Our Inevitably Diminishing Resources and Degraded Environment

Discussion in 'The Study' started by elder999, Jul 30, 2014.

  1. Makalakumu

    Makalakumu Gonzo Karate Apocalypse

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    Pollutants can make the environment unfit for humans, but those things can change. Those things HAVE changed in many dramatic ways in fact. I see more and more people interested in restoring natural environments and in preservation everyday. The cynical perspective is a relic of irrational religious propositions that ignore human potential.
     
  2. elder999

    elder999 El Oso de Dios!

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    "Human behaviors can change....as we become increasingly rational"

    I'd say that the evidence of all recorded history demonstrates that humankind's capacity for reason has not increased one iota-and probably has not changed in more than 100000 years.


    This is blatantly false: the atmospheric content of CO2 has gone from 290 ppm to 400 ppm since 1900, higher than it's been in 800,000 years, almost all due to humans. This has resulted in increased acidification of the oceans., at the very least.

    Several animals have become extinct, entirely due to humans-some, like the passenger pigeon, just because they were fun and easy to kill.

    We have had the capability of destroying the world-or, at least, degrading it to the point where it will no longer support life, for nearly 70 years now.

    "The Earht's scale is far larger than anything we can do to it." Who's "religious" now? :lfao:


    Let's not call it "the environment."

    Let's call it "a glass of water."

    If we have a glass of water, and I drink half of it today, and you know I'm going to drink just as much tomorrow, where does the water come from for the day after tomorrow? Has that particular resource, the glass of water, been diminished?

    Likewise, if we have a glass of water, and I put a chunk of plutonium oxide in it, is it degraded?

    Would you drink it? Could you drink it?

    I think it's "religious" thinking, or, more appropriately, magical thinking, to consider vital resources as anything but finite in nature-since the fact is that they are, no matter what you think.


    There's nothing cynical or religious in what I've posted-and it has nothing to do with human potential.

    Potentially, we could have controlled fusion in 15-50 years.

    Potentially, aliens could come "to serve man."

    Potential doesn't pay the bills, or change the course we've set.
     
  3. K-man

    K-man Grandmaster

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    It would be interesting to see your solution for the huge amounts of plastic and other debris in the Pacific and Atlantic Oceans for a start. Then with the deforestation occurring in South America and Indonesia I'm not convinced anyone can restore any balance to the natural environment. Then I suppose you are developing some sort of scrubber to reduce the atmospheric gases that are out of balance. Hmm! I think we are very close to stuffing the planet. :hmm:
     
  4. Makalakumu

    Makalakumu Gonzo Karate Apocalypse

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    LOL! The cave paintings at the famous sites in France showed that they knew calculus too! Look, we all say silly things when we buy into this irrational anti-human ideology. Look what I wrote in 2004!

     
  5. Makalakumu

    Makalakumu Gonzo Karate Apocalypse

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    It's all small potatoes. Chernobyl bounced back.

    Chernobyl nuclear disaster site becomes a wildlife area, including over a hundred wolves (with updates) | The Wildlife News

    Humans might not make it if we can't get our act together, but the Earth will be fine.

    That said, the essential question is whether or not humans have the potential to navigate the problems of the future. I think we're fed a steady diet of propaganda telling us the answer is no. We've been fed this message for generations and if you stop to research origin of this message, it's coming right out of western religious institutions. Perhaps it is "religious thinking" to think that humans CAN successfully navigate the future...but doesn't make a good excuse to have another beer.

    :drinky::drink2tha:drinkbeer:hb:
     
  6. elder999

    elder999 El Oso de Dios!

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    I said capacity for reason.
    '
    Interestingly: Stone Age art was animation



    Even if you don't accept that theory (I don't, entirely, myself.) the fact that "cave-men" basically invented "art" 40,000 years ago only serves to reinforce what I posted: Humankind's capacity for reason has not increased one iota.

    Not exactly.

    Hell, from your own article:



    That wolves-who lack humans capacity to reason, and so are incapable of detecting radiation in any way-have moved into an area abandoned by humans and taken up by prey animals should not be surprising-they are, after all, opportunistic predators.

