Only sanctioned MA tournaments in Ontario Canada

[MasterWright]

As of the fall of 2007 a law was passed in Ontario Canada. This makes it illegal to host a martial arts tournament without first being sanctioned by a state/provincial body (Ontario Taekwondo Association).

It is almost impossible for a smaller club to host one, now with the red tape involved. Hiring referees from said Association, 6 month in advance applications, motels and food for reffs in a separate area, the number of rings, security guards and a large fee with the application .

It's a big win for the larger schools as nobody could host an inexpensive event. It would ilegal to invite two or three clubs together or you would be charged like a criminal.

Last I heard, it was a free country, a democracy. Big brother wanting money from you in order to do business smells like socialism to me. I wish that I was born 100 miles south because I am embarassed to be a Canadian right now.

 

[terryl965]

Why was this law made, sorry I never heard of something like this ever.

 

[mango.man]

Is it only a crime if they charge $$$? For instance would it be a crime for 2 or 3 schools to get together each month, rotating locations between the 3 schools just for cross-training purposes?

What about larger events where, there are no judges etc. For example, our coach her in California puts on events he calls "Rumbles". He does 3 or 4 a year in Southern & Central California. He charges $20 or $30 and usually gets about 100 or so people to show up. From there the format is that everyone gears up and picks their own opponents and fights. It does not matter, boys against girls, the old against the young, the black belt against the yellow belt. If the 2 people agree to fight, they get 2 minutes on the floor against each other.

Usually there are 4 or 5 fights going on at once and when 1 group is done, they are rushed off the floor and the next group goes out and fights. That means less than a minute of downtime between groups fights.

Generally speaking, any given player can get 15-20 fights in and a ton of valuable experience during the couple of hours that the rumbles last.

Drop me a PM if you want more information as this sounds like it might be a good work around for you.

 

[MasterWright]

Why was this law made, sorry I never heard of something like this ever.

Hi Terry, The government has a lot of power, here. UFC is not allowed either in our State/Province. This law was passed down by our ministry of health and promotion. All Karate,Ju Jitsu or any martial arts federations need to go this way.

It would save money paid out for our health insurance, which is taken from our unusually high taxes.

Aside from that I think that some decisions (here) are not made by the right people. Most lawyers don't know as much about Taekwondo and these sports as perhaps the Coaches and Trainers.

 

[MasterWright]

Is it only a crime if they charge $$$? For instance would it be a crime for 2 or 3 schools to get together each month, rotating locations between the 3 schools just for cross-training purposes?


Generally speaking, any given player can get 15-20 fights in and a ton of valuable experience during the couple of hours that the rumbles last.

Hey Mango Man, A School owner friend of mine was going to host one Saturday, just between 2 other clubs. His competition ( it's a small town)called the Government people and the Provincial Association. They informed him that he would be charged by the police for doing this.

So, no valuable experience for the students unless it's Sanctioned. I have found that some of the students that come from families that don't have a lot can be your best competitors. I know this, but they don't care. I can't put forth the image of a law breaker to my students.

Thanks, and I will get back to you about this and try to figure something out.

 

[MasterWright]

Is it only a crime if they charge $$$? For instance would it be a crime for 2 or 3 schools to get together each month, rotating locations between the 3 schools just for cross-training purposes?

Sorry mango.man, The same dude that called did ask me to bring my students to his school for a Saturday sparring class. Which I think is legal to do, no money, trophies just training. I guess it's better than nothing, but we won't be going to his school after what he did.

 

[Gordon Nore]

As of the fall of 2007 a law was passed in Ontario Canada. This makes it illegal to host a martial arts tournament without first being sanctioned by a state/provincial body (Ontario Taekwondo Association).
...
Last I heard, it was a free country, a democracy. Big brother wanting money from you in order to do business smells like socialism to me. I wish that I was born 100 miles south because I am embarassed to be a Canadian right now.

Master Wright,

I've not heard of this until now -- mind you, I don't keep up with tourneys.

Do you have a link to a gov't site on this? Does this legislation target martial arts tournaments specifically, or is this for a range of amateur athletics?

People pay governments all the time for permits. What are the costs? I don't know that that is uniquely Socialist. Nor am I aware that it is undemocratic. In order to be totally democratic, we would be putting every legislative decison to a public ballot. If the whole population of Ontario got together to vote on the fate of MA school operators, well... the tyranny of the majority.

