Ogoshi vs. Koshi Garuma

Discussion in 'Jujutsu / Judo' started by gpseymour, Jun 6, 2019.

  1. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I was looking at a list of Kodokan Judo throws, remembering those I'd learned and relating others to what I know from elsewhere in my training. But I can't spot the difference between two of them in the excellent, but simplified animations. Ogoshi is a basic hip throw - what's different about Koshi Garuma?
     
  2. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    With Ogoshi, you wrap your arm around the opponent's waist. With Koshi Guruma, you wrap their head/neck.

    That's mostly it, although there are some minor differences which result from the different grips. With Koshi Guruma you can compromise the opponent's structure more due to the head control and you can insert and turn your own hips further without the grip getting in your way.

    Generally Koshi Guruma is easier when you are taller than your opponent and Ogoshi is easier when you are shorter.
     
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  3. frank raud

    frank raud Master Black Belt

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    For hip placement, nothing. Hand placement is different. Ogoshi has your hands with one hand pulling on sleeve, one hand placed on uke's back to keep them in position. Koshi Garuma is a neck throw, one hand is wrapped around neck, one hand on sleeve.
     
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  4. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Okay, that explains why I didn't see a difference - my primary classification wouldn't separate those (one would be an application of the other). Thanks, Tony!
     
  5. frank raud

    frank raud Master Black Belt

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    Is your primary classification based on hip position? With you in front of the uke, one hand on sleeve, one on back is ogoshi (or variants like obi goshi), one hand on sleeve, one around neck is Koshi Garuma, one hand on sleeve, one under same arm is seoi nage, one hand on sleeve, one hand over is makikomi. There are other throws that can be done from same hip position (morote seoi nage, yama arashi). Lots of variation from one position.
     
  6. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    You can't assume people to understand the Japanese terms (such as Ogoshi, Koshi Garuma). What's wrong just to use "hip throw" and "head lock hip throw"? Even if it may only take me 10 seconds to Goggle it. But for 1000 MT members, that will be 10,000 seconds.

    It makes sense to use under hook and use your palm to push the back of your opponent's head when you execute hip throw. The head lock hip throw does not make sense.

    The hip throw require a "lift' motion. The head lock is a "sideway" motion (not even a downward motion). It makes no sense that you try to lift your opponent with your hip, at the same time that you press his head sideway with your head lock.

    If you do head lock correctly, your opponent's spine will be bent side way. This side way bending spine won't work will with hip throw. If you don't bend your opponent's spine side way, your head lock won't be effective.

    The horizontal circular head lock motion won't work will with the vertical up and down hip throw motion.

    In the following clip, since A's head lock is a vertical up and down motion, B's free left hand can push A's head lock right arm forward and let B's head to slide off A's head lock. But if A's head lock is a horizontal side way motion, it will be much harder for B to escape out of A's head lock.



    Here is a correct head lock. It's difficult to apply a hip throw from that position.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2019
  7. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    I think it would be easy to apply a hip throw from that position.
     
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  8. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    But hip throw is over the back throw (vertical) and not around the body throw. When your opponent's spine is bending side way, his balance is weak side way and not weak forward.

    If you use your left leg to horse back kick, that will be a beautiful "leg blocking" throw (which is no longer a hip throw).
     
  9. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    NGA uses much broader classification. For instance, we have one formal sweeping technique (Leg Sweep, basically osoto gari). We teach all the others as variations on that theme, sometimes combined with other throws. So, in our minds, about 5 different Judo sweeping techniques are clearly just Leg Sweep. Some are from the front, but they're still Leg Sweep.

    Somehow, a basic hip throw didn't make it into the formal curriculum. There's a throw very early on (Mugger's Throw) that - the way I teach it - is basically a variant of a drop seoi nage. There's a shoulder throw (pretty much seoi nage) late in the curriculum, as well as a spinning hip throw (which hasn't much resemblance to any Judo throw, and IMO is a drill for principles), but no standard hip throw. So I (and other instructors, even in the mainline of the art) have added one. Some day, I might actually make it one of the formal techniques, but I'd either have to ditch the symmetry (5 sets of 10 techniques) or replace one of the others. So for now it's just an extra thing I teach, like ground escapes and a single-leg.
     
  10. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Hip throw doesn't have to be a lifting (vertical) throw. The one that is taught late in the NGA curriculum uses a horizontal circle to power the throw. It's a bad example (not a terribly practical throw, because it lacks a strong connection, IMO), but it shows how far from vertical a hip throw can get. I can easily do a hip throw over a range of angles, as long as I can get the hip inside and a bit low. I think where the difficulty comes from is when you're trying to get a tight headlock. The headlock isn't the point, though, the throw is, so you only need enough of a headlock to connect the throw properly.
     
  11. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    A half-step underneath with the leg, and there's enough hip connection to send them over the hip. The direction of the throw won't be vertical - probably closer to 45 degrees.
     
  12. frank raud

    frank raud Master Black Belt

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    Two things. It is quite proper in the JUDO forum to use judo terminology. If Gerry knew the difference between them, he wouldn't have made the thread.

    If you place your rear hand on the back of opponent's head, you don't have any control of his hips, making it easy for him to shift his hips and counter. It may work differently in Chinese wrestling, but this is the judo forum.

    Thank you for informing us of the ONE true way to do a headlock. But Koshi Garuma is not a head lock. It is a neck throw.
     
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  13. wab25

    wab25 Brown Belt

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    I don't know... seems to work okay for some people...
     
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  14. wab25

    wab25 Brown Belt

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    Frank is right... this is a Judo forum... where are my manners?

    Please accept my apology...
     
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  15. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Yep.
     
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  16. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Jinx!
     
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  17. frank raud

    frank raud Master Black Belt

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    Judo terminology will usually tell you a lot about how a throw is done and where the emphasis should be. Koshi (hip) garuma (wheel). Hiza (knee) garuma (wheel). The emphasis in Koshi Garuma is wheeling the uke over your hip, not your back. In Hiza garuma, the fulcrum point is the knee.
     
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  18. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    In my opinion, it is the same thing.
     
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  19. JP3

    JP3 Master Black Belt

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    Gerry, the "principle" difference is in the name. particularly the goshi vs. garuma parts of the names. Remember garuma means "wheel" generally understood to mean the body part about which you are rotating. koshigaruma was told to me loosely means head wheel, and what Wang's saying is how it was explained to me instead of just being an alternate grip hip throw. With the head trapped as part of the throwing grip, you really don't need the lifting action of the hip throw, though I find myself almost always doing it due to muscle memory on the entry.

    Thing is, that difference is... sort of hard to feel when you're actually in flow with someone, it ends up not being much of a practical difference at all. It's a tall guy grip ona short uy, and a way to get a hip throw on a shorter guy is how it seems to usually end up.
     
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  20. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Thanks - that fits with how I'd do the two variations. I often wonder how much of my grappling is still influenced by my relatively brief time in Judo. I thought in the past it wasn't much, but the more I look into Judo, the more I see things that explain the difference between some of my NGA and the NGA of others I trained with.
     

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