Outsource the schools to private industry

newGuy12

Master of Arts
Joined
Sep 7, 2007
Messages
1,691
Reaction score
63
Location
In the Doggy Pound!
I think that public schools should be outsourced to private industries. There has been talk about this -- school vouchers and so on. This must be the right thing to do. I am motivated to post this because of all of the recent threads about bad things that happen in the school system.

Now, Haliburton should not get the bid, haha, the system should have some kind of competition, where the "market" (parents) can choose, and then the best schools win, naturally.

The schools can be given freedom to be run as is seen fit. Whichever is judged to be the best ones (according to attendance -- the parents choose to send the students there), then they will be the ones to survive over time.

Of course, all of these schools should have a strong Martial Arts curriculum for the physical education, as well! :enguard::jedi1:
 

Makalakumu

Gonzo Karate Apocalypse
MT Mentor
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
13,887
Reaction score
232
Location
Hawaii
With that being said, I think we need to look beyond arguments of whether to privatize or not. REAL education is important to this country and I think that our country should invest in it. The stupifying crap that most of our kids learn nowdays in order to mold generations of sheep has to go.

My solution is dynamite.

Literally.

All departments of education at the state and federal level need to go. The more we let people from thousands of miles away dictate what goes on in the classroom, the more we kill the spirit of education. The more we kill the real relationship between student and teacher.

Whether you have state run institutions or privatized business, it won't matter unless this is changed.
 

Makalakumu

Gonzo Karate Apocalypse
MT Mentor
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
13,887
Reaction score
232
Location
Hawaii
After we get rid of these institutions, I think it is a good decision to give parents the decision regarding the education of their children.

Other countries use a models where the child gets a certain stipend from the state (the stipend varies from complete coverage of tuition costs to a portion). I would argue that a complete stipend is necessary.

Regardless, what this does is that it creates options for parents. No longer do you giant megaschools that force children through a generalized program aimed at the 50th percentile.

Now you get programs based on the interests of the children. Programs that are specifically tailored to meet their education needs. You have children with special needs? Now worries, now a school would exist that would specifically revolve around providing for those needs. No more slipping through the cracks of a giant beauracracy.

You got kids who are college bound? Wonderful! Now they can attend the best college prep schools and not be surrounded by an ocean of uncommitted morons.

Heck, there wouldn't even be many of those anymore because they could truly find a place that stimulated their minds.

Homeschoolers? Unschoolers? Now parents would have the resources to make these options even better. Imagine a homeschool program taught by a dedicated parent like my wife and I (both college graduates with advanced degrees, who are experienced travellers, and very knowledgable in many other subjects). Give me $15,000 per child and when I'm teaching them about the history of China, we are going to GO TO CHINA! Or if I'm teaching them geology, I'm going to get in the car and TEACH THEM GEOLOGY!

It's all there. I don't know why we put up with it. All of these options really are possible. We just need to make the decision to step out of the "state controlled conciousness model" we have now.
 

Kacey

Sr. Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
Jan 3, 2006
Messages
16,462
Reaction score
227
Location
Denver, CO
After we get rid of these institutions, I think it is a good decision to give parents the decision regarding the education of their children.

I have met parents who were capable of making this decision appropriately; I have met parents who are not. The reasons they are incapable are widely variant - they do not speak English or speak it poorly; they do not have the time/expertise to choose a school that is truly appropriate for their child; they do not have the education themselves necessary to make an informed choice; they do not have access to transportation to get their child to the appropriate school even if they can choose it correctly; they are academically unable (for the reasons given above) to support their child appropriately even if the child is in the appropriate school; they do not have a clear understanding of their child's actual abilities and needs (too high or too low); etc., ad nauseum, ad infinitum. Should parents have their children's best interests in mind (in education and in other things)? Of course they should - but that doesn't mean that all parents are competent to make these decisions. Would you make medical decisions independent of a medical professional if you have the choice to confer with one? And yet, I have met innumerable parents who make academic choices for their students, based on the parents' desires and expectations much more than the child's needs and abilities (both too high and too low, and in opposition to the child's strengths and interests), and argue vehemently when teachers attempt to tell them why the choice they made is not in the child's best interests.

