Passing the Torch

[glad2bhere]

Dear Brian:

You seem to have a real knack for putting a lot of stuff in just a few words. I could probably learn a lot from you there!

I don't think anyone can deny that the Koreans have been at the crossroads between Japanese and Chinese culture for centuries. So I won't ever deny the input from Japan. Where I get concerned is when folks focus on the Japanese influences and won't give Korean and Chinese contributions their due but thats a rant for another string. Suffice to say that if people are looking for a code to pursue along the lines of martial traditions the Koreans have had such a value system for genrations. Nor do we need to construct some system based on a fabriacted heritage. Joo Bang Lees' HwaRangDo is just as chocked full of inaccuracies and inconsistencies as the Kuk Sool peoples' take on things. In a way its a little like Buddhism. In the faith that I practice people are always trying to gussy it up with robes, and mantras, lamas and priests, temples and magic mind powers. Fact is that Buddhism is pretty nuts&bolts. No heaven, no Hell. Do the right thing, the best that you can, for the short period that you are here. Then you die.

Korean martial traditions are just about as stark. The sword is NOT the "soul of the warrior", Korean warriors DON'T have a heritage of patrilinear succession, there AREN'T any fancy titles or positions or uniforms. Problem is that most people seem so taken with the TRAPPINGS of following a Warriors' Path, and "acting" like a warrior, that they never quite get around to BEING a warrior. In this way its a lot like Christianity. Its easy to identify oneself as a Christian, but just try to actually live by those guidelines that have been around for 2000 years! So to respond to your thought I don't know that I would be very invested in trying to follow Lee or Suh in their respective groups. I look at the kinds of people they have associated with them and ask myself if I want to turn out like that. I think not. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[MichiganTKD]

"So to respond to your thought I don't know that I would be very invested in trying to follow Lee or Suh in their respective groups. I look at the kinds of people they have associated with them and ask myself if I want to turn out like that. I think not. FWIW."

Four words:
John Pellegrini's Combat Hapkido

'Nuff said.

 

[Black Belt FC]

International and National associations whose main object is to act as a governing body will have a few individuals of questionable ability and training history. ALL ASSOCIATIONS HAVE THEM, for an example the Kukkikwon for Taekwondo. I’m certified by them and will not drop my membership/certification if I encounter someone with unduly earned rank (and I have)?

Ultimately it’s about where your focus lays, training or policing. As a school owner my objective in getting involve with a association is to have a governing body to certified my students, I will oversee and make sure that they are ready before they earn rank since my reputation is on the line. After a while most association will drop you if you begin to sell or give away rank; for example the Hapkido master who was kicked out from a well-known association.

I have no interest in policing anyone or his or her history it doesn’t make me a better martial artist; besides I prefer not to throw stones.

 

[Kumbajah]

"You seem to have a real knack for putting a lot of stuff in just a few words."

Most describe it as "ten pounds of ***** in a five pound bag" - but thanks

So as far as Hapkido philosophy is concerned you see the basic touch stones as: the five rules, the nine virtues and the 3 principles of Hapkido. Can you guide to where these tenets can be researched? For the most part I have just seen them listed with a brief description of each. Or is that your point - interpret them as we see fit?

Brian

 

[kwanjang]

International and National associations whose main object is to act as a governing body will have a few individuals of questionable ability and training history. ALL ASSOCIATIONS HAVE THEM, for an example the Kukkikwon for Taekwondo. I’m certified by them and will not drop my membership/certification if I encounter someone with unduly earned rank (and I have)?

Ultimately it’s about where your focus lays, training or policing. As a school owner my objective in getting involve with a association is to have a governing body to certified my students, I will oversee and make sure that they are ready before they earn rank since my reputation is on the line. After a while most association will drop you if you begin to sell or give away rank; for example the Hapkido master who was kicked out from a well-known association.

I have no interest in policing anyone or his or her history it doesn’t make me a better martial artist; besides I prefer not to throw stones.

