Passing the Torch

[glad2bhere]

Since there was a string on who people thought the most outstanding Hapkido person might be I thought I would throw this out FWIW.

The Koreans have never been very good at succession where the KMA are concerned. In fact succession is one of the main issues in American business interests. The question comes up more often than people might care to acknowledge.

"Who is going to take over when the Old Man is gone?"

Hardly a month goes by when we DON'T hear that one more well-known personage has gone on to join his forebearers on that great Celestial Mat with the Supreme Kwan Jang. In like fashion there are often reports that a school has closed and the teacher moved on to other places. So heres' my question.

If you woke up to find that you no longer had the leadership (IE. teacher, instructor, organization, school) that you had come to be comfortable with what would be your next course of action.

If that question is a little too morbid how about---

"What plans have you made for your martial training for 5 years down the road?"

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Master Todd Miller]

What plans have you made for your martial training for 5 years down the road?"


I think that is a very important question to ask! For me I will continue to follow the Jungki Kwans next headmaster. There are several Masters to choose from all of wich are very capable of carying on the torch of Jungki Martial Arts. :asian:

Take care
Todd Miller
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc.
www.millersmudo.com

 

[Disco]

"What plans have you made for your martial training for 5 years down the road?"

A lot of options have to do with what rank you have attained. I know there are a lot of people who offer that rank shouldn't be a factor, but in reality it is. There are very few schools or individuals that would be willing to allow a higher ranking person, than the main instructor, to join and train with them. You in fact become a threat. Not physically, but monatarily. If you are still in the kyu/guep ranks, then there is little problem. Even at 1st or 2nd Dan, perhaps even 3rd, although 3rd is pushing it, one still may be able to be invited to join. If you have reached 4th or higher, unless you can find someone of higher rank and that still does not eliminate the prospect of being a threat, you are forced to become a lone wolf. So your options are either find a few non affiliated practicioners and/or start your own school. Starting your own school is not always an option for some. The costs in many places are too prohibitive. The only other option I can think of would be to start into a totally different discipline than the one your currently trained in.

P.S. Bruce, glad you had a good time at rudy's........

 

[glad2bhere]

Thanks, it was really a nice experience. In fact, we touched on so many themes that any ONE of those could have been used as the focus for the days' training. To use a metaphor, the food that was served up may have been the same but the way it was prepared was very different.

I understand that Kat Kelly may not be hosting Rudy after all so I am thinking of making a trip out to Washington DC. where the Jin Pal folks are having BB testing. Brian has been very cordial about extending an invitation and I understand that we may share some of the same traditions as both his headmaster and mine apparently trained under Ji Han jae. Only fly in the ointment is that both the test and my nieces' wedding are in August. May take some finagling. FWIW.

BTW: Mike Tomlinson never returned my e-mail so it may just be you and I, even if just to hit the local STARBUCKS. No way am I going to hang around Disney World all day Saturday!! artyon:

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Todd:

I get asked about GM Myung quite a bit, probably because of his health problems. In his case no one has been identified as a successor that I know of. For myself, I probably place a whole lot more emphasis on the Yon Mu Kwan than I do on the WHF organization though historically the latter proceeded from the former. Problem is that not many of the WHF people still subscribe to the kwan model having long since given over to the more modern "federation" or "association" approach. Seeking someone who still upholds the older mindset, I sometimes find folks who still mention GM Myung on their website or in their literature but most of the time it is because they have joined the organization. Westerners like the ability to float from organization to organization as the parameters are quite a bit more relaxed. Joining a kwan means things are done from a particular point of view--- which, after all, IS what a "kwan" is----- and that often means having to do something someone has become settled with in a different fashion. Smells too much like starting over from Square One for most people. For myself, then, five years from now will hopefully see me with a few more books out, but probably about as far as I will be able to go with the Yon Mu Kwan unless some obscure Yon Mu Kwan teacher or mentor surfaces. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Master Todd Miller]

You made a very good point Bruce! It is important to be learning at all levels of training. GM Lim has told me many times "Every day practice, every day improve" Learning has many differant levels so a 4th geup is not going to be learning the same as a 5th dan. It is important for the 5th dan to keep studying looking for more understanding at even the basic level of training.

