OC Spray

[MJS]

In some other threads, there was mention of OC spray, its use, effectiveness, etc. I thought I'd start a thread here for discussion, as the other thread is talking about Tasers, not OC. What are your thoughts on it? Is it worth carrying? Is it effective?

Mike

 

[Cruentus]

As I mentioned before, OC is not a magic solution, but it does have its place. It does tend to reduce the breathing and vision capacity of the assailent. With proper tactics, this could aid in an arrest or an escape for a civie.

The mistake, however, would be to think that OC would take out the "fight" of the attacker. In fact, the opposite could be true, and the attacker could want to fight "more" after being sprayed.

OC reduces ability and possibly opportunity if one can get to a safe distance; but it does nothing in regards to intent.

 

[tellner]

I've just posted a rant in this thread. It is reproduced here for your edification

Wow. Another chance for the fifty cent version of my OC rant...

I suppose OC is better than nothing. It beats screaming for help, but let's take a good hard look at it.

When pepper spray first came out it was like a Star Trek phaser with a stun setting, at least according to the manufacturers. It blinded. It shut down "all but life support breathing". It would stop a charging bear in its tracks. It was a perfect protection against robbers and rapists. The FBI Academy's tests proved that it was 100% effective. In other words, it was just like every other new self defense product.

Then reality started to set in.

First, the agent in charge of the experimental trials at the Academy was convicted of taking an $800,000 bribe to slant the experiment the way the manufacturer wanted. After a couple high-profile cases of cops using it exactly as directed and getting stabbed to death the FTC got involved. MSI Mace was forced to retract all claims that it would stop violent attackers.

Then there was a bit of independent research. Once more, we all have to thank the peerless Phil Messina of Modern Warrior. He and his (mostly NYPD police officer) students have done quiet literally thousands of trials. Special cop-only pepper spray. Students who aren't enraged or on drugs. Trained dogs. Untrained dogs. Journalists. Regular people used as control subjects. The results were always absolutely consistent. It doesn't stop a goal-oriented person from carrying out his plan. Period.

The Berkeley PD department study was in line with this. Officers found that it made the situation worse as often as it helped, and more than half the time the officer got hosed down as well. Now pretty much every police or security guard training course for OC includes spraying the students so they understand you can fight through it.

ASLET, the American Society of Law Enforcement Trainers, has covered it over the years. Their recommendation was that it worked on "non-compliant non-violent suspects". In other words, Bubba doesn't want to get into the car, but Bubba isn't about to massage your head with a tire iron to underline the point. Hose Bubba down with OC, then cuff and stuff. It also works great for torturing passive protestors who have chained themselves to old growth redwoods.

I've been sprayed with special umpty hundred thousand SHU not-for-sale-to-mere-civilians cop-only OC by accident. Right in the face. I wasn't ready for it. You know what? I got motivated and goal oriented within about a tenth of a second. I decided that I had to extricate myself from the hold I was in, walk across a wrestling gym the size of a small airplane hanger (literally), go out the door, find the drinking fountain and start washing it out of my eyes. If I'd been doing crime that would have been about enough time to rob, rape and kill someone (in no particular order) and be halfway through my second beer. I made a serious unfriend in a local PD who came in to extoll the virtues of OC and his particular course. My standing offer of "I get a wooden knife or lipstick. You get the OC. $5 a cut. $10 a stab. No more than $1000" went begging for reasons at which I can only speculate :wink1:

Another thing to consider is the physiological effect. What does OC do, basically? It causes an allergic response. What is the body's immediate reaction? It dumps adrenaline. Congratulations. If he's still moving, he's really ticked off, and he's stronger, angrier and more impervious to pain. In fact, tests before and after spraying with OC show a marked increase in grip strength.

In short, there's a place for it. That place is not, no way, no how, not even a little for defense against violent criminals who lead you to fear that you are in danger of sexual assault, death, or serious injury. Maybe if you shove the canister down his throat and empty it it will stop him. Otherwise, no.

 

[CuongNhuka]

If your going to carry a weapon, you might as well wear a bullet proof vest and carry a sawed shot gun.

 

[Cruentus]

If your going to carry a weapon, you might as well wear a bullet proof vest and carry a sawed shot gun.

Yes. You are correct. There is no happy medium between completely unarmed and body armor with a "sawed shot gun." None at all...

 

[tellner]

Deadly force is deadly force. Less than deadly force is less than deadly force. A shotgun is deadly force. If you don't have the correct tax stamp a sawed off shotgun is deadly force in the commission of a felony (violation of the National Firearms Act of 1934 in the US). Not good. Very bad.

When a gun is appropriate nothing else will do. Fortunately, there are very few circumstances where a gun is appropriate.

OC has its place, but that place is a lot smaller than the more hopeful would like it to be.