This is exactly the way I look at it. Churches, Governments, or Associations... name any organization where people gather, and you WILL have problems with the conduct of some of their following. It does not mean we condone it, it does not mean that those who belong to any of these groups ALSO do it, and it certainly does not mean they are worthless. Black Belt said he gets value for his efforts and dollars, and that is the bottom line for all of us who do see value in belonging to a certain group.

Even though it is well documented that there are MAJOR problems with the leadership of the association he belongs to, Michigan himself must be getting SOMETHING out of that organization. I would find it ludicrous for folks to allude that he is a fraud who can't be trusted with money, just because he belongs to that organization. Michigan, it is beyond me why you continue to throw stones at everything you do not understand, know the details about, or disagree with, especially because your own organization's closet has enough skeletons in it to keep folks busy for quite some time. We know how you feel about certain organizations, I for one could care less what you think of them, and your comment has nothing to do with the problems of passing the torch we were so nicely discussing. BTW, your anonymous rantings on my website were very amusing

 

[MichiganTKD]

Rudy,
I never said my organization had skeletons in it. We have disagreements with each other over interpretations of technique and maybe what Grandmaster really meant, but what organization doesn't? It is not the same thing as having questionable credentials, or claiming history and instruction you don't have.
If I criticize an organization like Combat Hapkido, believe me I'm not the first or only person to have these opinions. No one said you have to agree with or like my opinions-lots of people do, some don't. And I present it as nothing more than my opinion. Disagree if you like.
I choose not to associate myself with people I feel misrepresent themselves. By associating with them, it makes me look shady as well. It doesn't matter how many magazines they appear in, or who they have their picture taken with.
Anyway, I'm not going to get into another back and forth with you. Too many bad feelings, and I'm really not a negative person. I'm just pretty selective with who I associate with. My Instructor is, and so am I.

 

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

This has been a good thread, here are a few thoughts on the topics.

I, for one, am glad that so many other groups identify themselves as something other that Hapkido. Hapkido is the art of Doju nim Choi, Yong Sul - he really did not seem to care what is was called but settled for Hapkido (just Hapkido, not blah blah Hapkido, just Hapkido) From all that I have researched, he taught an organized and quite standard curriculum - most who trained with him only ever got to his third dan level - Suh, Ji, etc. With this amount of knowledge (and it must have been formidable) lots of other arts were created. All these arts can trace back to Choi. SO, if these organizations do not leave a way to pass the torch, that's really OK, because the root art of Hapkido is still alive and very well.

Maybe Hapkido would seem in better shape if people would quit trying to Korea-fy (?) it so much and accept it for what it is - the teaching of Choi, Yong Sul, who trained in Japan until 1943 in Daito-ryu, came back to Korea and ended up teaching Suh, Bok Sup as a fluke. Remember, Choi was raising pigs when he went to the Suh brewery for grain. Choi never trained in any other martial arts according to him, never went to the mountains or found wandering monks - so he had NO Korean martial tradition (whatever that is) in his background - so studying Japanese warrior ethics in relation to Hapkido seems very consistant. If you want to add Chinese weapons, or religious philisophy, fine, then don't call it Hapkido. From all accounts, Choi taught a brutal, effective fighting art, no one I have spoken to has ever said he taught meditation, chinese weapons, or any religious philosophy.

I am always stunned at the groups that purport to train in Hapkido, but then say that the man that founded the art was a liar - hey, in my opinion, if you don't like the "creation story", find another art, or call your thing something else. Since so many roads lead from Choi, (and start at Choi) he must have been doing something right.

I believe that all the offshoots are awesome for traditional Hapkido. As some of us grow closer to the root and the source of the art, others spiral away. Most of these offshoots initially appear to have vast commercial appeal, but I say just watch - when the "founder" of these groups dies, the whole thing dies with him. I have seen it before, a Hapkido offshoot that was very popular for 20 years, lots of students, lots of instructors, then the founder died, so did the whole organization. This is not to say that ALL offshoot organizations wil go this way, but a top heavy pyramid always collapses in the end. I believe that in this country, many of the organization currently run by ex-pat Koreans will collapse because of this - there has been no effort to really create a power base below the leader, just lots of students, so no leader, no organization.

