Picking a martial art?

[Drose427]

I feel similarly about 1 step sparrings particularly those using a kick to block a punch. When I learnt one similar, I thought "jeesh, I hope the kids don't think this is really a way to block a punch."

Generally this falls into the "test one step" category. Gotta show off flexibility and accuracy, but like you said a good instructor shouldnt let their students think thats really how you should block a punch.

 

[Gnarlie]

I'm not against the idea of using a foot to clear a guard if the opportunity arises, but I don't believe one step is a good place to demonstrate the idea as it is misleading.

 

[ShotoNoob]

I'm not sure I would choose that as a good example of step sparring to illustrate what Taekwondo is capable of. They are clearly still at the 'forging' stage. Though the basic technical form is OK if looked at in isolation, the application of technique is in my view highly unrealistic, even as a bridge between basics and freestyle sparring.
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Hate to hide behind Funakoshi BUT.... there is a reason for training this traditional way. If you are a pure reality-TYPE guy and sport-based fighter, then NO, THESE ARE NOT FOR YOU.
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They serve the purpose you say they don't. But how you are looking these exercises, they will never work for you....
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The distancing is off, the combos are not logical from a cause and effect perspective, blocking with the foot is frankly ludicrous unless it's incidental (although it seems to be a favourite) and the flappy double kicking is superfluous, high risk, and inferior to a single powerful blow. What little close work there is does not disturb the attacker's balance enough to achieve the results shown without a play-along opponent.

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I think there's a tread on criticizing vs. critique. I like to critique and you have my style on that re the BJJ vs. striking T's. Danny T. would say if you don't like these, don't do 'em.

There are better examples of Taekwondo close work out there.

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People dump on Shotokan tradition all the time same way. I can dump on Shotokan too.

I feel similarly about 1 step sparrings particularly those using a kick to block a punch. When I learnt one similar, I thought "jeesh, I hope the kids don't think this is really a way to block a punch."

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Again, I can agree with the practical form of the (traditional karate) low block the way it is often demonstrated. Frankly, the low block (it's form) can get you into as much trouble as it can get you out of. This concept has also been covered in historic MT Forum posts.
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However, the 1-steps are how I came about to really focus on traditional karate "mental clarity," to borrow the phrase from that T. KIME is another mental discipline term that applies here. Of course, if all you can see it Gracie's wiping out strikers like the uke here... then the import of these mental concepts is lost to your type of training....
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The most relevant part of these comments, IMO, is "forging." And then of course what are poster's defining as such....

 

[ShotoNoob]

Generally this falls into the "test one step" category. Gotta show off flexibility and accuracy, but like you said a good instructor shouldnt let their students think thats really how you should block a punch.

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Checked out your site. You hang with some very tough guys. I think that has stilted your overall conclusions. I believe it was you who dismissed my Lyoto Machida LOSS vid (without analysis). So to be fair, I'll be the standup guy and post another Karate vs. MT-Boxing full contact fight vid.

Happens to be Shotokan karate....the karate style people love to hate. Shotokan guy, this is not UFC but another MMA org, knocks bejisus out of MT opponent...
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You said all TMA fight with hands up guard. This Shotokan fights with conventional Shotokan kumite hands held low guard. His opponent holds hand up in typical MT kickboxing fashion, the way you say 'real' blocks work. Don't work at all for this guy. So you would be saying that the Shotokan stylist has a 'bad' instructor & the kickboxer has a 'good' instructor.
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And by the way, I'm not saying the hands up guard doesn't work, it just won't work against a dynamic striker....(see footnote)
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AND so begs the question, how did Shotokan guy learn to guard & strike so well.... including the distancing & timing you speak of. Was it 1-steps or free sparring?
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Footnote: with some qualification of course.

 

[Drose427]

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Checked out your site. You hang with some very tough guys. I think that has stilted your overall conclusions. I think it was you who dismissed my Lyoto Machida LOSS vid (without analysis). So to be fair, I'll be the standup guy and post another Karate vs. Boxing full contact fight vid.

Happens to be Shotokan karate....the style people love to hate. Shotokan guy, this is not UFC but another MMA org, knocks bejisus out of opponent...
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You said all TMA fight with hands up guard. This Shotokan fights with conventional Shotokan kumite hands held low guard. His opponent holds hand up in typical kickboxing fashion, the way you say 'real' blocks work. Don't work at all for this guy. So you would be saying that the Shotokan stylist has a 'bad' instructor & the kickboxer has a 'good' instructor.
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And by the way, I'm not saying the hands up guard doesn't work, it just won't work against a dynamic striker....
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AND so begs the question, how did Shotokan guy learn to guard & strike so well.... including the distancing & timing you speak of. Was it 1-steps or free sparring?

1. Machidas hands arent low at all.... Theyre not as tight, but theyre high enough he could easily block.

2. You're putting a lot of words in my mouth.

I never dismissed step sparring in this thread, the closest was commenting how certain onesteps are meant to show case accuracy and flexibility, not be realistic.