 

[pankration]

We've had several high profile cases here where police used pepperspray and tasers. Guess what? On pumped up, violent criminals on drugs it barely slowed them down. The only people it has been really effective on is protesters, most of whom were students, mothers and ex-hippies hardly the type of person you would need to worry about. I carry the stuff when I hike up in the mountains for bears and I'm beginning to worry it won't stop them either!

 

[Cruentus]

I think that we need to use a little bit of logic here rather then being on different sides of an extreme.

Not every person that would commit an assault or violent crime is the infamous "pumped up violent criminal on drugs" of which tazers and OC would have no effect. These people do exist, but make up a small percentage of attackers.

For most attackers, less-lethal force tools will hinder their ability to do harm. But of course, none of these are the catch all. One has to expect that once the fight breaks off, that one has a fight on his/her hands, regardless of what tool is used in assistance.

 

[Carol]

But the thread doesn't just say that OC spray is ineffective on pumped-up violent attackers. Something IMO that is more common is what Tellner pointed out - OC spray can have a paradoxical reaction.

OC spray definitely has its benefits. The sprays that are infused with dye can help identify a perpetrator. It is often effective defense against attacks by dogs and other common animals. It is lightweight and easy to carry. Many LEO's advise CCW holders to carry pepper spray along with their firearm in order to have a less-lethal defense option.

On the other hand, OC spray is a one-shot deal...literally. IIRC, the manufacturer recommendation for the keychain sized canisters is that the contents are enough for one attack by one attacker.

As martial artists, we generally understand that a weapon is something requires training, a bit of common sense, and an understanding of how it is regulated under the law. Not everyone gets that, unfortunately.

 

[Cruentus]

As martial artists, we generally understand that a weapon is something requires training, a bit of common sense, and an understanding of how it is regulated under the law. Not everyone gets that, unfortunately.

Very true.

Worth noting, we recommend that one carries at least a 2oz. container rather then the key chain, and other smaller versions. You can get multiple shots with 2oz. or more.

Also worth noting, proper tactics reduce the liklehood of OC working against it's user. Particularly, I think they are better for one who would be trying to make an escape, vs. one trying to make an arrest. When making an arrest, one sprays, then has to go into the area and to the person that was sprayed to make an arrest. This is why officers unavoidably almost always recieve some of the effects themselves, albeit that they usually are much less then those receiving a more direct shot.

Conversly, say a woman who would try to make an escape can send a cloud of mist towards the attacker, to run in the opposite direction. She can leave multiple mist clouds behind her and towards the attacker with the proper sized canister, and make an escape with much less of a chance of receiving effects from the OC that would hinder that ability to escape or fight if escape failed.

This also brings up the point of who should carry what in terms of mist, spray, or foam. I wouldn't recommend that LE use mist, for example, because they have to go into the area that they just misted to make an arrest.

So, these items do have their place, and can be used well with proper tactics. Unfortunatily, as you said, many won't seek the proper training to learn how to employ these tactics properly.

 

[Grenadier]

OC spray can be a useful tool, but as the others have stated, should never be thought of as the ultimate end.

Different folks will react differently to irritant sprays. Some who are rather sensitive may very well be unable to continue attacking / pursuing, but rest assured, there are some folks in this world who are going to have but slight, if any, reaction to the irritant spray.

Individuals who are intoxicated, or under the influence of certain drugs, might not even feel it.

Does this mean I disapprove of its use? No. If it works, then as Carol mentioned, it has its benefits. However, it's always good to have alternate methods that can tear through defenses (decent lockback knives, etc).

 

[Drac]

But the thread doesn't just say that OC spray is ineffective on pumped-up violent attackers. Something IMO that is more common is what Tellner pointed out - OC spray can have a paradoxical reaction.

Its a crap shoot at best..I've seen drunks go down in a storm of sneezing, coughing and cursing..I've seen those "hopped" up on something illegal laugh and keep coming..

The sprays that are infused with dye can help identify a perpetrator. It is often effective defense against attacks by dogs and other common animals. It is lightweight and easy to carry.

Just avoid the "foam" stuff..They tried to rob a bus driver by dosing her withe the foam, she managed to scoop it up in her hand and throe it at her attacker who fled

On the other hand, OC spray is a one-shot deal...literally. IIRC, the manufacturer recommendation for the keychain sized canisters is that the contents are enough for one attack by one attacker.

The keychain canisters are a JOKE..Too many people put it on their keyring that holds their car keys..If they need it its in the door of the vehicle they are attempting to open..If you're gonna carry OC spray carry it in your non gun side pocket or your hand so its ALWAYS at the ready..

Many LEO's advise CCW holders to carry pepper spray along with their firearm in order to have a less-lethal defense option

Makes sense to me

 

[KenpoTex]

My $0.02 regarding OC...

I think that intermediate/less-lethal tools like OC, Tasers, etc. have a place in LE and security, however, for the private citizen engaged in self-defense, I don't feel that they have much value.