The government has a lot of power, here. UFC is not allowed either in our State/Province. This law was passed down by our ministry of health and promotion. All Karate, Ju Jitsu or any martial arts federations need to go this way.

It would save money paid out for our health insurance, which is taken from our unusually high taxes.

In fairness, at one time, the UFC was banned all over the USA. Back in the nineties some friends and I had tickets to see UFC in Buffalo, but the new governor George Pataki banned it for being too violent.

Re: The italicized portion. Is that stated in the legislation? Public or private, health care is expensive. In any insurance plan, a policy holder pays for others.

 

[Carol]

Last I heard, it was a free country, a democracy. Big brother wanting money from you in order to do business smells like socialism to me. I wish that I was born 100 miles south because I am embarassed to be a Canadian right now.

This surprises me. I'm not Canadian but I am originally from Buffalo and still have ties to WNY/southern Ontario. Do you have a link to a news release or government website with the news? I'm not familiar with this either and google came up empty.

Thanks!

 

[Windsinger]

You have just made me even happier that I live in BC.

 

[MasterWright]

Master Wright,

I've not heard of this until now -- mind you, I don't keep up with tourneys.

Do you have a link to a gov't site on this? Does this legislation target martial arts tournaments specifically, or is this for a range of amateur athletics?

I guess I jumped the gun on the Socialist part, but here is the procedure that we need to follow for Taekwondo. All of the other Sports have a procedure as well that is overseen by the Ministry of Health and promotion. The person in charge is Barbara Lyon Stewart. As far as the Taekwondo Association goes , you need to satisfy them to be allowed to hold it before being granted permission.

OTA Event Sanction Tournament Hosting Policy
http://www.taekwondo.on.ca/download/forms_policies.htm

 

[Dusty]

Master Wright, i find that interesting. i am a member of the ota as well. i do itf tkd, hapkido and a few other things. i belong to the ota mainly for the connection to the ministry of tourism and recreation as it covers me in any liabilities.
i do a lot of open style (point karate) tournaments in Ontario and i know that they do not have to belong to any organizations to sanction them. The only thing they have to be aware of is offering a 'monetary' prize as it then becomes a prize fight whcih is under a different set of rules.
any idea how the 'open' tournaments get around this?

Dusty, kj

 

[MasterWright]

Master Wright, i find that interesting. i am a member of the ota as well. i do itf tkd, hapkido and a few other things. i belong to the ota mainly for the connection to the ministry of tourism and recreation as it covers me in any liabilities.
i do a lot of open style (point karate) tournaments in Ontario and i know that they do not have to belong to any organizations to sanction them. The only thing they have to be aware of is offering a 'monetary' prize as it then becomes a prize fight whcih is under a different set of rules.
any idea how the 'open' tournaments get around this?

Dusty, kj

http://www.martialartstournaments.ca/viewtourns.php

Hi Dusty, this page has a lot of the tournaments that you might go to like Army Rizzo's, click details and it will show that they have been sanctioned.

 

[Carol]

From what I see on the website, the OTA is basically a lobbying group that is, at least temporarily, getting a bit of $$ from the provincial Ministry of Health. I don't see anything that indicates that they are a government organization.

There is no mention at all that only sanctioned tourneys are permitted only penalty of law in the province. There is also no mention of any law that was passed, in 2007 or otherwise.

Do you have a link to the specific provincial law that you mention that was passed in 2007 that makes it illegal to hold a tournament that isn't sanctioned?

 

[MasterWright]

From what I see on the website, the OTA is basically a lobbying group that is, at least temporarily, getting a bit of $$ from the provincial Ministry of Health. I don't see anything that indicates that they are a government organization.

There is no mention at all that only sanctioned tourneys are permitted only penalty of law in the province. There is also no mention of any law that was passed, in 2007 or otherwise.

Do you have a link to the specific provincial law that you mention that was passed in 2007 that makes it illegal to hold a tournament that isn't sanctioned?

Eveyone has a tough time trying to find it.

