Passing the Torch

[American HKD]

Mike

Thanks your right I missed it.

 

[American HKD]

Bruce,

You wrote

..........Having said all that, just how do you folks propose to pass our arts on to the next generation without them cutting corners? Isn't this really the sum total of the issue? The last generation busted their humps to pass things to us. We bust our butts to do the best we can with what we have been given. How do we increase the probability that the next generation will be as passionate about maintaining our arts as are we? Thoughts?

Very Seriousy.

I think based on my expirence in my school, teaching for many years for my Instructor seeing what's really popular in MA today.

1. HKD needs to be organizied so it's suited for more people.
2. It's not good for young kids.
3. It has a very narrow window of appeal for adults.
4. HKD is not well known.
5. HKD is most suited for guys/gals who dont mind pain taking lots of falls and getting there arms twisted over & over like you, me, Mike & Rudy.

My friends TSD schools has 4 locations aprox. 500-600 students, only 15 to 20 take the SM HKD classes he offers. I talked to many of them and they think TSD is better and doesn't hurt!

It need more of the following.

1. Add more fun elements people like sport sparring.
2. Teach weapons sooner.
3. Some cross training.
4. Fun drills

Then maybe some serious students will emerge who will study the complete Art.

Thought and were also off topic.

 

[Disco]

We bust our butts to do the best we can with what we have been given. How do we increase the probability that the next generation will be as passionate about maintaining our arts as are we?

I personally feel we (generalization) are in a bad downward trend. I don't see the people taking to the arts anymore. Society has become to technically orientated. Even back in Korea, so I have been informed, the arts are for children. The percentage of adults who take up or continue in the arts is almost nil. If the birthplace of our art is suffering, where does that leave us? With our economy not in the best of shape, people don't have the extra funds for non-necessities. Even the people who's jobs depend on self protection, i.e. Police and Corrections, are not willing or feel there's no need to take on the extra training. In the past year alone, I have seen a lot of schools close. Even a couple of the bigger TKD dojangs just couldn't handle the overhead. Sad, but I think were coming to the end of the rainbow so to speak.

 

[Disco]

Stuart, just saw your post and you bring up some very serious and important items. Your correct in all your comments regarding HKD. Your TSD friend's schools has 500 to 600 students? That's fantastic, love to know how he's doing it. I was under the assumption that TSD also uses joint locks and some throws. Perhaps his style does not, ergo the number of students. Perhaps it's something the HKD community could / should review.

 

[Kumbajah]

"My friends TSD schools has 4 locations aprox. 500-600 students, only 15 to 20 take the SM HKD classes he offers. I talked to many of them and they think TSD is better and doesn't hurt!

It need more of the following.

1. Add more fun elements people like sport sparring.
2. Teach weapons sooner.
3. Some cross training.
4. Fun drills

Then maybe some serious students will emerge who will study the complete Art."



I can't believe that you are actually calling for this. If I wanted to take Combat Hapkido, I would have. I don't want to see Hapkido go the way of TKD, with a McDojang on every corner. If you don't want to fall down and get your arm twisted don't take Hapkido. Judo,karate, and Kung Fu's popularity has ebbed and waned and they are still around. Jujitsu has had a resurgence thanks to the Gracies and they haven't had to homogenize their art for mass consumption. Your argument as it presented - "the more students I have the better the art." Hogwash - all it does is line pockets. Its a great art. Leave the tiny tigers and executive programs to the McDojangs. The weeding out process is what makes the art strong. Those that have the patience and fortitude for the long haul will be good and pass it along.

Brian Beach

 

[kwanjang]

Your argument as it presented - "the more students I have the better the art." Hogwash - all it does is line pockets. Its a great art. Leave the tiny tigers and executive programs to the McDojangs. The weeding out process is what makes the art strong. Those that have the patience and fortitude for the long haul will be good and pass it along.

Brian Beach

To be very honest, in a small city like mine there are not enough interested people for me to keep my doors open if I taught MY way. So, to keep the doors open (and still introduce people to the art I love) I take on the kids and the wooses who don't want to "feel" what a technique is all about. By doing so, I give those who want to experience the real McCoy a home, I introduce the art I love to more people than I ever could if the school was closed because it could not meet the overhead, and I get to train myself.