The other problem in this country seems to be that when a guy gets a black belt in a few styles, he gets a beer or two in him then says "I'm gonna create my own style" - these always die with the founder (sometimes before he is actually dead).

As I see it, at least three men have gotten 9th Dans from Choi, (one a 10th), so while they are still active, try to train with them and absorb what you can about real Hapkido. They all have high ranking students, so I feel safe that the knowledge has been safely passed on. Look in this country for organizations with verifiable claims to a link to Choi - not a day trip to Taegue, but a real link, then Hapkido will be very safe and passed on as it should - intact and real.

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor

 

[MichiganTKD]

Kevin,

I agree with you. Even though I am a Tae Kwon Do practitioner, I agree with keeping an art close to its roots. There is a big difference between having a lineage that can be verifiably traced to the art's Founder, and claiming your own art because you have black belts in one or two styles that may or may not be legit and scrounged up the rest of your knowledge from whatever sources.
If you can say "I can legitimately claim rank from these Instructors going back to Choi, and have the papers and signatures to prove it", that's great. Unfortunately, many who make these claims cannot back them up. And having your picture taken with someone who happens to be in the same room with you and doesn't know you is not the same thing. I'm not referring to you by the way.
Our organization (Chung Do Kwan TKD) can legitimately claim direct lineage to Founder Won Kuk Lee and his teachings. We have photos of our Instructors with his student Woon Kyu Uhm who is current Chung Do Kwan President in Korea. So what style doesn't matter. The principle is the same.

 

[Disco]

Kevin, nice bullseye.

"Choi taught a brutal, effective fighting art, no one I have spoken to has ever said he taught meditation, chinese weapons, or any religious philosophy".

"Maybe Hapkido would seem in better shape if people would quit trying to Korea-fy (?) it so much".

Those two statements kind of says it all......... :supcool:

 

[MichiganTKD]

Which begs the question: Why is there a need for "Combat Hapkido"? Isn't that a redundant term? All I can think of is someone sees dollar signs to be made from unsuspecting students.

 

[Disco]

Why is there a need for "Combat Hapkido"?

Why for the same reason there was a need for the "Pet Rock"..... :uhyeah:

 

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

I kind of felt the same way - saying Combat Hapkido is like saying "blue blue" - and I told Pelligrini as much in 1993. But the problem is not with the offshoots - it is with the practitioners who claim to teach Hapkido and try to give it a Korean spin it doesn't have - in heritage or technique.

I believe that if Doju nim Choi's legacy were truly honored, and all the nonsense stopped, people would look to Hapkido as a more legitimate art and the offshoots would seem less appealing. Hey, with an offshoot, the "founder" is still here to make his claim - many in Hapkido have created such fantastic stories that the reality is so banal as to seem unworthy of practice.

So, I would say to let go of the "up in the mountains" stuff and embrace Choi Yong Sul as one of the greatest martial minds of the last 100 years. Teach what he taught as Hapkido, and let the rest go, or call it something else.

I am always surprised when someone says they are a Hapkido student then has to qualify that with a discussion about "KMA" - my point: Shotokan guys never say they are "JMA" - they are Shotokan guys - we in Hapkido must embrace the same philosophy. Hapkido = Choi; Choi = Daito-ryu and that is OK. Leave the fairy stories about wandering monks and psychic grannies (in 1950's Korea) for kids books - Hapkido was Choi's lifeblood, and it shows in the number of people that learned some and tried to copy, change and improve upon it - yet the copies pale to the original...


Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor

 

[MichiganTKD]

I agree totally.

Even as a Tae Kwon Do practitioner, I try every day to practice the way I was taught. I practice and teach traditional Chung Do Kwan Tae Kwon Do. The forms are different, but the actions and mindset are the same. I firmly believe the farther away you get from the root, the weaker your style. The further you deviate from what the Founder taught, the weaker you will be in terms of technique, basics, form, philosophy etc.
With a tree, the strongest branches are the ones closest to the roots. The farthest branches are the weakest. They may look prettiest (lots of leaves), but they won't hold any weight.