Take care
Todd Miller
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc.
www.millersmudo .com

 

[kwanjang]

Bruce writes:
"Who is going to take over when the Old Man is gone?"

Hello Bruce: Your question is on that every serious practitioner should ask him or herself. If we think on the timeline where most arts we know today were founded, add to that a reasonable age of the founders, and we find that they just HAVE to be getting on in age.

I myself found out the hard way when GM Pak suddenly died of a heart attack a few years back, and it was no fun. In my case, he had already passed his art on to me (1984), because he went on to promote another art he founded. Even with all of the documents legally in place, I still face skeptics on a daily basis, and that will never change.

Not only do folks have to think about who they will train with, they will also need to see who they can follow with an honest heart. Looking at what recently happened with ITF (and earlier on with Ed Parker, just to name a few of many), there is almost sure to be a battle for position.

Since Maslows "theory of needs" hit me a few years back, I have been working hard on preparing NKMAA as well as Kong Shin Bup for this. Not much fun, but it needs to be done. For the life of me, I can't figure out why so many young people WANT to be a GM. To me that title just means one thing: "my Grand Master is dead (and more training is hard to come by), I'm getting old, and I have to deal with all of the problems other folks seem to be able to dream up at will. Not much to brag about IMHO.

BTW:
The NKMAA seminar scheduled for Houston in October is still on; however, KSN Kat Kely does need to make sure she gets enough people to cover her expenses. My August seminar in Portland, OR and September seminar in Brainerd, MN are on track with pre-registrations coming in now.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Rudy:

".....The NKMAA seminar scheduled for Houston in October is still on; however, KSN Kat Kely does need to make sure she gets enough people to cover her expenses. My August seminar in Portland, OR and September seminar in Brainerd, MN are on track with pre-registrations coming in now....."

My most sincere apologies. I misunderstood completely. Glad to hear that Kat will still be having her event in October in Houston. I would definitely like to make the Portland event, if only to see Kevin again and have him bang me around on the mat. August seems to be getting pretty busy for me but your seminars always seem to draw a great bunch of folks. Can't ask more than that!!

Getting back to the idea of succession, sometimes I see such questions as the flip-side of being a GM. By this I mean that here in the States people seem to make quite a bit of titles such as "sabunim", grandmaster and so forth. Its a recognition thing, I think. Then, when its time to do the actual "grunt work" associated with the title (IE. paperwork, teaching, management) things begin to breakdown. I remember that the "Five Good Emperors" of Roman history were able to provide sound succession of good leaders by making sure that their successors were groomed and oriented to take ones' place should the previous emperoro pass on. I think the leadership in the Hapkido arts need to think the same way. By having a generally identified and accepted individual as the person to take the reins should something happen to the previous leader one makes sure that there will be a smooth transfer of authority. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[MichiganTKD]

Korean arts tend to be decentralized more than Japanese or Chinese arts. In other words, rather than saying "this person founded this art and this person controls it" it becomes more "this art developed in this way through the years" whether Tae Kwon Do, Hapkido etc. That is one of the problems with "passing the torch". Who passes the torch to whom? My organization is no different. When our GM passes, as we all will, it will most likely turn into a situation of each Instructor taking what they have learned and running with it.
For example, if my Instructor dies and I am 5th Dan at the time, I probably will never make 6th Dan, because he is the only person who can promote me. Don't talk to me about going to some Grandmasters Organization for promotion. My Instructor is the only person who can recommend me. Now, it doesn't mean I can't add to my skills and knowledge and become the world's best 5th Dan, but I will still be a 5th Dan (or whatever Dan). Won Kuk Lee only made 3rd-4th Dan in Taekyon/Karate before starting Chung Do Kwan. He had no choice, and never claimed rank he didn't have.
Point is, if my Instructor passes, I can still continue with my life, training, and teaching, even if it is on my own. That is why they call Tae Kwon Do the Tiger Martial Art. Like tigers, Tae Kwon Do people tend to be solitary-practicing and training on their own.