In my school today, I have just a mere dozen or so people who want to hit the mat. All others like to "think" they take martial arts, but they don't want to feel the pain that goes with the learning: however, they DO make it possible for me to have my "dirty dozen" How do others deal with this?

 

[American HKD]

Dear Brian,

Rudy understands my point exactly I'm glad I'm not alone on this.

I live and train in a fairly large suburb 10-15 minutes from Philadelphia. Believe me its hard to get people who really want to train in HKD.

My teachers school as been in Philly since 1978 and he is a world class master and technician. However his school only produced 20 some BB, a few 2nd dans and myself. Not that good for a big city, high level master with a long time school?

In order to teach "True HKD" you have to keep the doors of the school open whether you do it for a side income or to make your full living.

I've been in this Art for over 20 years, If you dont have a school and are not a Master or life long HKD student as myself or Rudy I don't expect you to be able to honestly assess this serious situation and I know you mean well.

For the record HKD will die out completly or evolve into something else "Combat HKD" in a short period of time when there are'nt enough well trainned Masters to take over the next generation and run successful money making schools.

A few die hards like yourself and me for that matter are not enough to save HKD future. Sorry!

Hapki,

Stuart Rosenberg

 

[Master Todd Miller]

I have a small dojang here in NH and we have about 10 people who want the real thing. My teacher in Korea GM Lim, Hyun Soo 9th dan has about 15 - 20 Masters that keep on training. Jungki Hapkido tends to weed out those not willing to experience good hard training! This has always been the way of things and I am guessing it will continue as long as people are human.

Take care
Todd Miller
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc.
www.millersmudo.com

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Brian, Stuart et al:

You fellas are hitting on exactly the reason I started this string in the first place. I am not all that worried about the "ICHF-s" among us. They will always be around-- coming and going. What I am concerned with are the messages, philosophies, techniques and institutions that the more conservative practitioners are following. Over the years I have been roasted and toasted for speaking up in the most unlikely places. Recently when there was so much turmoil in the KHF people were asking me why I, a WHF member, would even care what the KHF was doing? The same goes for the upcoming international event in Canada in 2005, the bi-annual International in Jackson and Rudys' annual seminar schedule across North America. IMVVHO without defining ways in which institutions here in No America will be passed to the next generation, the Hapkido Arts are made vulnerable to folks comng in from outside the country and imposing their management on the arts here. My apologies to folks here that may be associated with GM Lim (Malaysia) but I see his efforts along this line. In like manner I see the efforts of the "new" KHF Korean leadership as doing the same. There is a reason that when I am asked to come to a place and give a seminar on KMA I often travel at my own expense and teach for free. My art means that much to me. There is a reason I want to learn about the other organizations and what they are doing and promote the ones that are working to offer quality experiences. It means that much to me. There is a reason that I speak out where I think I see need for improvement. It means that much to me. The only place I don't see folks working to better things is in the area of succession. Here I still see a real "achilles heel". Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[kwanjang]

I have a small dojang here in NH and we have about 10 people who want the real thing. My teacher in Korea GM Lim, Hyun Soo 9th dan has about 15 - 20 Masters that keep on training. Jungki Hapkido tends to weed out those not willing to experience good hard training! This has always been the way of things and I am guessing it will continue as long as people are human.

Take care
Todd Miller
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc.
www.millersmudo.com

Hello Todd:
In the old days around the mid sixties to early seventies I had a job and taught every evening at my storefront school. My students and myself (no kids) were about as hard nosed as you can get, and life was wonderful even though I had to make up the rent shortcomings every month.

After I injured my back, I received a bit of money from back Workers Comp, and I bought an old building which the students and I transformed into the Dojang I now have. Having been self employed for ages now, there never seemed to be enough money to put aside for a pension plan of any kind. Just not enough money in martial arts in my area, and I always had the stupid idea that a true Master did not charge.

End of story is I am in my sixties now, and I can't afford to throw out diligent students who want something different than I want for myself... like martial art lessons that allows them to get to their job instead of calling in injured one more time. I understand their motives now I'm a little older, and I agree with them because jobs are hard to come by. Calling in sick because of hobby injuries will get you tossed out faster than you can imagine, and training the old way is just not worth that risk to them.

