Overcoming the fear of sparring a specific opponent, and my bad habits

skribs

Grandmaster
Joined
Nov 14, 2013
Messages
7,504
Reaction score
2,532
I kinda disagree.

Beating the middle of the road opponent doesnt get you any closer to beating the dominate fighter but small improvements against the dominant fighter creates huge improvements against the middle of the road opponent.

I think that is why my son has had his success. His training partners have always been dominant and it forces him to work harder. Tournaments are easy compared to his training partners.

I'm not talking about beating a middle-of-the-road opponent. I'm talking about sparring an opponent that is somewhat better than you, instead of completely out of your league.

And as you catch up, that difficulty increases.
 

CB Jones

Senior Master
Joined
Feb 20, 2017
Messages
3,938
Reaction score
2,013
Location
Saline
I'm not talking about beating a middle-of-the-road opponent. I'm talking about sparring an opponent that is somewhat better than you, instead of completely out of your league.

And as you catch up, that difficulty increases.

Ok....still in my experience....the more difficult the opponent the better.

It doesnt matter that you are getting dominated...you just keep working and learning.

If you are sparring a 10 every day that 5 doesnt seem so hard to compete against....what can they do that you havent seen. My son goes into most tournaments knowing that he wont have to fight anyone near as good as his every day sparring partners.


Just to add....this worked for him....everyone is different.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

MT Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
12,288
Reaction score
6,399
Location
New York
I'm not talking about beating a middle-of-the-road opponent. I'm talking about sparring an opponent that is somewhat better than you, instead of completely out of your league.

And as you catch up, that difficulty increases.
Depending on where you're at, the person who's somewhat better than you could be a middle of the road opponent. Hell, the person completely out of your league could still be a middle of the road opponent. But you'll never get to the point that you can fight in their metaphoric arena unless you fight them a lot.
 

Gerry Seymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
30,029
Reaction score
10,596
Location
Hendersonville, NC
I think even 2/3 is way too much.

The sparring sessions should be training lessons. If the lesson the green belt needs to learn is humility or respect, then it should be 100% for the whole fight. If the lesson the green belt needs is in strategy or technique, then the sparring session should be enough to push him, but not enough to frustrate him.

I go back to bench pressing. If I can bench 100 pounds for 10 reps, 140 pounds for 5 reps, and 160 pounds for 1 rep, what weight should I train at? 80 pounds to get a ton of reps in? 100 for sets of 10? Maybe 125 or 140 for more resistance at lower reps? It depends on my goal.

I've never seen a workout system where I should do max-weight single-rep sets for anything other than a benchmark. 160 would be dumb. It would be even dumber to train at 180 where I can't even lift the bar.

Sparring is training your mind to use the techniques you've learned. Sparring against someone lower than you is like the 80-100 pound weight. Sparring someone around your level is in the 110-125 where you might be doing medium reps. A higher belt pushing you could be around 140-160, which is good to get in order to see how far you can push yourself. But if the higher belt is the equivalent of trying to bench 200, when you max for 1-rep is 160, then there's no real point. Unless you were bragging about how easy 200 is.

(I know for some these numbers will be low and for some they will be high, that's why this is hypothetical).
There are a couple of things that go around in my head on this one. I'd probably learn more in a technical sense if I spent more than 1/3 of the time working with him (rather than him actually trying to beat me). But I think I'd become a better fighter by dealing with that 2/3. The 1/3 of working with should give me something to focus on to get some openings and make something happen. And learning to fight through those times when I can't seem to make anything happen would be powerful learning.

I actually have - at a very early point in my curriculum - a period where new students aren't allowed to fight back. The sparring is light and technical, but they're allowed no offense. I'm getting them some familiarity with just surviving, using defensive tactics when they get overwhelmed, and keeping their head. I think that's important. The OP could learn that (probably already knows some of it - could learn it better) with this guy. And if the guy is working with him 1/3 of the time, that 2/3 should become less intimidating pretty quickly.
 

skribs

Grandmaster
Joined
Nov 14, 2013
Messages
7,504
Reaction score
2,532
Depending on where you're at, the person who's somewhat better than you could be a middle of the road opponent. Hell, the person completely out of your league could still be a middle of the road opponent. But you'll never get to the point that you can fight in their metaphoric arena unless you fight them a lot.

If the opponent is a middle-of-the-road opponent, then chances are they won't shut down everything and there WILL be an opportunity. Unless the other person is an extreme beginner or is really struggling with the material.

This topic isn't about middle-of-the-road opponents, but someone who is significantly better than everyone else you spar.
 

skribs

Grandmaster
Joined
Nov 14, 2013
Messages
7,504
Reaction score
2,532
There are a couple of things that go around in my head on this one. I'd probably learn more in a technical sense if I spent more than 1/3 of the time working with him (rather than him actually trying to beat me). But I think I'd become a better fighter by dealing with that 2/3. The 1/3 of working with should give me something to focus on to get some openings and make something happen. And learning to fight through those times when I can't seem to make anything happen would be powerful learning.