 

[glad2bhere]

"....For example, if my Instructor dies and I am 5th Dan at the time, I probably will never make 6th Dan, because he is the only person who can promote me. Don't talk to me about going to some Grandmasters Organization for promotion. My Instructor is the only person who can recommend me. Now, it doesn't mean I can't add to my skills and knowledge and become the world's best 5th Dan, but I will still be a 5th Dan (or whatever Dan). Won Kuk Lee only made 3rd-4th Dan in Taekyon/Karate before starting Chung Do Kwan. He had no choice, and never claimed rank he didn't have....."

Absolutely 100% Correct!! And (IMVVHO) I think this is a huge piece of the equation some people never quite get although maybe its not entirely their fault. Too often people talk about a kwan and use terms like 'lineage", "style" and "ryu". I can understand how they come to think this way. I think its the corrupting influence of organizations which tend to color old thinking with new interpretations. Its not awful or terrible just inconvenient. But there are some ways to reconcile such things as old and new thinking. For instance, both Rudy and JR have organizations which are accepting and tolerant of alternate practices of Hapkido arts. Within the context of those organizations, however, both Rudy and JR have their own curriculum founded in their own view of how the Hapkido arts come together for them. In other words, ANYBODY can join an organization and abide by the by-laws and be a member in good standing and certainly benefit by the goods and services of the organization. A kwan requires a person to adopt the view of the teacher, a particular view of how the arts come together, particular motives or values.
If I had to compare the two I would say its a lot like the up-coming presidential election. American elect a president based on popularity. The American Indians designated a leader depending on their needs and his proven track record--- a good negotiator for peace time; a good fighter for a war chief. A think the traditional kwan needs to select their leadership in advance but its not like an assication or federation. Its not like its a matter of someone just filling a designated office. The teacher needs to be revealed to the group with time and practice. Absent that, people like you and me are effectively relegated to our particular rank or standing for the balance of our career. Maybe some people might see that as unfortunate but I think it comes with subscribing to a kwan model rather than the more modern take on things. Whatcha think?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[MichiganTKD]

Some members of our organization have already expressed the opinion that when our Grandmaster passes or retires, his son will take over, much like Jung Hwa Choi taking over one branch of the ITF. I feel this will not happen. For starters, there are Instructors in the organization who outrank him and are senior in age. He is 4th Dan, there are two 7th Dans (pending) and the rest of the Seniors are 6th Dans. No way would they allow even the GM son to run his organization based on the fact that they outrank him.
Also, some of his students have been there from the beginning. It goes back to a question of seniority. I seriously doubt the Instructors would be able to put their various agendas aside and pick a new leader. Politics will always be a factor. No matter who is nominated for President, each Instructor will feel, privately or otherwise, that they could do just as good a job as anyone else. Furthermore, they would not allow themselves to be placed under the administration of a new leader.
Several years, one of our black belts thought our GM should write a book about Tae Kwon Do. I told him it would never happen. First, he would likely delegate that job to any Instructor willing to take on the task. And any Instructor who did would inevitably be compared to the Grandmaster ("he never taught forms like that!" "That's not how he did it!"). They would also think they could do a better job.
In conclusion, I think in many cases the torch cannot be passed because each Instructor thinks they should get it. Passing the torch to a "favored son", blood or not, would inevitably breed resentment and jealousy.
What happens is that each member simply goes their own way and builds their own technique and possibly organization.

 

[Disco]

Some interesting inputs. If memory serves, the old school mindset was that if the head of the style passes, a family member then became the head of the system or if there was no family member, then the senior student became the head. We see that that actually dosen't work. Parker's organization fragmented, the same as Trias's did, the same as almost all will do here in the U.S. I actually think that the way the Kukkiwon is set up is the only way to hold a style somewhat together. I realize that there are plenty of TKD organizations out there, but they too are also fragmented. The ITF is a prime example. It only had one leader, Gen Choi. Now there are 3 or 4 seperate factions claming leadership. So why is the Kukkiwon to be copied? They are the umbrella for many kwans/styles of TKD. So if a kwan head passes, the students and instructors still have a venue to attain progression if the leadership of the kwan should fall into conflict. I don't normally give kudos to the Korean business practices, but this one they seem to have gotten right. Kind of looks like military protocal. Hey!, even a broke clock is right twice a day. :uhyeah:

In an even semi-perfect world, the tenents of the martial arts would take the lead and the true desciples of the discipline would bow to the rule of the senior practicioner becoming the leader. But it's doubtful that there really are anymore true desciples. To be honest, there may truely have never been any, just wishful thinking by people who wanted it to be that way.