 

[Master Todd Miller]

As I see it, at least three men have gotten 9th Dans from Choi, (one a 10th)

Actually Choi, Yong Sool did not promote any to 10th dan. In traditional Korean MA 9th dan is the highest. There is no such thing as 10th dan! Any that claim a 10th dan did not get it from Doju Nim Choi!

FWIW artyon:

Take care
Todd Miller
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc.
www.millersmudo.com

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Brian:

"......So as far as Hapkido philosophy is concerned you see the basic touch stones as: the five rules, the nine virtues and the 3 principles of Hapkido. Can you guide to where these tenets can be researched? For the most part I have just seen them listed with a brief description of each. Or is that your point - interpret them as we see fit? ...."

There are quite a few sources depending on which end of the pool you want to jump in at.

As far as interpretation I see two mandates. The first mandate is that the interpretation need be consistent with ones' kwan. I specify kwan because an organization tends to be a bit more elastic, while a kwan is bound together in no small part by the view or belief system of the group as it is guided by the teacher. The second mandate is consistency as consistent behavior is the building blocks of sound Integrity. Certainly different individuals and kwans will have different spins on things (the Korean Yon Mu Kwan philosophy seems to be much different than that of GM Myungs' YMK. Go figure.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Kevin:

My only difficulty in invoking Choi Yong Sul and what he taught is that we have no documentation about what it was that he taught. He has been dead a good number of years right now and each and every person that invokes his name says that THEY teach what Choi Yong Sul taught. If thats true shouldn't we have a bunch of illiterate, brusk, asocial folks running around? From all reports Takeda (Chois' teacher?) was even MORE misanthropic. People are NOT teaching what Choi taught, or even the way that he taught and we may thank Gawd for it. Furthermore I think it does Korean martial traditions a disservice to begin the Hapkido arts with Choi as it cuts off a few centuries of tradition and development prior to his time. We probably know more about the traditions prior to Choi through the Korean literature than we actually have documented about what Choi taught. I mean, lets face it. If someone wants to learn DRAJJ what are you going to do. Learn from someone who learned from someone or go straight to one of the many DRAJJ schools and learn the art directly from the source? I study Korean arts some of which has been influenced by Japanese tradition. There is, however, another whole half of the Korean traditions which seem to be neglected. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

Dear Bruce & Kevin,

I agree with what Bruce just wrote.

Kevin, we don’t know what Choi actually learned. Basically we practice the Ji Han Jae tradition of Hapkido! I'm speaking of any one of the following lines, KHF, KHA WHA, WHF, IHF, JR West, etc.

The others like Jung Ki HKD or Master Allen's group in Florida is a different tradition not incorporating any teachings of Ji Han Jae.

But HKD is now a Korean Art especially from Ji he incorporated many Korean MA traditions both spritual and physical.

DRAJJ is strictly a Japanese tradition.

I saw a DRAJJ book by Shiro Omiya and some othe tapes etc. DRAJJ looked more Aikido like to me. What I learned looks more like the Hapkido from Myungs books, He Young Kim or Mark Tadechi not DRAJJ.

Personally I not sure if Choi learned DRAJJ at all most likey some style of JJ.

Ji Han Jae said to me directly that Choi only called what he taught Yawara and that is a generic term of Yu Sool or soft techniques. Choi never said to anyone he learned DRAJJ, Also direct link to DRAJJ was never able to be established by anyone!

So IMO the DRAJJ link is very weak at best.

 

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

OK, I don't want to open a huge can of beans here, but some need to do more research.

First, Choi told several people that Takeda was his "father" and showed people a picture of Takeda when asked what he had learned. Most notably, this dicsussion was conducted with GM Mike Wollmershauser. In addition, Jang Im Mok, a student of Takeda, from Korea, verified that Choi was considered a "great" Daito-ryu instructor. So again, if you study Hapkido, you study the root of Choi, and what he brought back from Japan, Daito-ryu. In addition, the number of traditional techniques that are taught in Daito-ryu are the same as taught in Choi's Hapkido. In addition, any book where Daito-ryu looks like aikido, I would look for another book, they are really quite different.

