Plum flower symbol

[jlq]

geezer,

the characters used are:

秘笈

Bei3 Kap1

It literallly means "secret book/manuscript" and is understood that way in a gong fu context.

However, it is used more colloqially to express things like "the secret" or "trick to" doing something well or the right way is...

So a bei kap might be a very important detail about how a technique is executed or applied.

The Kap1 you are referring to - to cover sth with a lid, f.ex. - is 扱, so even though the pronunciation is identical, the meaning is totally different.

 

[jlq]

Jens,

part 1 (the rest will follow later as I don't have too much time right now )

You posted a video where a "Cho Ga Sifu" mentions plum flower footwork and take this evidence to support your idea.

I can understand that - it is a logical conclusion, after all a "Cho Ga Sifu" talks about plum flower steps, so the these steps must be Cho Ga.

However, this demonstrates lack of critical thinking and analysis, but of course it is difficult to be critical when one doesn't have enough information about certain things - this is not targeted at you, but a general observation and applies to each and all of us.



In this case the Sifu is a rather controversial person, as you no doubt are aware of.



But no need to get into that.

What is more relevant is that if you have followed his "development" over the years, you will see that he has long ago stopped talking about things Cho Ga and is consulting other sources to validate his ideas and as a basis for constructing his own version of what he thinks Wing Chun should be like...

The particular plum flower footwork he is talking about in the video you posted is from a certain gong fu classic dating back to the 18th century.

If you don't know this classic - or if you didn't watch enough of hos videos to do the math - it is only natural to conclude what you did.

You seem to jump to conclusions easily, grasping for anything that on the surface seems to support your view - you quoting "Complete Wing Chun" is another example...



So, things are not always what they seem - knowing the background, the context, etc. will help seeing things for what they are...

 

[jlq]

Jens,

part two

I don't really see why you keep alluding to me referring to information gleaned from the internet and books?

I believe, I was quite clear about the fact that my information comes directly from personal interaction with people and personal experience being a student/training at various schools.

Why do you ignore that and focus on mentioning association dinners? That references was made primarily to document that the plum flower symbol that you asked about in the OP is not of great enough importance to be used as a school logo on the Mainland - as opposed to HK. So how can that not be evidence? Should be clear from my previous explanation, but perhaps you choose to be purposefully oblique?



Anyway, based on what you wrote, it seems you don't have any idea about what a martial art association dinners are about and how they work - talking about/explaining gong fu only actually happens very rarely at such events. But they are good for developing "gwaan1 hai6" which is essential if you want to find out various things...



Granted, even what people tell you in person, show you and even teach you might be nonsense - but still...



Much better to learn things directly from the horse's mouth (or as close to it as one can) rather than having to rely on bits and pieces from the internet and books as you do - or at least did in this thread here.

If you don't think talking to or even learning from senior people in various schools constitute convincing evidence, but rather believe what little you can glean from books, internet discussion forums and maybe some more or less casual visits/exchanges with people who might be far removed from the source is enough for you to form a better picture than actually interacting with various senior people in various styles, that is entirely up to you...

But people who have actually looked into things won't be too impressed by your reasoning nor your conclusions.



Now, as far as personal experience goes...

You mentioned Lun Kai as a source - did you ask him this question personally? In Chinese? Or did you hear this from someone else? Do you know exactly what he said? What else did he actually say? Did you/or someone else ask into the exact details about the situation? These are just a few of the interesting questions to ask if one wants to learn more about the situation...

Then you throw out a lot of names Ku Lo Wing Chun, Yuen Kay Shan Wing Chun, Pao Fa Lien Wing Chun, Cho Ga Wing Chun...

Have you actually trained in all these styles to fully know what they contain and what not? And have you done any bai si to have access to the indoor stuff?
If not how can you speak with authority about what they have or not?



Anyway, your mind seems to be made up, so no need to explain or discuss this any further.

In your initial post you stated:

"Why is this symbol so paramount to attaining a more profound understanding of wing chun?"

Then this:

When I said "All wing chun offensive footwork regardless of wck linage comes directly from the Plum Blossom posts stepping." I meant the root of all wing chun offensive footwork came directly from the Plum Blossom posts stepping,

And this:

Just to be clear I never said anything about all branches of wing chun using the term "plum flower posts stepping" or "the plum flower logo", what I did say is I can clearly see all the wing chun offensive stepping and footwork patterns regardless of wing chun linages within the plum flower posts stepping. My facts or evidence are right there

So then, what is it?

First you bare talking about the symbol and how paramount it is, but then suddenly it is about some "plum flower post steps" from which all Wing Chun derive their footwork... And finally it amounts to what "people can see if they know what they are looking for"...

I am curious as to what exactly you think this "plum flower post footwork" is, but based on your posting history, I doubt any explanation will be forthcoming.