Other countries use a models where the child gets a certain stipend from the state (the stipend varies from complete coverage of tuition costs to a portion). I would argue that a complete stipend is necessary.

I would argue against it, for the reasons given above. In addition, while I do think that schools are too big, centralization of services allows for a greater range of options for students, and school choice (which is available without vouchers or other methods of removing funding from schools in most states) allows students and their families to choose from options that would be unavailable in smaller settings - not that the schools need to be so large, but that the variety needs to be available within a certain radius.

Regardless, what this does is that it creates options for parents. No longer do you giant megaschools that force children through a generalized program aimed at the 50th percentile.

I'm not disputing this. The biggest push for a generalized program is not coming from the schools; rather, it is coming from the federal government, in the form of the Elementary and Secondary Education Act, more commonly known as the No Child Left Behind law, which assumes that legislating student achievement (without funding to pay for the testing, and the threat of losing other funding if the testing is not done) is enough to make it so, and that the threat of losing yet more funds for failure is sufficient motivation. The law is so universally decried - not for the accountability, which so many assume teachers which to avoid - but because basing accountability on what students do on one high-stakes test flies in the face of common sense; there are too many factors out of the school's control that affect how a student will perform on a given task on a given day - smaller, standards-based checks performed at regular intervals would be a much better method of making teachers accountable for the students they have at that time than a massive test, the results of which are not known until the students have moved to the next grade.

Now you get programs based on the interests of the children. Programs that are specifically tailored to meet their education needs. You have children with special needs? Now worries, now a school would exist that would specifically revolve around providing for those needs. No more slipping through the cracks of a giant beauracracy.

It's a nice thought - and it was tried, when special education first became widespread. Targeted instruction is a great tool in it's place, but segregating students by ability and disability proved to be detrimental; students had only those of their own abilities to compare themselves to, and for those who were not in the highest group (and some who were) the lack of others to compare themselves to and strive to match - not to mention the lack of diversity in ability and viewpoint which triggers independent thought and exploration - had a significantly negative effect on students which more than outweighed any (demonstrably slight) benefit gained by the segregated classrooms. For those without disabilities, it also isolated them from their disabled, or differently abled, peers, leaving them less aware of their actual abilities, and reducing the development of acceptance and understanding that I see in students today - despite all the news stories to the contrary about bullying and other negative interactions, I see many students at my middle schools learning compassion from their differently abled peers, which will serve them well in the future.

You got kids who are college bound? Wonderful! Now they can attend the best college prep schools and not be surrounded by an ocean of uncommitted morons.

Heck, there wouldn't even be many of those anymore because they could truly find a place that stimulated their minds.

One of the biggest concerns I have with the current climate of education is that, in the push for high standards, the programs that are tailored for students for whom college is just not the right choice - specifically, trade school students, those who want to become anything from mechanics to computer techs to beauticians, etc. - those programs are being squeezed out of existence by the insistence that all students take the courses that used to be only in the college prep track. Those classes - both the college prep classes and the tech classes - should be available to all students, based on ability and interest - and providing that type of programming would improve the level of interest and investment in the students who are in them. Forcing a student who wants to be a mechanic and doesn't like (or isn't good at) advanced math to take differential calculus is guaranteed to make him or her uninterested, which leads to behavior problems; likewise, so is forcing a student who wants to be a doctor or lawyer to take classes in musical theory, unless they are actually interested in it. Choice is the key, and our current federal laws are driving that choice out of the schools.

Homeschoolers? Unschoolers? Now parents would have the resources to make these options even better. Imagine a homeschool program taught by a dedicated parent like my wife and I (both college graduates with advanced degrees, who are experienced travellers, and very knowledgable in many other subjects). Give me $15,000 per child and when I'm teaching them about the history of China, we are going to GO TO CHINA! Or if I'm teaching them geology, I'm going to get in the car and TEACH THEM GEOLOGY!

