Pinan to Pyung Ahn

[Makalakumu]

My guess, since I didn't know Itosu personally, (Gene might, as he's that old. :-D ) is the intended target is different. With a kick int he manner that I described, the target is quite flexible. That is, one can kick inside the knee, the knee itself, the groin, the inside of the leg, whichever presents itself. A low side kick is largely limited to the inside or outside aspects of the knee.

Rob

That makes alot of sense. I'll have to play around with that. One other thing I like about the side kick in Pyung Ahn Sa Dan, however, is the sickle action of the foot. One can hook and pull on the retraction.

 

[Gene Williams]

That makes alot of sense. I'll have to play around with that. One other thing I like about the side kick in Pyung Ahn Sa Dan, however, is the sickle action of the foot. One can hook and pull on the retraction.

What are you "hooking and pulling?" That's funny...another aspect of Okinawan karate ryu is that you don't "play around with that." It is either a front kick or it isn't. The student doesn't get to choose which technique goes in the kata. You may also be making the popular error of trying to find too much in the kata or in a technique. In the Okinawan version of that kata, there is no "sickle action of the foot," and you aren't hooking or pulling anything. It is a front kick to the abdomen, usually a front thrust kick, but a snap kick is often done. Kata are not considered as "raw material" for a student to play with and see what he can come up with. The student's ideas are being shaped, not consulted. I guess we just live in different martial arts worlds.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

What are you "hooking and pulling?" That's funny...another aspect of Okinawan karate ryu is that you don't "play around with that." .

Perhaps because he's speaking of the Tang Soo Do form, not Okinawan karate?

Kata are not considered as "raw material" for a student to play with and see what he can come up with. The student's ideas are being shaped, not consulted. I guess we just live in different martial arts worlds.

Apparently you do, and I think I prefer his. Different strokes for different folks. However, I recognize the fact that some have difficulty working in an environment unless everything that isn't compulsory is forbidden.

 

[Gene Williams]

Perhaps because he's speaking of the Tang Soo Do form, not Okinawan karate?



Apparently you do, and I think I prefer his. Different strokes for different folks. However, I recognize the fact that some have difficulty working in an environment unless everything that isn't compulsory is forbidden.

You are deliberately misinterpreting what I said so that you can try and use a clever quote. He is speaking of a TSD bastardization of an Okinawan form. If you like that world, have fun. There are those who cannot work in any structured environment that includes requirements, tradition, authority, and the concept of "ryu" and "dojo." These folks attack such things as "rigid" and "compulsory" without a clue as to what that environment is all about. I think it is probably an authority problem that goes back to mommy and daddy or something like that. Anyway, back to the "studio" with you.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

You are deliberately misinterpreting what I said so that you can try and use a clever quote. He is speaking of a TSD bastardization of an Okinawan form.

A Korean take away of that form, not bastardization. The term "bastardization" is derogatory and does not apply here. All arts are derivative, including yours, or Karate would not have been known as "China Hand" until last century. I misunderstood neither your post nor your attitude. What do you get out of running other arts down, anyway? Are you not confident enough in your own accomplishments?

If you like that world, have fun. There are those who cannot work in any structured environment that includes requirements, tradition, authority, and the concept of "ryu" and "dojo."

I was speaking of prefering his world where martial artists did not go out of their way to run down other artists and arts and where there was some place for discovery and no place for megalomania. Upnorthkyosa is beyond first dan in his art and certainly has a right to consider different possible purposes for techniques in his forms.

 

[Bester]

He is speaking of a TSD bastardization of an Okinawan form.

So, what's you opinion of the Arnis folks? Seems their forms are yet another "bastardization" of "Kara-te".

Mr. Williams, you're in a Tang Soo Do forum. Regardless of how you see things, here the "correct" way is Korean, not Japanese. Regardless of where things may have "developed", this isn't "Kara-te".

Might I suggest you take a less belligerent attitude as well? You points might be taken more seriously.

 

[Kosokun]

I was speaking of prefering his world where martial artists did not go out of their way to run down other artists and arts and where there was some place for discovery and no place for megalomania.