    More to the point, once again you've stepped into an area that you clearly know nothing about, and I do: it's no violation of OPSEC or the National Secrets Act for me to say here that I've been to Pripyat and to the Chernobyl site(though it likely is for me to say why, and what for, so don't ask :lfao: ) You can take a tour yourself, should you go to Ukraine....

    That particular disaster, though, nearly 30 years later, is an ongoing one.
    Ukraine Marks Chernobyl Anniversary, 2013


    Mr. Schrader asks, Fine?Compared to what?

    More to the point, that's not really they question here-go back to the title, and let go of the "Earth being 'fine,'" for nowhere have I said anything about the ultimate fate of the earth, whether or not it will be "fine."

    I said our resources are finite, and that we degrade the environment-stay on point, please. :lfao:

    No, it isn't. See above.

    Quite frankly, I'd be fine without an internet, electricity or fossil fuels-I could totally go "subsistence farmer/hunter-gatherer" tomorrow, and be pretty content reading by tallow-wicked lamps.

    Perhaps you should start another thread-as I've said, it's a fact that our current resources are finite, and we're degrading the environment. Nothing you've offered contradicts that at all, or has been particularly relevant. Sorry.
    ]
     
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  7. Makalakumu

    Makalakumu Gonzo Karate Apocalypse

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    Energy resources, as far as humans are concerned, are not finite. The energy escaping from the Earth and coming in from space will never run out in any human scaled time. As far as the environment is concerned, my point is twofold. What humans do to the environment is natural and fluid. If humans go extinct, natural cycles will change. If humans change their collective behavior, they will change.

    My last point has been to illustrate the existence of an ideology that cast something that is completely natural in a negative way. You can see this ideology in the word choices people use to describe things and in the hyperbole they use heat their opinions. Once you SEE the ideology, you can begin the process of understanding where it appears in your thoughts.
     
  8. elder999

    elder999 El Oso de Dios!

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    Who's "splitting hairs" now? :lfao:


    I think, as you pointed out, I was in fact talking about "our" resources. We are already harnessing solar power-which is finite, and it's not for you or anyone else to say that human beings won't be here to watch from afar when Sol fizzles out in about 5 billion years or so-though I'll grant that it's not likely, or as likely that we will have evolved into something else. As far as other energy coming from space, harness it, and you'll have wealth beyond all dreams of avarice. :lfao:

    With China putting coal plants that lack any of the pollution controls mandated here in the U.S., and often built by U.S. companies, to the tune of one going on line weekly at one point, your point isn't "twofold."

    It's not a point at all. :rolleyes:

    I mean, John, seriously? I'm coming to Hawaii in a while; can I stay with you? I'll poop in your kitchen sink, and in your linen closet, and on your living room sofa while I'm there....after all, what's more natural than poop? I'm sure you won't mind, or feel that your living space has been...erm......degraded in any way...:lfao:

    Pancake bunny :rolleyes:
     
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  9. Makalakumu

    Makalakumu Gonzo Karate Apocalypse

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    If you were going to poop on my couch, I'd ask you to stop. My guess is that my appeal to your better nature would prevail. That principle, writ large, could save humanity. In all seriousness, let me know when you come. I've love to meet you.
     
  10. elder999

    elder999 El Oso de Dios!

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    Seems to me everyone was "asked to stop" 18 years ago, and all over the world, we're still "pooping on our own goddam couch . :lfao:

    And lighting it on fire to stay warm.....
     
  11. pgsmith

    pgsmith Master of Arts

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    This thread reminds me of one of my Mom's sayings ... "You can argue all you want with a brick wall, but you'll never convince it to become a window for you." Some people are much more concerned with being "right" than they are with making sense. Huh, just realized that this could be referring to most of our leadership unfortunately! :)
     
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  12. Makalakumu

    Makalakumu Gonzo Karate Apocalypse

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  13. elder999

    elder999 El Oso de Dios!

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    While it some - Earth-Firster types of the "religious" ilk you accuse me of being - might insist that there is something unnatural to be seen in that picture, there is nothing unnatural in that picture.

    While nothing appears to be degraded, it's all degraded.