Some parents make great educators for their own children; others find that they are lacking in either expertise or objectivity when it comes to teaching their own children. Then, too, there is the issue of time - for many parents, who are single parents, or whose families need the income of both parents, home schooling is impossible for logistical reasons. The oversight necessary to ensure that homeschoolers receive appropriate educations is massive, and massively expensive - and the appropriate use of funding is one of the key concerns.

It's all there. I don't know why we put up with it. All of these options really are possible. We just need to make the decision to step out of the "state controlled conciousness model" we have now.

Again, I agree that control of the schools should be at the local level; federal control is based in some interesting interpretations of federal law as relates to interstate commerce, in which education is defined as a commodity to be bartered across state lines, as well as anti-discrimination laws, which led to desegregation and special education laws - and thus the federal government became involved in something that should have been left, at its largest, to the states.
 

Makalakumu

Gonzo Karate Apocalypse
MT Mentor
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
13,887
Reaction score
232
Location
Hawaii
One of the things that I think needs to be defined before we go on are the following...

1. Ability
2. Education
3. Progress
4. Value

These terms are pregnant with assumed meaning. The end result is a form of circular reasoning. If we define these terms within the bounds of the educational system, then any deviation from that system is impossible.

Kacey, as a school teacher myself, I would strongly recommend taking a look at more of John Taylor Gatto's work.

At the very least, check this out...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...=47&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=3

I'll reply more when I have more time...
 

Cryozombie

Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
Feb 11, 2003
Messages
9,998
Reaction score
206
"Jennifer Government" by Maxx Barry.

Thats how I see Privatized schools.
 

Kacey

Sr. Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
Jan 3, 2006
Messages
16,462
Reaction score
227
Location
Denver, CO
Kacey, as a school teacher myself, I would strongly recommend taking a look at more of John Taylor Gatto's work.

Honestly? I'm not likely to any time soon. After 15 years, every year (usually several times a year) someone comes out with "the solution". I teach in a high needs school; I teach at-risk students. I speak from my experience. No offense to you or the Mr. Gatto - but I know what problems the parents of my students face, because many of them have discussed them with me in despair. I know that many would like to choice their children into other schools in the district that are newer, that have a higher average SES, that have higher test scores - and they can't, because they can't transport their children there, for a variety of reasons, and even those who can provide transportation often can't get their kids into the school they'd like, because it's full and won't take more choice students.

We offer lots of extra services at my school - there's formal, free tutoring 3 days a week after school; most teachers have extra help sessions in addition before and/or after school; over half the student population qualifies for free lunch; over 1/3 of the school population is ELL to some degree; 1/7 of the population is in special education. These kids come in behind, and in 3 years of middle school, average 4 years of growth... and yet, under the law, we are a failing school, because we missed our growth goal by 3 points out 750. Are there things still going wrong at the school? Of course there are - but to blame the schools, without looking at the circumstances of the lives of the students, is ludicrous, and I, for one, am tired of working my butt off so that people can blame me for the lack of success of one of my students who's missed over 30% of the school year, because his mother won't make him come; another who broke his glasses and can't afford new ones, but his mother won't take "charity" from the school, and his vision is 20/200 in each eye without them; another who refuses to bring his supplies, even though we've given him a complete set 4 times because it's not "cool", and his father tells him it's okay; another whose father is leaving for CA tomorrow, and told the teachers but not his daughter, because he thinks it will be "easier" on her that way... I could go on, but you get the idea.

This is not a school problem - this is a societal problem, and until society gets off it's collective butt and puts some value on education - actual education, not a test score - nothing is going to change, except that as the standards for NCLB continue to get higher, fewer schools are going to meet them. It's already happening - schools that are known for high college entrance exam scores, schools that are known for National Merit Scholars, schools that are known for the quality of their students in many ways, are failing to meet the standards set by NCLB more and more - not because they are bad schools, but because the accountability standards are measuring the wrong things, because that's what a badly written law requires, and because society allows it to continue.