 

[glad2bhere]

MichiganTKD's comment reminded me of a something I heard regarding the UTF after the passing of their leader. Apparently a relative turned up out of the blue and stated that he would now take the reins as was his right. The surviving practitioners of standing in the organization advised him respectfully (but firmly) that was not how it was going to be done and continue to manage the organization among themselves with the technical oversight of another authority. I have to admire those kinds of strengths.

I was also wondering if Disco could give a little more info on the KUKKIWON and their management approach. Not being a TKD person I don't know that much about them. What I have heard is that they tend to be more focused on Korean practitioners than non-koreans a'la KIDOHAE in the Hapkido arts. If they have been successful in addresing succession issues I'd like to hear more. I'm especially curious how much their success might be a function of their emphasis on Korean nationals who would, understandably, enjoy a common background in culture and values. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[greendragon]

I know during the last training session with Doju Nim Ji as we were eating a meal he started talking about how he wanted things to be done when he passes away.. he stated to all of us that he didn't want ANYONE to be the leader of Sin Moo Hapkido, he said that he wanted us to all get together on equal footing just like we were doing then and share techniques and have fun without anyone saying they were senior to this person or that person... he also stated that that is what he loved about teaching us was that everyone was friendly, happy, laughing, and having the right mindset and not worrying about who was the senior or who was in charge,, ONLY having love for Hapkido and not anything else to be concerned with... it was a real eye opening experience and it's funny because everytime I go and train with him I feel like I come away from my time with him not only better in my techniques but much better as a good productive human being...
Michael Tomlinson
5th dan Sin Moo Hapkido

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Michael:

Thats is exactly the way I have come to feel about Rudy and JR. They certainly have their own take on their particular arts, but its the atmosphere of sharing that really pulls things together. This last weekend in SSM it was wonderful to have each person kicking a little something into the kitty without someone coming along and making a particular issue about this approach or that. My sense is that there will need to be some kind of overall authority for Sin Mu after Ji is gone in that someone will need to keep an eye on things to make sure that quality doesn't decline, but that gets back to the idea of a teacher "arising" from the ranks. As I write this I am thinking about how the Masonic lodge tends to have people who are heavily invested in the traditions develop into instructors. Its not that their word is law in that sense but only that they uphold standards and act as resources for the rest of the membership. Maybe this is the direction Hapkido will move in the future.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Disco]

All the Kukkiwon is, is a clearing house for rank certification. Nobody needs Kukkiwon certification, just to be recognized as a martial artist. They only need that certification for international competition. But it still can function as an alternate venue for people to continue to upgrade in rank, if they should seperate from their kwan or instructor. As for being focused more on Korean practicioners, one could assume that being HQ'd in Korea and being run by Koreans, that there would be a greater focus on home nationality, but non-Koreans receive the same formula for rank advancement. It's doubtful that a non-Korean will ever be in the governing HQ's body though. The other nice thing is that a TKD person can move about the country or even oversea's and still find a school/instructor - regardless of kwan, that can interface with the Kukkiwon. The AAU here in the U.S. follows a similar format. Even the KHF is suppose to flow along the same lines. Many kwans under one banner and they (KHF) issue rank certifications. Nothing is perfect, which we all have witnessed. The fiscal problem (alledged theft) by the Kukkiwon president, but he has been replaced and the Kukkiwon is still fully functional. There is something to be said for an organization that is not constricted by having only a single person in charge. Just my personal opinion, but I think the Kukkiwon was setup with the format of a majority rule, just to preclude the problems that occured when kwans went into receivership mode. They didn't realize at the time that it would grow to the extent that is has and generate so much funding and political power. I think if the founders knew then what we know now, it never would have happened. But to the benefit of many today, it did happen and I don't really think they could change it without it imploding.