Not crying the blues here (maybe a bit of wishful thinking), but just interested in how you manage to keep YOUR doors open with just twenty or so students? Do you have a store front? Are you paying rent? Just curious, because I'm never too old to learn and I'd sure like to go back to the old ways if I could manage that. I hope you are willing to share with us how you manage it.

 

[Kumbajah]

Stuart et al,

I think there is a misunderstanding somewhere. My view is this: yes, you need to have an influx of students. People come in try a class they either like it or not. If they like it they sign up. They proceed with the curriculum. It gets harder - they either rise to to it and proceed or they fade away. The people who stay have gone through the works and are good practitioners and vale what their hard work has gotten them. If you dumb down the curriculum to keep everyone there where's the value in it. Most don't value what has come easily to them. You are just creating a karrotie social club were everyone can feel good about themselves. You are turning the art into a commodity, so everyone has the right as a consumer to go as far as they are willing to pay. It doesn't seem to me a way to keep the art healthy and vital. So it sounds like you think Hapkido or your studio has a marketing problem. (i.e attracting the "short timers " ) There is no need to change the art. It is the true art that attracts the short timers to begin with. "I want to be just like Sabunim Stewart or Kwanjangnim Rudy" - "Teach me to throw a guy around like that".

To draw an example not everyone who takes piano lessons is going to be a concert pianist. Just because you have a room full of people that can play chopsticks doesn't mean you are a great teacher or piano is going to be the most popular/vital/enduring instrument. You don't take a way some of the keys so everyone can play. That is the beauty of art - you may never get there, it is the process, the stretching of your boundaries. Those who achieve mastery are a sight or sound to behold. There will be some that want to emulate that. You can't make people love something by giving it a false face, it the facade that they love not the art. How does that serve the art?

Brian

 

[Martial Tucker]

Stuart et al,

I think there is a misunderstanding somewhere. My view is this: yes, you need to have an influx of students. People come in try a class they either like it or not. If they like it they sign up. They proceed with the curriculum. It gets harder - they either rise to to it and proceed or they fade away. The people who stay have gone through the works and are good practitioners and vale what their hard work has gotten them. If you dumb down the curriculum to keep everyone there where's the value in it. Most don't value what has come easily to them. You are just creating a karrotie social club were everyone can feel good about themselves. You are turning the art into a commodity, so everyone has the right as a consumer to go as far as they are willing to pay. It doesn't seem to me a way to keep the art healthy and vital. So it sounds like you think Hapkido or your studio has a marketing problem. (i.e attracting the "short timers " ) There is no need to change the art. It is the true art that attracts the short timers to begin with. "I want to be just like Sabunim Stewart or Kwanjangnim Rudy" - "Teach me to throw a guy around like that".

To draw an example not everyone who takes piano lessons is going to be a concert pianist. Just because you have a room full of people that can play chopsticks doesn't mean you are a great teacher or piano is going to be the most popular/vital/enduring instrument. You don't take a way some of the keys so everyone can play. That is the beauty of art - you may never get there, it is the process, the stretching of your boundaries. Those who achieve mastery are a sight or sound to behold. There will be some that want to emulate that. You can't make people love something by giving it a false face, it the facade that they love not the art. How does that serve the art?

Brian

Brian,

I am a student, not a teacher or school owner. I agree with your sentiment completely. I belong to a terrific school. Thank God my teacher has a good day job. I would be shocked if his school is even breaking even, but he is OK with that as he loves the art enough to teach "non-profit". We have a very good, traditional curriculum, where our teacher demands respect and treats us with the same respect. We get a good workout, learn a lot, and have many laughs in each class. In my 8 years as a student, I have seen just about every type of person come in and try a free month. It doesnt take long to know who will be hanging around and who won't, and it has nothing to do with athletic ability or conditioning. The problem is, in our "instant gratification/make EVERYONE feel good about themself" society, VERY few people are willing to push themselves at all to find out what they are truly capable of accomplishing. I am at the tail end of the "baby boomer" generation, and I feel my generation is incredibly spoiled and unappreciative of the blessings they have been given, and most feel as though they are entitled to the successes and good things that life has to offer, but our parents had to work their butts off for. And we're raising our kids to be worse than we are.
Anyway, coming down off my soapbox, I will agree with your comment that watering down a curriculum does not serve the art. Unfortunately, in this day and age, I can also see that a "straight" curriculum rarely pays the rent.