"It takes a village" is trite, I know - but that's really what it comes down to. Localities need to involve themselves in schools beyond complaining when taxes go up to pay for schools - they need to volunteer, they need to let kids know school is cool and worthwhile, they need to decide what is truly important for schools to teach, instead of dumping social program after social program on the schools. Schools teach an ever-increasing list of subjects - from bicycle safety to basic manners to budgeting - because they are not being taught at home, and schools are picking up the slack, but it's reached a point where the mandatory curriculum takes 22,000 hours to teach, and a child who misses no school at all attends for 19,000 hours. Some of this stuff needs to transfer back to the community and the families instead of the schools.
 

Sukerkin

Have the courage to speak softly
MT Mentor
Lifetime Supporting Member
MTS Alumni
Joined
Sep 15, 2006
Messages
15,325
Reaction score
493
Location
Staffordshire, England
Quote from Kacey:

"This is not a school problem - this is a societal problem, and until society gets off it's collective butt and puts some value on education - actual education, not a test score - nothing is going to change, except that as the standards for NCLB continue to get higher, fewer schools are going to meet them. It's already happening - schools that are known for high college entrance exam scores, schools that are known for National Merit Scholars, schools that are known for the quality of their students in many ways, are failing to meet the standards set by NCLB more and more - not because they are bad schools, but because the accountability standards are measuring the wrong things, because that's what a badly written law requires, and because society allows it to continue."


This is oh-so-true.

Bean-counters kill everything that does not show a short-term profit and education is the primary example of an endeavour that doesn't do that.

Education is a lever with the fulcrum close to one end. That means that the impulse producer (the school) expends nearly all the effort but sees very little of the output that benefits society (the economy).

It's ever flabbergasted me that more is not spent on education as is it quite literally The Future and with the degradation of standards that I have witnessed in my life-time I have little hope that we can maintain a technological society with the output we're getting.

Disclaimer: I have degrees in Economics, Museum Studies and Computer Studies and work as a power system control system engineer and have worked in disciplines requiring the arts, social science and hard science.

In the time encompassed by that study and work I have seen the intelligence and knowledge of people coming into these fields decline markedly.

This is anecdotal evidence but is exemplified by the occaisions I meet a supposed graduate Engineer in my current line of work who does not know what a 'building block' piece of kit does or how it works.

If we don't sort this out,the First World will become the Third World in one or two generations.
 

kidswarrior

Senior Master
Joined
Jan 27, 2007
Messages
2,697
Reaction score
152
Location
California
newGuy12 said:
I think that public schools should be outsourced to private industries. There has been talk about this -- school vouchers and so on. This must be the right thing to do. I am motivated to post this because of all of the recent threads about bad things that happen in the school system.
When I post on a topic I know little to nothing about, I like to preface it with s.th. like, This is not my area, but I have an idea and would like to know what those who are more expert think about it. This leap from, I've read a few threads lately, to *The Dramatic Solution* is a bit astounding to me, and probably to others who've spent years, or decades, in the field of K-12 education.

After 15 years, every year (usually several times a year) someone comes out with "the solution". I teach in a high needs school; I teach at-risk students. I speak from my experience.

We offer lots of extra services at my school...These kids come in behind, and in 3 years of middle school, average 4 years of growth... and yet, under the law, we are a failing school, because we missed our growth goal by 3 points out 750. Are there things still going wrong at the school? Of course there are - but to blame the schools, without looking at the circumstances of the lives of the students, is ludicrous, and I, for one, am tired of working my butt off so that people can blame me for the lack of success of one of my students who's missed over 30% of the school year, because his mother won't make him come; another who broke his glasses and can't afford new ones, but his mother won't take "charity" from the school, and his vision is 20/200 in each eye without them; another who refuses to bring his supplies, even though we've given him a complete set 4 times because it's not "cool", and his father tells him it's okay; another whose father is leaving for CA tomorrow, and told the teachers but not his daughter, because he thinks it will be "easier" on her that way... I could go on, but you get the idea.