 

[kwanjang]

I think after all is said and done, folks will only follow those who have something to teach. Regardless of who is appointed, if that person does not have what it takes to continue to attract willing followers it is all for naught. So, IMHO, I just have to make sure I have some good people who can teach in order to continue sharing the way we have come to enjoy

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Rudy:

I am going to apologize in advance for this post as it might put you in an uncomfortable spot, but its not as though we have a dozen directors ("kwan jang") responding to this thread.

As mentioned earlier you have individuals that you recognize as being groomed for leadership positions with the NKMAA. In this sense the idea of succession is being addressed in your organization. If you don't mind talking about it, are there any special approaches that you use to encourage the acceptance of your choices for leadership? Put another way, YOU have apparently made YOUR assessments for how you would like succession to follow should something cause you not to be able to lead the organization. Are there things that you do to insure that others in the rank and file will be respectful of your choices and support the succession you have developed? From what I have seen historically, even when leaders designated a sucessor, there is still a tendency for many in the membership not to support the choices. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[kwanjang]

Dear Rudy:

I am going to apologize in advance for this post as it might put you in an uncomfortable spot, but its not as though we have a dozen directors ("kwan jang") responding to this thread.

As mentioned earlier you have individuals that you recognize as being groomed for leadership positions with the NKMAA. In this sense the idea of succession is being addressed in your organization. If you don't mind talking about it, are there any special approaches that you use to encourage the acceptance of your choices for leadership? Put another way, YOU have apparently made YOUR assessments for how you would like succession to follow should something cause you not to be able to lead the organization. Are there things that you do to insure that others in the rank and file will be respectful of your choices and support the succession you have developed? From what I have seen historically, even when leaders designated a sucessor, there is still a tendency for many in the membership not to support the choices. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Not a problem at all Bruce. I am actually quite happy to answer your question. My main goal in preparing for the inevitable has been very simple. I also believe that no matter who I appoint, the final choice will be (and should be) that of the consumer... our members.

In the case of leadership of a kwan, there are a lot of thing to consider. IMHO, although it is an essential component, it is not good enough to have all the techniques of the art down pat if the art is to remain complete. IMHO, it is also a matter of being known and respected by your peers. To this end, I have taken some of my people around to allow them to share their knowledge with others (who then can make up their own minds about these possible leaders). In addition to those qualities, I believe having a strong personality (not just being a leader, but also being a pleasant and honorable person to deal with) is a key component.

Even the most skilled person who has all of the knowledge about the art is a dud, unless people are comfortable enough to learn from him or her. Without having genuine respect for others and their arts, one will become a thorn in the sides of many. IMHO, this will override any desire to be with, let alone learn from, such a person. In effect, it will likely kill the art (as it is) if the wrong man is appointed.

To lead a kwan, you must be good at the art, have a genuine desire to share what you know, be able to effectively communicate, have a pleasant personality, and be forthright and honest about your dealings with others etc. etc. So, my job is not just to teach all the elements of the art. I see my job to instill good etiquette and genuine concern for the welfare of others in my possible leaders as equally important.

To step into a leader's position is a big hole to fill. Not that any one man is so important, but people simply get used to a leader and become comfortable with that person. People hate change, and changing anyone's comfort level is a big hurdle to overcome. If that can't be done, the appointment is useless. For this reason, I try to bring possible leaders with me wherever I go. In this manner, folks who are presently working with me can become comfortable with him or her. In the end, I will have done my best to ensure that there is a continuence of the art I inherited, and that is all a man can do. Hope this helps you understand the way I am personally dealing with this issue.

 

[American HKD]

Greetings,

Good topic.

I've been training with Ji Han Jae since Janurary 2004 it's been really wonderful, in the sense that I feel he's completing my physical, mental and sprtiual aspects of my last 20 plus years in HKD, but I'm worried about who would take over Sin Moo HKD in the future.

I personally dont think anyone can replace Doju Ji because he's very unique and considered by many the founder of the worlds most popular style of HKD.

From other MA such as Ed Parker's system, Bruce Lee, Remy Presas etc. the people with the highest Dans will all say they're the head of the system and most probably fight about it. Then many seperate Assocoations will start up.

That's my opinion on the sad and unfortunate reallity of the MA in general. But maybe thats how evolution works.

Hapki

Stuart Rosenberg