Nor have I ever said anything bad about any style of Karate. I've defended Karate several times on this site.

I train in both an MMA Gym and a Tang Soo Do School, dont twist my words and make opinions for me.

I dismissed your Machida Loss video because you were using it to implicate Shotokan was weaker than Muay Thai or other striking styles, when Machida has regularly used Shotokan to KO People from nearly every other striking style imaginable.

 

[ShotoNoob]

1. Machidas hands arent low at all.... Theyre not as tight, but theyre high enough he could easily block.

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Fair enough. They are low compared to typical kickboxing guard, IMO.

2. You're putting a lot of words in my mouth.

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Happens to me all the time too. Was commented on in the critique T.

I never dismissed step sparring in this thread, the closest was commenting how certain onesteps are meant to show case accuracy and flexibility, not be realistic.

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Now you are guilty. Certainly the point of my statement was the applicability to fighting, the post & vid are that reality context...

Nor have I ever said anything bad about any style of Karate. I've defended Karate several times on this site.

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I'm talking about some different points of view in a style we both support. That's a reality.

I train in both an MMA Gym and a Tang Soo Do School, dont twist my words and make opinions for me.

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So that's how you train. I train differently. Proves nothing by itself. I'm a stanch supporter of MMA too. Said so several time in several posts.... So include my words when you comment.

I dismissed your Machida Loss video because you were using it to implicate Shotokan was weaker than Muay Thai or other striking styles, when Machida has regularly used Shotokan to KO People from nearly every other striking style imaginable.

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In Your Mind. And BTW way, karate as seen in MMA, it has been the MT stylists who have dominated Lyoto Machida & Wonderboy Thompson. However, don't assume by a style label that I am making style-only conclusion when discussing my proposition. I think, however, the MT vs. Karate makes an interesting thesis. These two often seen to go head to head....
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The VALID conclusion that can be made from the Lyoto Machida vid is that Lyoto Machida's Karate / MMA is weaker than Shogun Rua's MT. Proven fact. It's a launching point for discussion. Realistically.
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YOu see, you used mental "head movement" to dodge what you thought I was portraying, when my "strike" wasn't what you thought.
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You aren't dealing with a Noob.... that was another play on words, "feint" in boxing lingo.
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Edit: I love Machida. He's not the last word on traditional karate. A super vid of Machida @ his best was the Rich Franklin fight. Rich Franklin was a former UFC champ I believe.

 

[ShotoNoob]

A Lot of Posters here think 1-steps are a limited, physical drills exercise.... I get it....

 

[Drose427]

A Lot of Posters here think 1-steps are a limited, physical drills exercise.... I get it....

Not a single person has said anything along those lines

 

[Gnarlie]

One steps are a limited exercise by their nature. That doesn't mean they are useless, and that's not what I said.

All I said was the example chosen was not a good one to illustrate close work or good one step.

If it's intended to illustrate flexibility, good. Pure form in isolation, good. Application of taekwondo principles not good, distancing and choice of technique not good, therefore close work not good.

I practice one steps often, as a forging tool for application of principle. Treating one step in this way leads to results very different from those in the video.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Not a single person has said anything along those lines

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I put up some material for discussion. If you are going to talk in absolutes, then take it or leave it.

One steps are a limited exercise by their nature. That doesn't mean they are useless, and that's not what I said.

All I said was the example chosen was not a good one to illustrate close work or good one step.

If it's intended to illustrate flexibility, good. Pure form in isolation, good. Application of taekwondo principles not good, distancing and choice of technique not good, therefore close work not good.

I practice one steps often, as a forging tool for application of principle. Treating one step in this way leads to results very different from those in the video.

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See response(s) to Drose427. I appreciated your view, I see it in my dojo. From my perspective, 1-steps are technically limitless.... You don't care for example(s)--OK, the original doubters at my dojo no longer question me.... IMO, 1-steps are NOT an 'isolation" exercise. But yet again, that's often how they are interpreted. There's a historic post that speaks to this issue re the Korean karates such as TKD, that leverage off the Shotokan karate curriculum. Some of the simplifications of the Japanese karates were translated to Korean styles, absent contact with the Okinawan originators of traditional karate.
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Lastly, I AM in concert with your closing sentence, I am NOT with your criticism of the 1-step vid example....
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Thanks for answering....

 

[ShotoNoob]

BY THE WAY:
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There are some very articulate, well written historical articles @ MT re TSD. Perhaps our new martial artist should refer to those in his decision making. Drose 427 is also an authority in TSD. I know I'm going to be looking into them. My original TMA teacher started in TKD, then moved on to Chinese Kempo, which when I returned had been transformed into an Okinawan or Japanese kenop style. So a measure of cross-pollination in my karate style, if you will....

 

[Drose427]

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I put up some material for discussion. If you are going to talk in absolutes, then take it or leave it.