This is not a school problem - this is a societal problem....it's reached a point where the mandatory curriculum takes 22,000 hours to teach, and a child who misses no school at all attends for 19,000 hours. Some of this stuff needs to transfer back to the community and the families instead of the schools.

Would have also quoted the graph that Skn did, but he beat me to it, then followed with a post that flat puts me to shame in its incisiveness and cogency. Still, couldn't resist quoting the above. Kacey, I'd rep you for each of the many salient points you make if I could; you truly effectively spell out the problem. A yeoman's job. Thank you. :asian:
 

Marginal

Senior Master
Joined
Jul 7, 2002
Messages
3,276
Reaction score
67
Location
Colorado
I think that public schools should be outsourced to private industries. There has been talk about this -- school vouchers and so on. This must be the right thing to do. I am motivated to post this because of all of the recent threads about bad things that happen in the school system.

Now, Haliburton should not get the bid, haha, the system should have some kind of competition, where the "market" (parents) can choose, and then the best schools win, naturally.
Haliburton's one of the results of the great all knowing market. Why is it always assumed that consumers continuously make the right decisions and that private enterprise is somehow innately efficient?
 

kidswarrior

Senior Master
Joined
Jan 27, 2007
Messages
2,697
Reaction score
152
Location
California
Haliburton's one of the results of the great all knowing market. Why is it always assumed that consumers continuously make the right decisions and that private enterprise is somehow innately efficient?
Yeah, kinda like the line of reasoning that says popular= right--the American Idol mentality, in this case applied to education.
 

Sukerkin

Have the courage to speak softly
MT Mentor
Lifetime Supporting Member
MTS Alumni
Joined
Sep 15, 2006
Messages
15,325
Reaction score
493
Location
Staffordshire, England
The problem with the free market is that it is a blind, amoral, idiot-savant with no memory and no notion of the long-term.

As a way of keeping the flow of money rotating, it works quite well (apart from some fairly dire financial side-effects) but as a way to construct a society it is a dangerous path if noone keeps an eye on it.

Mixed economies are the best solution we've come up with so far, wherein the government manages those things considered vital to the public good and lets the market handle the rest. The problem with that is getting the governing organism to operate honestly and in a timely fashion - nothing is perfect after all :D.

The rational consumer hypothesis and the perfection of private enterprise's information are two of the sacred cows of basic economics (along with ceterus paribus ROFL) and they are essentially not true.
 

kidswarrior

Senior Master
Joined
Jan 27, 2007
Messages
2,697
Reaction score
152
Location
California
The rational consumer hypothesis and the perfection of private enterprise's information are two of the sacred cows of basic economics (along with ceterus paribus ROFL) and they are essentially not true.
The problem with the privatization solution in a nutshell. Good job, skn. :asian: And that's what I meant to say. :D But spending my time with teenagers (yes, full time :eek:) mostly causes me to articulate in monosyllables. :bangahead:

*ceterus paribus* Let's see.... **dusts off old college Latin dictionary** Ah, I'll do it later. :)
 

Makalakumu

Gonzo Karate Apocalypse
MT Mentor
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
13,887
Reaction score
232
Location
Hawaii
One of the biggest problems with compulsory schooling is that its become too many things for too many people. Any large system is going to get overwhelmed and overwhelmingly expensive when demands like what we see today are placed upon it.

Education really isn't just about education anymore. Our schools have turned into parents. And this was all done by design (see my sources above). The end result is that our modern schools have been morphed from education institutions to indoctrination/social engineering institutions. Real, meaningful, education doesn't really happen because our children's minds are being treated dumping zones for material.

Those that conform the best to this treatment are honored with ever higher and deeper piles of this material as well as opportunities for responsibility. While those that conform the least are honored with the least.

Never mind actually being taught how to learn or why to learn or when to learn...

Private industry isn't going to solve this problem...which is the root of all arguments for privatization.

Real solutions can be found in changing the way we think about kids. Changing the way we think about school. Changing our assumptions about the purpose of education. We need challenge all of our assumptions about learning and actually teach kids in a way that best fits the development of their minds.