I know that the last one allowed was Sept 2007. I called the Provincial government info today and waited hours for them to get back to me. I asked to see if I could hold an open Game as well to get around it. Perhaps they did not understand what I was asking. I was directed to call the Provincial organization Secretary(OTA) and that was it.

Maybe someone can find this law and let us know because to me right now, seeing is believing.

 

[Carol]

Eveyone has a tough time trying to find it.

I know that the last one allowed was Sept 2007. I called the Provincial government info today and waited hours for them to get back to me. I asked to see if I could hold an open Game as well to get around it. Perhaps they did not understand what I was asking. I was directed to call the Provincial organization Secretary(OTA) and that was it.

Maybe someone can find this law and let us know because to me right now, seeing is believing.

Sounds like a bit of a mess.

Keep us posted if you learn anything, please! I really hope that this doesn't encumber your school or your students too much. :asian:

 

[Gordon Nore]

I guess I jumped the gun on the Socialist part, but here is the procedure that we need to follow for Taekwondo. All of the other Sports have a procedure as well that is overseen by the Ministry of Health and promotion. The person in charge is Barbara Lyon Stewart. As far as the Taekwondo Association goes , you need to satisfy them to be allowed to hold it before being granted permission.

No harm. I jumped the gun a bit myself, before I read the OTA site. According the their page, OTA is "sponsored in part" by MHP, which suggests it a non-governmental agency that receives some support from the Province. The OTA, like any martial art org, probably derives the bulk of its funds from members. However, I'll bet dollars to donuts it has a board that is responsible for making these decisions. These decisions might well arise out of changes to Provincial policy, and that would be worth finding out.

Perusing the MHP site, I found dozens of such agencies under the category of "Sport". There are many, many more.

http://www.mhp.gov.on.ca/english/sportandrec/sport/pso.asp

Note the copyright on the OTA site:

Copyright © 2008 Ontario Taekwondo Association. All rights reserved.

Whereas, any Ontario government site reads:

This site is maintained by the Government of Ontario

Privacy || Important Notices
© Queen's Printer for Ontario, 2008

 

[Carol]

However, I'll bet dollars to donuts it has a board that is responsible for making these decisions. These decisions might well arise out of changes to Provincial policy, and that would be worth finding out.

Excellent point!!!

 

[Tez3]

Found this, an interesting way around legislation!

http://mmasplatter.com/?p=423

 

[Carol]

Oooh...that page had the criminal code reference that likely affects Master Wright and his students.

Source:

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/showdoc/cs/C-46/bo-ga:l_II-gb:s_83//en

Prize Fights

Engaging in prize fight
83.




(1) Every one who

(a) engages as a principal in a prize fight,

(b) advises, encourages or promotes a prize fight, or

(c) is present at a prize fight as an aid, second, surgeon, umpire, backer or reporter,

is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.





Definition of “prize fight”


(2) In this section, "prize fight" means an encounter or fight with fists or hands between two persons who have met for that purpose by previous arrangement made by or for them, but a boxing contest between amateur sportsmen, where the contestants wear boxing gloves of not less than one hundred and forty grams each in mass, or any boxing contest held with the permission or under the authority of an athletic board or commission or similar body established by or under the authority of the legislature of a province for the control of sport within the province, shall be deemed not to be a prize fight. R.S., 1985, c. C-46, s. 83; R.S., 1985, c. 27 (1st Supp.), s. 186.



With the language of the law, it seems possible that martial arts tournaments could fall under the the legal definition of a "prize fight", however, the verbage isn't clear.

The time reference states that this is a 1985 law...however googling around online I found many references that state MMA fights meet the definition of "prize fight".

Master Wright referenced a 2007 date, it seems possible that in the midst of discussing MMA legislation, there was legal precedence to establish other martial arts tourneys as prize fights.


I'm afraid Master Wright's original supposition may be correct. Holding a martial arts tournament may indeed require an official sanction. At this point, if the decision were mine, I don't think I'd choose to host a tournament without the advice of an attorney.

 

[tshadowchaser]

To me this sounds like the end of freedom for martial artists in your country. If every thing has to be agreed on by that committee for tournaments and the refs, etc. have to be paid then no small or non TKD people will be hosting tournaments soon.
This kills off the small local tournaments that have made the martial arts so popular .

It was a good political move by the TKD but sucks for the rest of the martial arts people.