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See response(s) to Drose427. I appreciated your view, I see it in my dojo. From my perspective, 1-steps are technically limitless.... You don't care for example(s)--OK, the original doubters at my dojo no longer question me.... IMO, 1-steps are NOT an 'isolation" exercise. But yet again, that's often how they are interpreted. There's a historic post that speaks to this issue re the Korean karates such as TKD, that leverage off the Shotokan karate curriculum. Some of the simplifications of the Japanese karates were translated to Korean styles, absent contact with the Okinawan originators of traditional karate.
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Lastly, I AM in concert with your closing sentence, I am NOT with your criticism of the 1-step vid example....
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Thanks for answering....

You are the only one dealing with absolutes

 

[Manny]

One steps are tools only, they are not self defense per se, one stapes and three steps are prearranged motions/tecnikes, very basics.

Manny

 

[Mephisto]

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It's important to look at school's on a case by case basis. Here's a clip of TKD self defense, including hands and in-close technique. As opposed to the sporting, kicking only conventions so often seen:

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EDIT: TKD is not for me. It's a personal choice. Take a look @ how the whole curriculum has been structured...others have spoken to this as well. I give these black-belts "A" for form.

If we're talking self defense, this video is exactly why I'd avoid tkd. As has been mentioned blocking punches with feet is a terrible idea. I'm not a fan of steps though. Some FMA schools work their stick and blade counters in a similiar way, I'm not a fan. In most cases you're ready for the attack, you know what's coming, and only one strike is thrown and the attacker freezes. These drills might have some value at a basic level but I think they're a waste of time for an advanced students.

 

[Gnarlie]

If we're talking self defense, this video is exactly why I'd avoid tkd. As has been mentioned blocking punches with feet is a terrible idea. I'm not a fan of steps though. Some FMA schools work their stick and blade counters in a similiar way, I'm not a fan. In most cases you're ready for the attack, you know what's coming, and only one strike is thrown and the attacker freezes. These drills might have some value at a basic level but I think they're a waste of time for an advanced students.

As I said, it's not a good example. It is inaccurate to assume that this is what applied Taekwondo self defence actually looks like, and perhaps unwise to write off the whole art of Taekwondo based on that assumption.

 

[Mephisto]

As I said, it's not a good example. It is inaccurate to assume that this is what applied Taekwondo self defence actually looks like, and perhaps unwise to write off the whole art of Taekwondo based on that assumption.

Believe me, I don't base my thoughts on tkd from this video alone, it just further confirms my bias. I've done plenty of looking into tkd and trained with many tkd practitioners, some of them very good fighters, most of them not. Tkd has potential but the bad schools vastly outnumber the good and if someone who doesn't know anything martial arts is looking for a school statistically they are more likely to find bad tkd than good, so I recommend tkd be avoided in such cases. But if you just want to get active any school may be fine, I'm talking self defense and fighting ability here. "Good and "bad" are relative terms.

 

[ShotoNoob]

If we're talking self defense, this video is exactly why I'd avoid tkd. As has been mentioned blocking punches with feet is a terrible idea. I'm not a fan of steps though. Some FMA schools work their stick and blade counters in a similiar way, I'm not a fan. In most cases you're ready for the attack, you know what's coming, and only one strike is thrown and the attacker freezes. These drills might have some value at a basic level but I think they're a waste of time for an advanced students.

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I think such is problematic too. Maybe why that's why the Okinawan styles of karate (as a general rule) are hand-centered. I know I'm way better with hands than feet. We've got a number of members of our school who excel at feet.

 

[Gnarlie]

Believe me, I don't base my thoughts on tkd from this video alone, it just further confirms my bias. I've done plenty of looking into tkd and trained with many tkd practitioners, some of them very good fighters, most of them not. Tkd has potential but the bad schools vastly outnumber the good and if someone who doesn't know anything martial arts is looking for a school statistically they are more likely to find bad tkd than good, so I recommend tkd be avoided in such cases. But if you just want to get active any school may be fine, I'm talking self defense and fighting ability here. "Good and "bad" are relative terms.

That doesn't reflect my experience at all. Then again, I'm not in the US and I look for clubs with a strong and obvious link to Kukkiwon. But that's not hard to find. I have yet to find a 'bad' TKD school. I'm not sure you can really use the word 'statistically' when generalising based on personal experience.


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[Mephisto]

That doesn't reflect my experience at all. Then again, I'm not in the US and I look for clubs with a strong and obvious link to Kukkiwon. But that's not hard to find. I have yet to find a 'bad' TKD school. I'm not sure you can really use the word 'statistically' when generalising based on personal experience.


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I think I can use the terminology that tkd is statistically bad for self defense and fighting. At least in the United states it's a reality, it may be different in your country but over here it's an accurate statement.

 

[Gnarlie]

So it's not Taekwondo that's bad, but the way it is trained local to you. Taekwondo is what it is, just because it's trained one way local to you doesn't change the truth of what it actually is. It seems that TKD in the US compared to internationally represents a rather different and misleading picture of Taekwondo as a martial art, so generalisations based on local experiences are also likely to be misleading.