    Whether it's Antarctica:
    View attachment $antarctic ice degradation.jpg
    North America:
    View attachment $American north degradation.jpg
    South America:
    View attachment $Atlantic-rainforest-deforestation-jc0231.jpg
    Australia:
    View attachment $australian-degradation-causes-poverty-i0.jpg
    or Asia:
    View attachment $Asian environmental degradation.jpg
    we're all just pooping on the couch, John.

    Of course, that's natural. :rolleyes: :lfao:
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2014
  14. Makalakumu

    Makalakumu Gonzo Karate Apocalypse

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  15. elder999

    elder999 El Oso de Dios!

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    I consider it every day.

    I'm doing something about it, I'd like to think.

    That's not what this thread is about, though-nor should it be.
     
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  16. Makalakumu

    Makalakumu Gonzo Karate Apocalypse

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    If Seasteading becomes a reality, 70% of the surface of the Earth becomes more viable to use. There are huge energy resources in the oceans and huge potential for food production. There is also a real possibility to clean up the mess of previous generations. So, is a "degraded" environment and diminished amount of resources inevitable? Not in the near future, IMHO if this is the direction that humanity moves.
     
  17. elder999

    elder999 El Oso de Dios!

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    Oh, goody! A bigger couch to poop on! :lfao:

    Seriously, John? Given the evidence of.....I dunno, what did I say before?

    Oh, yeah: all of recorded human history. There is nothing whatsoever that demonstrated that, given your "if" (a pretty big one, and not at all the theme of this thread), we wouldn't just start crapping up the oceans even more than we already have:


    The acidity of the surface water in your region of the Pacific has increased 30% in the last 50 years or so, due to atmospheric CO2.


    Some scientists say that it will increase by 170% or more in the near future.

    Due to a variety of factors, most especially overfishing, edible fish populations world wide have declined by 55% over the last 50 years.

    In the North Atlantic, edible fish populations have declined by 66%., and, in some cases, by 90%.

    Some reports project world fish stocks to be almost completely depleted by 2048-that's well within your lifetime, and possibly even within mine.



    So, what you're proposing is more "Searaping," then, with some pooping on the bigger couch. :rolleyes: :lfao:

    I mean, see above in re: "huge potential for food production." NOT.

    And what, exactly-since you seem to want to go there- controls "the direction humanity moves?"

    I mean, what sort of organism degrades its environment to such an extent that it will become unusable-sees that that is the direction in which it is heading, and does nothing about it?

    I mean, given our history-all of recorded human history-we've pretty much always just used stuff up, and thrown the waste where it was convenient, but we're more advanced now, right? We know better, right? We can see that it's not in our interests to act that way, right? We can see that it's not in our interests to do so, right? You and I are agreed on that: human behavior needs to change, so, what kind of organism behaves this way?

    Certainly not one acting from intelligence, or even its "full capacity to reason."

    What is it, then, that makes humankind continue to act against our own interests?

    Well, whose interests is it in for us to do so? To plead about the "loss of quality of life" that less energy use would result in-to claim that green sources are not reliable enough or big enough to support the lifestyles to which we've become accustomed? To insist that pollution controls are not necessary, or, worse yet (to them) increase costs? To encourage consumption to the point of extinction-or, in the case of water, to the point of no longer being readily available?

    Corporations. Corporations drive this ideology-it is in their interests to maintain the status-quo, and maintain or increase profits.

    As an erudite and not so wise friend aptly said:

    :lfao:

    I have to add, I'm struck by the passion with which you've embraced this corporate ideology, though it is ironic, given that you've chosen to live on islands that get 85% of their electrical power from imported petroleum,

    That import 85-90% of their food.

    That rely on surface water and rain cachement for the majority of their potable water.

    Really, John-could you have chosen a place that is any less sustainable for the size of its population at any given time? :lfao:

    I mean, under the right circumstances of "national disaster," or worldwide emergency-never mind the "inevitable degradation and diminishing of resources," yours will be almost immediately diminished and degraded. Unless you have a "bug-out" boat, or some other plan to get yourselves off island, you and your family will likely die, or, given Hawaii's history, be eaten. :lfao:123
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2014
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