I actually have - at a very early point in my curriculum - a period where new students aren't allowed to fight back. The sparring is light and technical, but they're allowed no offense. I'm getting them some familiarity with just surviving, using defensive tactics when they get overwhelmed, and keeping their head. I think that's important. The OP could learn that (probably already knows some of it - could learn it better) with this guy. And if the guy is working with him 1/3 of the time, that 2/3 should become less intimidating pretty quickly.

Self defense sparring and Taekwondo sparring are two completely different things (I say this as someone who does both TKD and HKD).
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

MT Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
12,288
Reaction score
6,399
Location
New York
If the opponent is a middle-of-the-road opponent, then chances are they won't shut down everything and there WILL be an opportunity. Unless the other person is an extreme beginner or is really struggling with the material.

This topic isn't about middle-of-the-road opponents, but someone who is significantly better than everyone else you spar.
Thats exactly what cb was saying though. The middle of the road opponent is the one who might be slightly netter than you, but youll gain more by fighting the completely dominant opponent.

But what i was saying there is depending on what arena you're talking about the middle of the road opponent could still dominate you. The low-end olympic athletes, could probably dominate 95% of people in their style, but when you look at them at the olympic level, they are middle of the road
 

skribs

Grandmaster
Joined
Nov 14, 2013
Messages
7,504
Reaction score
2,532
Thats exactly what cb was saying though. The middle of the road opponent is the one who might be slightly netter than you, but youll gain more by fighting the completely dominant opponent.

But what i was saying there is depending on what arena you're talking about the middle of the road opponent could still dominate you. The low-end olympic athletes, could probably dominate 95% of people in their style, but when you look at them at the olympic level, they are middle of the road

They're only "middle of the road" because you narrow the scope to those elite few. When you cherry-pick your statistics you can make any argument you want.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

MT Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
12,288
Reaction score
6,399
Location
New York
They're only "middle of the road" because you narrow the scope to those elite few. When you cherry-pick your statistics you can make any argument you want.
Actually, that wasn't part of my argument. I was just explaining how middle of the road can mean different things to different people. And your middle of the road is someone elses "significantly better than me"
 

Buka

Sr. Grandmaster
Staff member
MT Mentor
Joined
Jun 27, 2011
Messages
12,995
Reaction score
10,525
Location
Maui
I think it depends on the individual and their compeitiveness.

Someone with a high competitive spirit is gonna benefit more from being dominated and will push harder to improve.

Whereas someone with a less competitive spirit will just be beat down more.

For my son, he improved more working with older students that were rough on him. Forced him to improve quicker so he didnt get knocked around as much.


You're right, bro. And that's where a good instructor is important. Teaching fighting arts has a lot to do with recognizing and somewhat managing different personalities as well as physical skills, or potential skills.
 

Gerry Seymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
30,029
Reaction score
10,596
Location
Hendersonville, NC
Self defense sparring and Taekwondo sparring are two completely different things (I say this as someone who does both TKD and HKD).
True enough. But we're dealing with some of the same basic reactions in both. @drop bear has brought this up in reference to the way folks at his gym prep for MMA, too. Sometimes (more often for some folks than others) we react badly when overwhelmed, and learning to deal with that overwhelm and keep cool enough to regain some control from the eye of the storm is a powerful tool.
 

Gerry Seymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
30,029
Reaction score
10,596
Location
Hendersonville, NC
They're only "middle of the road" because you narrow the scope to those elite few. When you cherry-pick your statistics you can make any argument you want.
I think "middle of the road" is always (like "average") going to be relative to the population. A "middle of the road" kicker in a decent TKD school would be the star kicker at most NGA schools.
 

CB Jones

Senior Master
Joined
Feb 20, 2017
Messages
3,938
Reaction score
2,013
Location
Saline
I think "middle of the road" is always (like "average") going to be relative to the population. A "middle of the road" kicker in a decent TKD school would be the star kicker at most NGA schools.

I'll clarify....when I stated middle of the road...I meant the opponent that's skill level is between your level and the dominant fighter's level.
 

Balrog

Master of Arts
Joined
Feb 11, 2007
Messages
1,764
Reaction score
482
Location
Houston, TX
I
I move around. A lot. This is mostly because, of me suffering my first knockout in boxing a while back, trying to block a hook from someone much bigger and stronger than me. The fear of this also causes me a lot of problems with agression and offense in a fight (or lackthereof), me not being able to get myself to punch with my back hand for fear of being too exposed, and whenever I dodge, it's almost always backwards.
That's a rough thing to overcome, and the only thing that will help, believe it or not, is getting hit again and learning that you can take the hit. I teach a sparring stance where the hands are not always in the same area. They move randomly, so that the opponent doesn't have a constant target to find a hole in. However, at least one hand is ALWAYS up to protect the head. You might see if something like that works for you.
Back to new guy, I cannot touch him whatsoever; even if I try to get close, he manages to kick me incredibly hard considering it should be harder for him to use his legs when I'm all up in there, and he also creates and maintains his distance super well. Moreover, he feints his kicks so much and they're so damn quick. He doesn't use his hands at all, and doesn't ever punch.