Why? First of all, they are control devices, not weapons. When they are properly employed by LE and security, their role is either to cause a resisting (but not necessarily threatening) individual to comply with the demands/instructions of the officer or to aid the officer(s) in their attempts to subdue the individual. They are not for dealing with a situation where the threat of serious physical harm or death existst. I know we've probably all seen videos of officers tasering or spraying someone who had a knife or whatever. However, in most situations of this nature, I feel that it is a mistake on the part of the officers to use an intermediate/less-lethal device to deal with a deadly threat.

In the context of self-defense, the same principle applies. If I am being faced with the threat of death or serious injury (which we have to assume is the case if we've been targeted as a victim), I'm not going to waste my time by employing a method that very possibly may not work. I have a hard time envisioning a real self-defense scenario where you would be justified in using an intermediate device but not justified in using another, more effective method.

As far as the effectiveness...For my current job, I had to go through an OC certification which included taking a 3-second burst directly to the face from about 8 feet. Yeah, after 30 seconds or so it started to suck really bad (really bad!). However, in the initial period of time after being sprayed, I would have had no problem continuing a fight since I could still see and breath well enough to function. As I said, it gets to you, but you don't have to be "hopped up" on some sort of controlled-substance to fight through it. After my experience with OC, and hearing numerous stories about people fighting through it, I just don't trust it.

I personally don't carry it for two reasons. One is that if someone has threatened me to the point where I have to draw something, I'm going to go with my pistol or a knife. Two is that in the aftermath of a deadly-force threat, I wouldn't want to have do deal with the question: "why did you shoot him/stab him/bounce his head off the pavement when you could have just sprayed him?" (gotta love prosecutors who don't have a clue... )

I'm not saying not to carry it. However, if you do, I would advise that you think of it as a distractionary device to facilitate striking or accessing a more effective weapon. Don't count on it as a method that's going to end the confrontation.

 

[bigkicks]

Every weapon has its time in place in battle, OC is no different. If you looking for a non-lethal approch to a confrentation.

Physiological effects would include:

Respiratory: Bunring of throat, SOB, sweeling or inflammation on bronchi tubes.
Nasal inhaulation: burning, swelling, and sneezing
Occular: Burning, redness, stinging pain, and will causes reflexing shutting of eyelids.

All sounds good so far, right?? Well i have used this OC as a bouncer and it doesn't do ***** for people that have been amped up on meth or coke. Or for that matter a adrenelin surged person comming after you. If used incorrectly, ( not enough distatnce between you and an attacker) or used in a confined space, it will effect you and everyone in that confined space.

The other problem that i have is that everyone and their grandmother have them but, how many people do you see walking to their cars at night with them off safty and finger on the button. I haven't seen one. even if they were to have OC's armed like that if the person is not consistanly walking around in what the gun community calls conidition yellow and is aware of their surroundings an attacker can easily get the advantage.

In short, my wife carries glock and when that isn't an option she carries a knife and is trainned how to use them both. Leave the non-lethal crap to cops, and if your going to arm yourself do it with something that you are comfortable with and have had training on.

" better to judged by twelve, than carried by six"!!

 

[Cruentus]

Interesting... one post and already a suspension? :uhoh:

Anyway...

I think that tazers are invaluable to LE, but not very useful to the private citizen (minus security officers); however, I don't believe that the citizen should be prohibited from owning/carrying one (see tazer thread on this).

OC does not seem as useful to LE now that tazers are widely used. I would think that OC would be good for the private citizen in aiding an escape. Logic dictates that although people can fight through OC, it may be harder to actually chase and catch someone with OC affecting the eyes and breathing.

I know anecdotally, it has aided in escape for citizens before.

What I would like to see is some hard data or clinical trials regarding private citizens; mainly, are citizens better able to escape a threat when deploying OC. We don't have anything like that to date that I know of.

 

[still learning]

Hello, My friend has the bear can ones....and it works on bears charging at you! ......Aloha

You don't have to outrun the bear....just the other guys.......Aloha

 

[Carol]

Interesting... one post and already a suspension? :uhoh:

An account can be suspended for a reason other than the content of a post.

 

[Carol]

You don't have to outrun the bear....just the other guys.......Aloha

:roflmao:

 

[Infinite]

What of the psycological effect? Do you think everyone you come up against has been sprayed and will want to be sprayed?

Anyone with any security trianing knows one axiom: IF the person wants the person WILL find a way to take it.

So saying the OC won't stop a determined detacker is a rather missleading statement.

If YOU are the goal that is correct (murder / Rape / Kidnapping) however what about theft? Burglery?

In those cases the criminal has to decided if the confrontation is worth it and OC may make him decide to find someone else.

LEO's always tell me, 'Look like a victim be a victim'. You know walk alert make sure you know whats going on.

I think if you had OC and it was clear you had OC you may deter a whole series of crimes they may have just been targgeted for.

 

[Drac]

LEO's always tell me, 'Look like a victim be a victim'. You know walk alert make sure you know whats going on.

Yep..100% True..