Rudolf Steiner has some interesting ideas regarding this and Waldorf Education is a very interesting and provacative way of implementing them. This isn't going to work with every child, but options like these are what parents need in order to find the best fit for their child. The argument that "some parents don't have the skills to choose" is arrogant in some respect and somewhat diminished by the existance of social workers. Having a stipend program, like I described above would have to include advisors who are versed in helping people make the best decisions if they require it.

Regardless of all this, I don't have all the answers, but I do know that we can't keep going on like we are going. We need to challenge our priorities as a nation. When the price of a missile costs as much as it does to run an alternative school for a year, there is something very wrong with this.
 

Kacey

Sr. Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
Jan 3, 2006
Messages
16,462
Reaction score
227
Location
Denver, CO
One of the biggest problems with compulsory schooling is that its become too many things for too many people. Any large system is going to get overwhelmed and overwhelmingly expensive when demands like what we see today are placed upon it.

Education really isn't just about education anymore. Our schools have turned into parents. And this was all done by design (see my sources above). The end result is that our modern schools have been morphed from education institutions to indoctrination/social engineering institutions. Real, meaningful, education doesn't really happen because our children's minds are being treated dumping zones for material.

Those that conform the best to this treatment are honored with ever higher and deeper piles of this material as well as opportunities for responsibility. While those that conform the least are honored with the least.

Never mind actually being taught how to learn or why to learn or when to learn...

Private industry isn't going to solve this problem...which is the root of all arguments for privatization.

Real solutions can be found in changing the way we think about kids. Changing the way we think about school. Changing our assumptions about the purpose of education. We need challenge all of our assumptions about learning and actually teach kids in a way that best fits the development of their minds.

I agree with all of the above... and, in fact, that is largely what I said myself, but from a different direction. Too many parents have abrogated their responsibilities for raising their children, and society has placed those responsibilities on the schools - where the vast majority of such responsibilities do not belong, but until other segments of society step up and take responsibility, there's very little in the way of options available at the moment.

Rudolf Steiner has some interesting ideas regarding this and Waldorf Education is a very interesting and provacative way of implementing them. This isn't going to work with every child, but options like these are what parents need in order to find the best fit for their child. The argument that "some parents don't have the skills to choose" is arrogant in some respect and somewhat diminished by the existance of social workers. Having a stipend program, like I described above would have to include advisors who are versed in helping people make the best decisions if they require it.

As far as the part in bold goes... I guess you've met different parents than I have. I have, currently, in a class of 9 students, 3 students whose parents no more than 14 years older than their children, 2 who don't understand why the school is taking them to court just because their kids' attendance is under 70%, 1 whose mother was in special ed herself and never graduated high school (and is proud of it), and 1 whose 13 year-old daughter has been on psychotropic medication since she was 3 at mom's insistence because, in mom's opinion (and mom is an RN) she was not an easy child (sleeping problems, mostly), and was diagnosed with bipolar disorder and ADHD - at 3, remember - but didn't see a psychiatrist until last month... and all of these students have some connection with social services and have been seen by social workers, none of whom have ever bothered to contact the school, and only one of whom could be bothered to call the school back when we attempted to contact her. That's 7 parents out of 9 who's parenting is a cause for concern, and who are involved with social workers who are, at best, overworked and not interested in kids who are not being actively molested or physically abused. So my viewpoint, based on my experiences, is different from yours. I would like to think that all (or at least most) parents could make the correct decisions for their children, educationally and otherwise, and that society (in the form of social workers or other appropriate personnel) would help those who don't - but I've had a lot of experience with kids for whom that idea just hasn't worked.

Regardless of all this, I don't have all the answers, but I do know that we can't keep going on like we are going. We need to challenge our priorities as a nation. When the price of a missile costs as much as it does to run an alternative school for a year, there is something very wrong with this.

I agree with this part as well. The problems with education are societal, and extend well beyond the schools - especially when the schools are considered the key factor in children's development, and see the average child less than 10% of their waking time from the ages of 5-18.
 