FWIW you are correct that most Wing Chun has the same type of steps, stances, etc. some more/some less than others but a) there is nothing particularly advanced or really profound about these and b) they are far from unique to Wing Chun - as far as I have seen up to this point. All simple and practical stuff also found in other southern Chinese martial arts. After all things such as "saam gok bo" and "zhizhibo" are already mentioned in the ancient Siulam manuscript I mentioned in another post.

So, knowing how martial arts developed it can reasonbly be assumed that footwork and steps are most likely derived from application than some symbol.

As far as what people can see in things, I guess it depends on one's imagination and the level of abstraction one employs when looking for connections and similarities. Just like some people can clearly see Taigekkuen and Ngor Mei Hei Gong in Wing Chun because they know what they are looking for...



So, my questions to you still stand:

a) which version of YM WCK do you practice and who did you learn from?

b) what exactly do you think the "Baat Gwa" footwork is?

c) since you make sweeping statements about a lot of branches of Wing Chun, which ones have you actually experienced and what was the extent of that exposure? And who was involved?

Just trying to stimulate a good discussion here.



Looking forward to learning more details.

 

[Jens]

I don't really see why you keep alluding to me referring to information gleaned from the internet and books?

I was not alluding to you referring to information gleaned from the internet and books, I was referring to you suggesting that my only source of information was gleaned from the internet and books.

You mentioned Lun Kai as a source - did you ask him this question personally? In Chinese? Or did you hear this from someone else? Do you know exactly what he said? What else did he actually say? Did you/or someone else ask into the exact details about the situation? These are just a few of the interesting questions to ask if one wants to learn more about the situation...

A good friend of mine was a long time direct student of sifu Lun Kai, he translated what sifu Lun said for me

Then you throw out a lot of names Ku Lo Wing Chun, Yuen Kay Shan Wing Chun, Pao Fa Lien Wing Chun, Cho Ga Wing Chun...

Have you actually trained in all these styles to fully know what they contain and what not? And have you done any bai si to have access to the indoor stuff? If not how can you speak with authority about what they have or not?

I have friends who are indoor deciples in the branches of wck that I've mentioned in my earlier post who've openly shared their knowledge with me, so i don't necessarily have to be an indoor student myself. I've seen enough of these systems as well as had indepth discussions with these individuals, Some of whom I may add are sifus in their particular branches of wing chun. Everyone is free to believe what they want right. So how about we agree to disagree on this one and leave it at that.

a) which version of YM WCK do you practice and who did you learn from?

My sifu was a private student of Yip Man, and would like to remain anonymous, so out of respect for him, I have not divulge his name on here

b) what exactly do you think the "Baat Gwa" footwork is?

it has to do with 8 directional stepping and angles of attack.

c) since you make sweeping statements about a lot of branches of Wing Chun, which ones have you actually experienced and what was the extent of that exposure? And who was involved?

I have personally studied 3 of the branches of wing chun that I mentioned earlier and I will not divulge the names of the individuals whom shared information with me from these particular branches to protect their privacy.



I've answered your questions, how about reciprocating
My questions to you still stand:

You mentioned:

I have a background in various lineages of Wing Chun, but I gave that up to learn Cho Ga Wing Chun.

a) Did you learn Cho Ga Wing Chun through the Cho family in penang malaysia or in Punyu China? and who did you learn from?

b) Is this close to what you practice in your Cho Ga wing chun linage?

As far as I understood it from asking Gwok Fu's son about it, there is no Mui Fa pattern used in the Wing Chun YM taught him in the early 1940s. The talk about the Baat Gwa as extremely important important and is used to explain many of the system's strategies and techniques.

c) What did Gwok Fu's son say specifically regarding the Baat Gwa and it's importance used to explain many of the system's strategies and techniques ?

 

[jlq]

Jens,

Agreeing to disagree is probably the best thing considering the way our exchange has been going.



Thank you very much for the answers...

But you actually avoided giving any information.

Hm... All this secrecy...



I am pretty sure you have visited Hendrik and tried to siphon some information from him - but I would take care to trust whatever he - and compatriots - might have told you, if I were you.

Critical thinking is a must when dealing with those "sources"...



Anyway, enough of that.

To your questions:

The Cho Ga I am learning is not the version displayed in the video you linked to.

My Sifu... I am sorry, I have to respect his privacy, so I cannot name him.

(Seriously, though: Add me on Facebook or even better - on Whatsapp - and I will tell you all about it).

Baat Gwa Footwork: In Gwok Fu's Wing Chun it is a basic stepping drill for beginners, done as part of a "warm up" and it is not done in 8 directions.

 

[Parky]

Jens,



I am pretty sure you have visited Hendrik and tried to siphon some information from him - but I would take care to trust whatever he - and compatriots - might have told you, if I were you.

Critical thinking is a must when dealing with those "sources"...


.

Hendrik...yeah, that there is a special kind of crazy!