Next, sorry, but exactly what Choi taught is well documented. Several original students of Choi found that the information that was transferred to them between beginner and third dan was identical. I have no doubt that since that was the section that Ji studied that he also learned the same material. Even in Illinois, a documented early Choi student has told me that the training was quite structured for all students. In any case, why is it relevant how it was taught? The fact is that the same material can be taught any way one chooses - so to say we would all act one way because that is how it was taught is nonsense.

You may follow the tradition of Ji, I do not. None of the instructors I have had ever had any Ji lineage. But, if it works for you then fine. As for traditions from books...well whatever, they are not Hapkido. Hapkido did not exist in Korea prior to the arrival of Choi, and no book from 1525 is going to change that. That's like saying that the heritage of Shotokan is not with Funikoshi because it is well documented that the cavemen of the region used to kill animals with rocks.

Sorry if the stories that you have been told don't jive with reality, but the history of Hapkido starts in 1948 at the Suh brewery. If you want Korean martial tradition prior to that, it is not Hapkido, period.

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Kevin:

What you are saying is very true and you are certainly welcome to accept the oral traditions that have been passed to us from the previous generation. Unfortunately this was not what I was asking about. There have been a number of oral traditions that have been demonstrated to be blatant fabrications. The one about Choi acting as a second to Takedas' seppuku comes readily to mind. As I say, however, there are people who are going to hold on to these oral traditions because it pleases them to do so. Thats fine. Where the difference comes in is that if one is going to speak of facts then the facts need to have provenance and unfortunately the current family of oral traditions don't have that. Perhaps an example is in order.

It is established through documentation that Takeda was profficent in sword work. SOME of Chois' students present sword work and some don't. GM Lim teaches his take on Eishin-Ryu as combined with Korean traditions. Now what do we make of this.

a.) Well we can say that either from the Japanese side of influences or from the Korean side of influences swordwork is part of Hapkido.

b.) You don't HAVE to go to Japan for swordwork since the Koreans already have their own traditions.

c.) Its seems a bit disingenuous to teach Hapkido as a Korean art, but integrate a great deal of DRAJJ and Japanese sword into Hapkido after the fact and then state that one is teaching what Choi taught. I don't think that CHoi ever knew Eishin-ryu, and probably didn't know Korean sword either. He may have learned some Itto-ryu from Takedas students if he knew any at all.

As far as whether of not Hapkido existed before Choi I think that has already been settled. Choi never called his art "Hapkido" or hapki-yu-sool, or hapki-yu-kwon-sul. He didn't call it su-bahk either. And without a documented curriculum organized by Choi and published by Choi unfortunately we have only the word of students following his death to retrofit material, or gradft on associated material and say they learned it from Choi. Down through the generation the names for Korean Mu-Do have changed regularly and repeatedly. NOW we are calling it Hapkido, and there are already people starting to invent even NEWER names. The theme that I keep coming back to is that there is a single line that to my mind does not make rational sense.

1.) If Choi learned a Japanese art then all practitioners following Choi are beholding to the Japanese roots. Thats simple Neo-Confucianism, plain and simple.

2.) If people want to practice a Japanese art, then I heartily encourage them to do so.

3.) I train in a Korean MA and when I need questions answered I don't go on a fieldtrip to Japan. I am grateful for having the Choi-Ji-Myung traditions of the Yon Mu Kwan to give me a jumping-off point, but when I jump it is deeper into the Korean traditions and Korean past NOT into increasing amounts of Japanese influence. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

Dear Kevin,

This a just a discussion not reason to get upset over etc.

Ji Han Jae is a good source and can't confrim the DRAJJ connection only Yawara?

Can your provide hard facts ( certs or names from the DRAJJ archieves etc. ) or just hear say? I too read the Wollmershauser interveiw but its story that could be 100% true or fabricated or a little of both.

Stories that can be backed up with facts go alot farther then one or the other alone.