Makalakumu

Gonzo Karate Apocalypse
MT Mentor
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
13,887
Reaction score
232
Location
Hawaii
Kacey - I've had the same parents as you. I've had parents who have put vodka in a child's bottle in order to put them to sleep (that was reported!). What can you really do when they make terrible decisions for their children? Doesn't that start a terrible precedent that begins to erode ultimately what all parents can decide?

Also, isn't it obvious that when these parents are so dumbed down and disconnected that the system hasn't worked for them? Maybe different options would have helped pull them in better? Maybe a smaller setting with more intensive social work would have been appropriate?

Lastly, what if some parents just don't want to be helped?
 

Kacey

Sr. Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
Jan 3, 2006
Messages
16,462
Reaction score
227
Location
Denver, CO
Kacey - I've had the same parents as you. I've had parents who have put vodka in a child's bottle in order to put them to sleep (that was reported!). What can you really do when they make terrible decisions for their children? Doesn't that start a terrible precedent that begins to erode ultimately what all parents can decide?

I think that's already happening - and not just in the schools. I don't even think the schools are the primary problem - or we in the schools wouldn't mandate parental attendance at special ed meetings, attendance hearings, discipline hearings, awards, etc., then reschedule meetings 3 or more times in an attempt to find a time when the parents will actually show. How many parents don't discipline their children because of pop psychiatry that tells them to be their kids' friends instead of their parents? How many bow to social pressures to give their kids things instead of attention?

Also, isn't it obvious that when these parents are so dumbed down and disconnected that the system hasn't worked for them? Maybe different options would have helped pull them in better? Maybe a smaller setting with more intensive social work would have been appropriate?

This comes back to your point about the money spent on missiles vs. the money spent on education - which brings to mind one of my favorite bumper stickers:

"It will be a great day when the schools and libraries have all the money they need, and the armed forces have to hold a bake sale to buy a bomber."

Where do you expect to find the money for these programs? For that matter, given the common misperceptions of social workers (which job was defined by one of my students yesterday as "the lady who takes kids away from their family") prevent many people from seeking help from social workers or anyone in the social services field unless forced - and then they accept such help only grudgingly; likewise, many people do not seek mental health assistance because of the general (if slowly changing) perception of mental health services in general.

This is not a school problem - it is a societal problem - and until society gets off its collective butt and works as a society to fix this issue, it's going to remain a problem.

Lastly, what if some parents just don't want to be helped?

This is, indeed, a key part of the problem - and people who don't want to be helped frequently cannot be helped unless forced, and then it doesn't work well; "a man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still".
 

Sukerkin

Have the courage to speak softly
MT Mentor
Lifetime Supporting Member
MTS Alumni
Joined
Sep 15, 2006
Messages
15,325
Reaction score
493
Location
Staffordshire, England
I can't rep you for those sentiments, Kacey so, as I say under these circumstances, it's the embarassment of public praise for you :D.
 

Makalakumu

Gonzo Karate Apocalypse
MT Mentor
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
13,887
Reaction score
232
Location
Hawaii
As far as long term prospects, I think I picked the wrong career. I became a teacher because I wanted to help children learn how to develop their intellects and become the best that they could be. When I found out some of the things I've posted above and I really started to questions what I was doing. For now, I'm content to quietly buck the system and wave the one finger salute to the authorities (two fingers salute for you brits).

The time is coming, however, where this is not going to possible. The massive, state-run, artifice that we feed is pumping out propaganda and social engineering faster then ever. Heck, our state is going to have a mandatory social studies exam that students need in order to graduate. The bulk of this exam will be in history...

This is nothing other then a dipstick to measure a students' conformity to a state approved version of history.

It's unbeleivable. In a generation, critical thought will be gone in this country under this regime. Unless we change how we think about education. Children are not cogs in some societal wheel striving towards some utopia dreamed up in some ivory tower.

We are all just humans trying to find our way in this world. The freedom to do this the way we please is proving to be a fleeting thing...

Unfortunately.
 

Latest Discussions

Top