Sadly, I've never encountered such a place in either Korean, Chinese, Filipino, Brazilian or Japanese MA.

Rob

 

[arnisador]

So, what's you opinion of the Arnis folks? Seems their forms are yet another "bastardization" of "Kara-te".

Yeah, but they were taken pretty literally from Karate--the individual movements are very Shotokan, though many people interpret them more broadly.

But it's a good point that forms change when they reach new cultures. On the other hand, the gradual change of the Chinese forms in Okinawa is different from the forced change in Korea.

Someone mentioned that Sanchin is the best known of the Chinese forms that made it to Okinawan..Seisan, Sanseiryu, and many others are of Chinese origin too, though.

 

[Makalakumu]

What are you "hooking and pulling?"

Soto Gama. If my uki attempts to twist out of my joint lock, I'll hook their post leg and take their balance and suddenly they'll be thinking about something else...

That's funny...another aspect of Okinawan karate ryu is that you don't "play around with that." It is either a front kick or it isn't. The student doesn't get to choose which technique goes in the kata.

Sir, who chooses which techniques go into the kata? I have certainly seen lots of interpretations.

One of the reasons that my teacher withdrew from the Soo Bahk Do federation is because he felt that they were becoming to static. Innovation was limited only to the illuminated few...

You may also be making the popular error of trying to find too much in the kata or in a technique. In the Okinawan version of that kata, there is no "sickle action of the foot," and you aren't hooking or pulling anything. It is a front kick to the abdomen, usually a front thrust kick, but a snap kick is often done.

I appreciate your comments and I will take them into consideration when practicing some of these techniques. I value your experience.

Kata are not considered as "raw material" for a student to play with and see what he can come up with. The student's ideas are being shaped, not consulted.

In a very semiotic way, kata have become symbols in which the bunkai depend on the symbol user and the context of interpretation. Epistomologically, if students are being shaped toward one truth, then that one line is determined by the symbol user and the context. However, there may be many others...

I guess we just live in different martial arts worlds.

I'm okay with that. Thank you for your comments thus far.

:asian:

upnorthkyosa

 

[Gene Williams]

Innovating with bunkai is one thing and certainly no problem. Of course, many people are "reaching" a bit when they come up with some things. The bunkai should at least be true to the moves and spirit of the kata. When it comes to changing tha actual moves in the kata, that can get to be a problem. Even though Shito ryu and Goju ryu do the kata Seipai , for instance, slightly differently it is easily recognized as the same kata. Goju may shift to a 45 degree angle at one point wheras Shito ryu shifts 90 degrees, Goju may bring the arm and open hand at the beginning from over top and Shito may bring it around from the chest, etc. We all know the differences. Now, if someone decides to put in a high side kick there, or add a kick or two it changes the whole kata. You can't relativize everything. Semiotically, a stop sign is a stop sign if we are to have any meaningful social structure at all. I have called the kata the canons of karate. It is sort of like the Apostle's Creed...many great and different sermons or homilies can be preached about it, we admire the memorable efforts at presenting it, but don't go changing the words.
The practice of kata is supposed to allow certain things to happen to the individual over time. Many of those things are based upon the long term repetition and study of the kata as it was taught. Eventually, the kata becomes second nature, so to speak, and because of the mental and physical relaxation, the zanshin, shibumi, etc. that develop, the karateka gains greater physical ability and spiritual understanding. If we are always "messing with" the kata, those things can't happen. Maybe it is sort of like the difference between representational art and abstract art, I like representational art (could you have guessed ). A person is a person and a tree is a tree, not some smear on a canvas that is left up to the ideas of the viewer.

 

[Grenadier]

Do you remember the styles of the forms you viewed?

Yes.

A Shotokan school used the crescent kick, combined with the elbow block / backfist.

One particular Wado school also used the above.

A different Wado school dropped the kick entirely, and went straight into the elbow block / backfist.

One TSD school used the front kick in lieu of the crescent kick.

Who's right? Who's wrong? I honestly don't know, since each style, and possible school within a style, can have different interpretations on how a kata is performed, or what the purpose is.

