Patterns with high kicks that students can't do

[Acronym]

as for joe Rogans side kick, this is clearly Kukkiwon mechanics evident by the exaggerated shoulder turn.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Because I come across this time and time again. We have have people join us from ITF off-shoots and they don't do a damn thing we train. This was driving General Choi mad too, so I am carrying on his legacy here.

You knew Gen. Choi well?

 

[dvcochran]

I just tried it and it worked for me . Try this.
USA – Member Countries – International Taekwon-Do Federation

Still getting 404 URL not found. Apache Server at www.taekwondoitf.org Port 443.
I tried just going to www.taekwondoitf.org and it still did not work. A strange page I have never seen before came up.
I could not capture the image but here is the page text:

Web Server's Default Page
This page is generated by Plesk, the leading hosting automation software. You see this page because there is no Web site at this address.

You can do the following:

• Create domains and set up Web hosting using Plesk.

What is Plesk
Plesk is a hosting control panel with simple and secure web server and website management tools. It was specially designed to help IT specialists manage web, DNS, mail and other services through a comprehensive and user-friendly GUI. Learn more about Plesk.

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[dvcochran]

This is a bizarre thread. A red belt, no offense, arguing with a long time TKD practitioner that trained with General Choi, about what is or isn't ITF curriculum. Only on the internet.

Kind of comedy gold though. I greatly admire Mr. Weiss' patience. Better man than I am.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I trained with black belts in 6 years, and none of the kicks he demonstrated are characteristic ITF kicks in the dojang. My instructor was president of the ITF in Sweden in 87.

The kicks normally covered in the curriculum are: turning and side kick, front kick, crescent kick, reverse turning kick, spinning hook kick, jumping and non jumping back kick, twisting kick, and flying side kick.

Well, either you accept the the General's encyclopedia contains the syllabus for the system or you don't.
If an instructor chooses to not teach things that is their prerogative. Whether you accept it as accurate or not is you prerogative.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Did he want this?

[

Want it for what purpose?

 

[Earl Weiss]

Still getting 404 URL not found. Apache Server at www.taekwondoitf.org Port 443.
I tried just going to www.taekwondoitf.org and it still did not work. A strange page I have never seen before came up.

Sorry, I can't help you. I click on the posts and the links work - anyone else have issues?

 

[Earl Weiss]

I'll answer my own question in the mean time....

General Choi had a relaxation principle. The supposed traditional taekwondo school that I posted is a frenzy of rushes with no attention to posture... They are supposed to be ITF off-shoots yet are completely unrecognizable in spirit. They also focus on tripple spinning aerials, even for beginners. It is a school for acrobatics not TaeKwonDo.

Source: Student that joined us from there who was in for a surprise!

So you are surprised that schools which severed links with the ITF however many years earlier and never did anything to make certain they were performing in accordance with current standards? You should be surprised if they did perform in accordance with current standards.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Sorry, I can't help you. I click on the posts and the links work - anyone else have issues?

I get a warning of an unsecured connection. I suppose it's possible the connection is hijacked in some way.

 

[Acronym]

So you are surprised that schools which severed links with the ITF however many years earlier and never did anything to make certain they were performing in accordance with current standards? You should be surprised if they did perform in accordance with current standards.

I am surprised that they call themselves "traditional" in light of this, yes. Emphasising tripple spinning aerials for beginners is not part and parcel of traditional TaeKwonDo. It's the epitome of modern sport demo TaeKwonDo, which lacks all form of practicality. We had a student from there who couldn't spar to save his life. All he learned up to red belt was various spins and jumps. And of course no contact sparring.

 

[Earl Weiss]

For those following this thread Acronym makes many erroneous conclusions and assumptions yet he is not completely off the mark. Many schools are "ITF Style" but are anywhere along a spectrum with regard to being close to what General Choi wanted to far removed. This has several causes. One is that General Choi recruited Martial Artists to Train, Teach and demo his system. These people had habits that did not change when they adopted the new system and those habits spread through their progeny. Others made conscious changes. For those born into the internet age it's hard to fathom what it must have been like to learn without video examples. I trained for 18 years with some of the highest ranking ITF instructors in the world before I went to my first course with Genera Choi. I didn't expect to learn much. Often he would say something and a voice inside my head would say "That's wrong" because I had been taught differently. I would check what he said against the book and see how I was taught incorrectly and how things changed (Like the old telephone game where person A tells a story to B, and B tells it to C etc. ) as they passed from person to person. I took notes and there were 150 things I needed to fix. After the next course there were only 120. Each successive course there were fewer. So, for those who never had the opportunity to do this it's no surprise how their technique varies. Another example was often related by competitors who said that in the 1980s there were a lot of differences in what people did. By the mid 1990s due to many courses throughout the world the differences were nominal.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Being near O'Hare airport I get visitors who come to train from various parts of the world when they are in Chicago for work, school, vacation etc. I once had a visitor who was ITF style but had various differences which I don't critique or try to change if they just come for a workout. At one point I asked him to watch a pattern performed by regular students After the pattern I then had each student tell him where they learned the pattern. Aside from my students the answers were, Canada, Siberia, Czech Republic, Poland. The visitors comment was "I would have thought they had all learned it from you since the technique was nearly identical - That is the beauty of the system.

