
- front door to crash his rooting (入马 Ru Ma).