 

[The Kai]

Please change your avatar,

 

[mtabone]

Gene Williams,

I have read your post and you can not say generalizations like, BASTERDIZED karate…. And the like when talking about Tang Soo Do.

Many Tang Soo Do organizations do it differently from the next.

You have obviously not seen someone from the Tang Soo Do Mi Guk Kwan do these forms. We breath every movement. And while some moves are different from Okinawan style of kata, they are damn near close.

And, it does not make one right, and another wrong, just different.

BTW, on a related topic, do you know for sure if the forms that are hundreds of years old in origin where done the same way they are done today?

Tang Soo!
Michael Tabone

 

[Akashiro Tamaya]

You have obviously not seen someone from the Tang Soo Do Mi Guk Kwan do these forms. We breath every movement. And while some moves are different from Okinawan style of kata, they are damn near close.

Tang Soo!
Michael Tabone

Which tang soo do hyung resembles Okinawan Kata ? By the way in case you used a Shotokan kata as a referenced point , please note that Shotokan is a Japanese system not Okinawan. Thanks

 

[Makalakumu]

Which tang soo do hyung resembles Okinawan Kata ? By the way in case you used a Shotokan kata as a referenced point , please note that Shotokan is a Japanese system not Okinawan. Thanks

The subject of this thread is about the pinan and pyung ahn hyungs. In shotokan, these forms are called Heien. These forms developed in okinawa, moved to japan and then moved to korea. I think it is interesting to note the geographic line this knowledge spread. I wonder if other concepts spread in similar lines?

 

[Akashiro Tamaya]

The subject of this thread is about the pinan and pyung ahn hyungs. In shotokan, these forms are called Heien. These forms developed in okinawa, moved to japan and then moved to korea. I think it is interesting to note the geographic line this knowledge spread. I wonder if other concepts spread in similar lines?

John, please don't view this as a flaming response. I was under the impression that the forms or Hyung that the founder of Tang Soo Do taught were lifted out from a book. So technically it never " moved" to korea. General Choi's (I believed studied in Japan and recieved a Nidan grade under Chotoku Kyan or I could be wrong) ITF's have also "Bastardized" the Japanese Kata.

PS: The correct spelling of the Shotokan kata is " Heian" not "Heien". I realized it could be a typo but hope this helps.

 

[Makalakumu]

John, please don't view this as a flaming response. I was under the impression that the forms or Hyung that the founder of Tang Soo Do taught were lifted out from a book. So technically it never " moved" to korea. General Choi's (I believed studied in Japan and recieved a Nidan grade under Chotoku Kyan or I could be wrong) ITF's have also "Bastardized" the Japanese Kata.

PS: The correct spelling of the Shotokan kata is " Heian" not "Heien". I realized it could be a typo but hope this helps.

The subject of Hwang Kee's training is a very interesting topic. There are accounts that say he got them out of books and there are others that claim he trained with this or that person. This subject is another thread altogether.

 

[mtabone]

Akashiro Tamaya,

Point taken. I was just in such a hurry to post last time, I was not thinking.

:asian: Thank You.

Michael TAbone

 

[Kosokun]

Gen Choi studied with Gichin Funakoshi, the founder of Shotokan. not Kyan. Per. Gen Choi in a TKD Times article in 2000.

Rob

John, please don't view this as a flaming response. I was under the impression that the forms or Hyung that the founder of Tang Soo Do taught were lifted out from a book. So technically it never " moved" to korea. General Choi's (I believed studied in Japan and recieved a Nidan grade under Chotoku Kyan or I could be wrong) ITF's have also "Bastardized" the Japanese Kata.

PS: The correct spelling of the Shotokan kata is " Heian" not "Heien". I realized it could be a typo but hope this helps.

 

[rmclain]

The founder of the Chang Moo Kwan (1946) in Korea, Byung In Yoon, studied under Kanken Toyama at Nihon University in Japan. Toyama was a student of Anko Itosu in Okinawa.

According to my teacher who began training in 1950 in Korea, most of the schools he saw and students he met were learning the pyung ahn forms and other karate forms. So, there is another link for the pyung ahn forms in Korea besides the Moo Duk Won.

R. McLain