 

[American HKD]

Greeting,

After hearing from all of you I think we all have pros and cons to our veiws and I respect all of your veiws.

I expressed my opinions based on my 20 plus years in HKD and how things work around here.

I'm not in favor of disgarding traditional ways only making a modified curriculum for those who want more kids & family type training or those who are older and can't do things the hard core types want.

A good balance of the two will go farther and be better for HKD's future IMHO.

As for money I'm comfortably self employed and can pay my bills but usually loose a few $$ monthly in regards to HKD. My students are generally adult professionals, we train hard but careful not to over due things that can cause injury etc., my people must go to work the next day.

 

[whalen]

A few die hards like yourself and me for that matter are not enough to save HKD future. Sorry!

Stu, hit the nail right on the head unfortunately a lot people Talk the Talk. When it comes time to walk the walk they let their fingers do the walking Kind of like a keyboard warrior.

Does Hapkido want to be saved ? Or has it become a supplement To keep Dojangs afloat while they push Taekwondo

There are a few out there that have always taught Hapkido even when it was not as popular as it is now. These are the Dojangs the are struggling because they hold the Hapkido they learned sacred. And try not to water it down or delute what they have learned.

My Friend Rudy mentioned about how it used to be he was correct. When i first taught Hapkido in 1979 I introduced my assistant instructor to the class it was the "Jok-Do" Today you would end up in a law-suite.

Hal

 

[Kumbajah]

After the success of the KHF friendship seminar, Master West's events, the Hapkido Games in Europe are you truly this pessimistic about the future of Hapkido? Our Federation has an event planned for 2005 in Vancouver. In conjuction with GM Bong Soo Han and GM Kim Duk In. I'm also seeing more articles about Hapkido in MA magazines.

I see the spark that gets in the eye of GM Jin Pal Kim when he comes to throw us around. He loves it and is passing the love along. I won't be the one carrying the torch but I'll damn sure have a match.

Brian

"follow your bliss" - josph campbell

 

[Master Todd Miller]

End of story is I am in my sixties now, and I can't afford to throw out diligent students who want something different than I want for myself... like martial art lessons that allows them to get to their job instead of calling in injured one more time. I understand their motives now I'm a little older, and I agree with them because jobs are hard to come by. Calling in sick because of hobby injuries will get you tossed out faster than you can imagine, and training the old way is just not worth that risk to them.


I agree, People have to work and cannot afford to have serious injury but they do happen! I have more than 10 students training at my dojang. I am talking about the 10 that will hold to the teaching My GM and I have been trying to impart. That # hopfully will get larger as time goes on but the fact is that there will always be those that like the hard training of Hapkido and those that do not! I personally feel if I have produced 1 student who will be inspired by Hapkido that I have been successful. :asian:

Just a few of my thoughts!

Take care
Todd Miller
Korea jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc.
www.millersmudo.com

 

[Black Belt FC]

The success of Hapkido or any another martial arts depends on one key factor: it must have a user friendly and well structure curriculum. My school’s Hapkido class has been very successful largely to a clear and well-planned class. A regular class in my school has been growing rapidly due largely to the following:



Falls-At my school I teach 12 different types of falls that we review every single session. Student has less change of getting hurt if they learn falls by repeating them every week.



Foot Work- I teach several patterns of footwork that students learn and will apply with wrist, kicking, punching and weapon techniques that will be use as they graduate throw the ranks.



Buildup: Students are given a basic foundation that the other more advance techniques will build on. The basic, intermediate and advance techniques must intertwine with each order in that order that students can make a connection with them; thus learning and comfort level is at peak.



KISS system (Keep It Simple Sam)- Instruction must be kept simple and direct and adjusted when students are undergoing difficult time learning. Five well-learned techniques are better than 20 poorly learn applications, don’t overload the students that will only frustrate them.



Communication: Teach Hapkido techniques in English, students didn’t sign-up to learn a second language. Its hard enough that they feel awkward about learning Hapkido, they don’t need to feel obtuse about knowing what a Korean word means.





Just my three cents take it for what it worth, it’s working well for me.


Lugo

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Brian:

".....After the success of the KHF friendship seminar, Master West's events, the Hapkido Games in Europe are you truly this pessimistic about the future of Hapkido? ....."