 

[andyjeffries]

I trained with black belts in 6 years, and none of the kicks he demonstrated are characteristic ITF kicks in the dojang. My instructor was president of the ITF in Sweden in 87.

I know here in the internet wildlands rank doesn't seem to mean much, but I'm finding it pretty funny that someone who has "trained with black belts in 6 years" is arguing with Grandmaster Earl Weiss on what is and what isn't ITF Taekwon-do.

GM Weiss and I have had many interesting debates and discussions over the years (I don't remember any of them getting really heated but I maybe have a thick skin and a terrible memory), however I'd never presume to tell him what his side of the fence looks like...

 

[andyjeffries]

After the pattern I then had each student tell him where they learned the pattern. Aside from my students the answers were, Canada, Siberia, Czech Republic, Poland. The visitors comment was "I would have thought they had all learned it from you since the technique was nearly identical - That is the beauty of the system.

To be honest, I think this is one area of TKD where ITF wins. The standards known/taught by ITF are much more unified than KKW standards internationally. If you attend KKW courses, all the Koreans do things the same way (99%) including all of the instructors. But internationally it's a whole mess.

There are so many reasons why people don't claim to do KKW standards for Taekwondo:

• We do "traditional" Taekwondo and don't follow Kukkiwon
• This is the way our Kwan does it
• The standards change with every KKW president, so why bother changing
• This is the way my instructor did it, he's a Z Dan so he really knows what's right

It's a bit embarrassing, but then they go to Kukkiwon to do the course, see the unification and how to do it correctly, and most then change/learn. It's just a shame more don't attend the course (although that will change with it now being required to become a Poom/Dan Examiner through KMS).

Anyway, just wanted to share that I thought that's a place where ITF is doing better than KKW.

 

[Earl Weiss]

To be honest, I think this is one area of TKD where ITF wins. The standards known/taught by ITF are much more unified than KKW standards internationally. If you attend KKW courses, all the Koreans do things the same way (99%) including all of the instructors. But internationally it's a whole mess.

.

It was the ITF mandating the instructor course once per Dan Rank (I think for 4th Dan and After) that served to effectuate the change to unified technique. It my have taken 7-8 year or so to see it happen. Perhaps it will be the same for KKW. Lest some think this stifles creativity and innovation, it is only the standard students need to know for the classic exercise. People are still free to modify and innovate for sparring nd special techniques etc.

 

[Acronym]

To be honest, I think this is one area of TKD where ITF wins. The standards known/taught by ITF are much more unified than KKW standards internationally. If you attend KKW courses, all the Koreans do things the same way (99%) including all of the instructors. But internationally it's a whole mess.

.

Do you have any concrete examples?

 

[andyjeffries]

It was the ITF mandating the instructor course once per Dan Rank (I think for 4th Dan and After) that served to effectuate the change to unified technique. It my have taken 7-8 year or so to see it happen. Perhaps it will be the same for KKW. Lest some think this stifles creativity and innovation, it is only the standard students need to know for the classic exercise. People are still free to modify and innovate for sparring nd special techniques etc.

The Kukkiwon instructor course has been going on for maybe 20 years, but it's not mandatory. That's what's holding standardisation back. If we required it to reach master rank (for us, 4th Dan and above) then the KKW world would be much more unified. Thanks for the insight in to what worked for ITF.

 

[andyjeffries]

Do you have any concrete examples?

OMG, too many to list. Some of my "favourite" common mistakes people perform when they don't know what the correct standards are:

1. Performing a bow with their eyes up (too much listening to Bruce Lee, not enough learning about Korean culture)
   
2. Lifting up on the balls of their feet during ready position (joonbi)
3. Jerking in to the final position during a slow motion (for example joonbi, but movements in poomsae too), i.e. a snap at the end - this shouldn't be there
4. Low block starting from the crease of the elbow or a X by the side of the head, rather than the crease of the shoulder
5. Long stance being one shoulder width wide, rather than one fist-width wide
6. Pronouncing it as "Thai-kwondo" instead of "Teh-kwondo".

There are lots of others, but those would be the top 6. There have been so many people I've seen do a pattern on the Kukkiwon master courses they're proud of and you can just think "great, but every movement had a mistake - you need to REALLY listen during the poomsae lessons". There are others who are well standardised of course, but I'd say 75%+ of international candidates aren't.

 

[Earl Weiss]

The Kukkiwon instructor course has been going on for maybe 20 years, but it's not mandatory. That's what's holding standardisation back. If we required it to reach master rank (for us, 4th Dan and above) then the KKW world would be much more unified. Thanks for the insight in to what worked for ITF.

If memory serves the KKW course was held only in Korea for a while. I think I may have heard of a couple of others outside of Korea but not a lot. Have there been many outside Korea? Starting in the 1980's Park Jung Tae and Later General Choi traveled the world teaching the courses which made them more accessible. Sr. GM Sereff also taught a couple one of the very few others authorized to do so. From 1990 to 2002 there were about 100 courses held throughout the world plus various other seminars.

 

[Earl Weiss]

OMG, too many to list. Some of my "favourite" common mistakes people perform when they don't know what the correct standards are:

1. Performing a bow with their eyes up (too much listening to Bruce Lee, not enough learning about Korean culture)
   
2. .

Interesting - The ITF Bow is 15 degrees with the eyes looking ahead.