I have a lot of trouble being offensive against my normal sparring opponents as it is (though I've been overcoming it slowly and made some progress last week) but against the new guy, who is also bigger, faster and older, I simply can't defend or attack. Especially with my bad dodging backwards habit. He punishes me brutally with axe kicks to the head. He is very agressive, arrogant and annoying, but I can't really say anything about it.

How do I overcome these problems and fears? What do I do? Please help. Thanks.
The best way to overcome the habit of dodging backward is to spar with your back against a wall. That way, you can't go backward, You can only evade to the side (or straight over your opponent), and that is preferable. We call it V-in, V-out, for the direction of travel. If you stay on your opponent's attack line, they will continue to attack. Once you evade off the line, they now have to break their attack to change direction and that's a great time to counter-attack.

As far as the continually getting you....that's what 3rd Degrees should do to Green Belts! :D
However, they should also teach. Perhaps you can go to him and ask him to show you some block/counter combos, or offensive combos, and work drills with him. I would think that he would be happy to help you with that.
 

JP3

Master Black Belt
Supporting Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2015
Messages
1,388
Reaction score
701
Location
Houston
Go jam that boy, stay inside his shirt.
I haven't heard that saying in years! Ha! Not much call for being inside the other guy's skin in the judo/aikido mat-space. I heard it the first time when the boxing coach at my muay thai gym said it to me when I was about to spar with a guy who'd been there quite a bit longer than I. I … had... figured to kickbox him, but the coach was way smarter than my dumba$$… the guy would have leg kicked me like he was cutting down a tree. Instead.. it was the super-tight treatment, which I found out, right then, that I liked. A lot. Body hooks, one-hand head clinch, shift knee (can't do those in all training, I get it), upper cut when they duck a choppy head hook. All from basically inside a standing guard. Brutal way to fight. Got to have good core/abs though, since the way out of it is to gut blast the guy who is tight on you.

@Buka... I'd never have thought that Bill Wallace would have "boxed" anyone. I mean, I know he could, just didn't know he ever had to.
 

Buka

Sr. Grandmaster
Staff member
MT Mentor
Joined
Jun 27, 2011
Messages
12,995
Reaction score
10,525
Location
Maui
I haven't heard that saying in years! Ha! Not much call for being inside the other guy's skin in the judo/aikido mat-space. I heard it the first time when the boxing coach at my muay thai gym said it to me when I was about to spar with a guy who'd been there quite a bit longer than I. I … had... figured to kickbox him, but the coach was way smarter than my dumba$$… the guy would have leg kicked me like he was cutting down a tree. Instead.. it was the super-tight treatment, which I found out, right then, that I liked. A lot. Body hooks, one-hand head clinch, shift knee (can't do those in all training, I get it), upper cut when they duck a choppy head hook. All from basically inside a standing guard. Brutal way to fight. Got to have good core/abs though, since the way out of it is to gut blast the guy who is tight on you.

@Buka... I'd never have thought that Bill Wallace would have "boxed" anyone. I mean, I know he could, just didn't know he ever had to.

Bill had very good hands. Especially when he went from sport Karate to ring fighting.

And he was wicked smart.
 

Buka

Sr. Grandmaster
Staff member
MT Mentor
Joined
Jun 27, 2011
Messages
12,995
Reaction score
10,525
Location
Maui
Spoken like a true Masshole. ;) I went to college in Mass, and I heard “wicked” everything. Haven’t heard it in a while.

You went to college in Massachusetts? Bro, that's wicked pissa!
 

JR 137

Grandmaster
Joined
Apr 26, 2015
Messages
5,162
Reaction score
3,224
Location
In the dojo
You went to college in Massachusetts? Bro, that's wicked pissa!
Yup. The armpit of America - North Adams. Most students were from the Boston area. I became a popular guy my first day - wearing my Yankees hat. I honestly wasn’t even thinking about it. I had so many people say so many things to me. I just had to rock that hat every day.
 

Buka

Sr. Grandmaster
Staff member
MT Mentor
Joined
Jun 27, 2011
Messages
12,995
Reaction score
10,525
Location
Maui
Yup. The armpit of America - North Adams. Most students were from the Boston area. I became a popular guy my first day - wearing my Yankees hat. I honestly wasn’t even thinking about it. I had so many people say so many things to me. I just had to rock that hat every day.

I grew up in the city of Boston.....as a New York Yankees fan. You know why? My dad used to take me to Fenway Park to see the great Ted Williams. Maybe the best hitter of all time. Afterwards my dad would let me wait around where the players came out so I could get autographs.

Sometimes, if the Sox lost or it was starting to rain or if the game went extra innings and the time was getting late, the Sox players would say “not today, fellas, next time”. But the Yankees, win or lose, rain or shine, regardless of the hour, would sign every kid’s everything. Your hat, your glove, the program, your baseball cards.

I said to my father, “Daddy, I like these guys better than our guys.” He said, “Son, this is America. You can like anyone you want.”

I’m still a Yankees fan.
 
Top