I have not gotten to the pessimism stage just yet, but I do have a lot of anxiety for the future of the Hapkido arts. Its not just care one must take with teaching and learning. To me thats just common sense. What I get concerned with is the natural tendency of folks to cut corners and modify material. I get tired of folks introducing weaponry and techniques from other arts without first mastering the material of Hapkido first. Scott Shaw has published more than a little material on "Hapkido" routinely making reference to Japanese Budo. Phillippino stick-fighting and Indonesian knife-fighting are likewise making in-roads. Ask about Korean sword and people are doing Kendo. Ask about staff work and people are doing Japanese or Okinawan staff. Hell, there are at least 8 major Hapkido organizations regularly referred to in the media. How many of these utilize a commonly recognized curriculum (other than their own).

And what about the value systems? Ask about the martial values of KMA and people are reading books like the HAGAKURE on JAPANESE martial values! MA teachers don't seem to want to press the O-Gae as a true value system for personal conduct for fear of alienating their students. People invoke the Confucian and Neo-Confucian philosophy, but how many have actually read-up on these values and their history?

But the true concern for me lies in the apathy. "I don't have time for that" and "who cares" are among the usual responses to advocating for these traditions and their promotion. And there are a lot more people with that kind of thinking. I am absolutely amazed at the numbers of practitioners I have run into who still think that testosterone, physicality and stoicism are the primary criteria following a Warriors Path. Pick below the surface and what you get are gossip, mean-spiritedness and commerce. So what gets passed to the next generation? Seems like its the trappings of following a Martial path without actually having to live it. This is what I worry will not be passed along to the next generation. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Kumbajah]

Couple of questions for clarity - The philosophy side - martial arts without philosophy is just fighting. If the Hwarang code of ethics is the where you'd like to hang your hat - what ever their origins maybe should the Hapkido community be taking a cue from Hwrang-do? They might not be the shining example of the code but as least they are proponents of it.

On the influence side - I won't get into Scott Shaw thats a completely different discussion. I think that we ( at least the ones that follow the BBS) know your stance on hapkido influences (korean native with chinese influences) but it is hard to deny the influence of Diato Ryu Aikijujitsu wouldn't some of the weapons be influenced by that culture? If you wanted to take the "pure" Korean view should Hapkido be taking a look how Kuk Sul Won organizes material?

Both arts are Hapkido influenced - so would a fair view of your ideal Hapkido curriculum be some sort of conglomeration of the three to keep a pure korean approach?

The two leaders of these arts have tried to distance themselves from Hapkido. So do we need to wait for their passing to have a true synergy between the Hapki arts? So perhaps the "Golden age" is not yet upon us. - just a thought

Brian

 

[kwanjang]

I agree, People have to work and cannot afford to have serious injury but they do happen! I have more than 10 students training at my dojang. I am talking about the 10 that will hold to the teaching My GM and I have been trying to impart. That # hopfully will get larger as time goes on but the fact is that there will always be those that like the hard training of Hapkido and those that do not! I personally feel if I have produced 1 student who will be inspired by Hapkido that I have been successful. :asian:

Ah. I see that we are actually not that far apart in our take on things. While I do have a much larger contingent of folks who cannot or don't want to train as hard as I would like to see it, I DO have a fair number of folks whom I can push. Heck they even let me play with my Jook Do without suing me

Hal my friend, Canada is not as bad for law suits, you'll have to come over someday and do some work with my boys. It will be great for them to see that I am not the only one around who does this After the back problem, I am not fit enough to really take the lead with the younger lads these days, and they could use a good tune up by a Master

Talking about the great time we have at the West seminar, my own seminars, and some of the other seminars around, I don't think they are in the same realm of hard training we are talking about. Sure, we have a great time, but I see a lot of folks who would not fit into my group of hard core students even though they do work hard.

IMHO, what makes these events great is the interaction between the various Masters. While we all teach Hap Ki Do, there are enough differences to show there is quite a depth to HKD, and we are willing to accept them without becoming anal about these differences.

As long as we keep up the hard work, I think we will survive. In the meantime, we need to take advantage of the students who help us keep the doors open. It's been a great discussion. Thanks for sharing your experiences Todd. I also enjoyed "meeting" Stuart and hearing from all my old friends. Coming North anytime soon Hal. You know all of you folks have a second home here eh