Not taken seriously

[jim777]

But see, it's all connected to the problem of why TKD isn't taken seriously by (some)people outside the art. There are several layers to the problem; it's not a simple, one-factor story. You have the problem of the Olympification of the sport, leading to it being diluted over time for combat application; the emphasis on rapid promotion and the after-school daycare aspect that have been noted, the political/historical/cosmological/symbolic complexity that makes things so obscure and counterintuitive from the US perspective especially, and ties into the seemingly excessive emphasis on a spiritual/moral/character-building essence of the art, as vs. combat effectiveness... these things all feed in...
'

They do indeed. I really think the whole McDojo side of TKD training plays a very large part though, maybe the largest part. For example, last week at a family event I met up with a young cousin of mine (he's about 11) who has been taking TKD for about 4 years now (twice as long as I have for clarification). I asked him what rank he was at, and he proudly told me "6th Bo black belt". I'm immediately thinking this seems like a classic example of made up belts for the purpose of gathering test fees, and I congratulate him on his rank and dedication "to have come so far". I asked him what hyungs he knew, as I wanted to know if he was doing the same ITF hyungs as I'm doing, and he wasn't familiar with the word. So I asked "Patterns maybe, or kata, do those sound familiar?" And he said, "Oh yeah, we do those, but I don't know any of their names". He said his sensei (yes, his TKD instructor tells the students to call him sensei) didn't require them to know the names of the patterns they did. I never bothered telling him what I was up to because it would have been like speaking latin to him. I just wished him luck and mentioned my concerns to his father.

Whenever I hear that anyone is taking TKD it obviously interests me as a TKD student myself. That said, it is too often disappointing to hear them describe their school and curriculum and feel from my point of view they aren't getting out of TKD what they could. I don't know that TKD will ever have much respect from the 'new to martial arts' MMA folks, but it would certainly help with the rest of the martial arts world if there were a lot fewer flavors of TKD, IMHO. Simply saying "I study TKD" doesn't really say enough to someone familiar with TKD. You need to add ITF, or WTF, or any of the many other flavors to give your fellow TKDers an idea of what you do and what branch of the art you're on. And that's to your fellow TKDers. From the outside of TKD, I think too many people just see TKD as the style of the "$400 dollars for the test 6th bo black belts".

again, just my $.02, and this has been a great thread

 

[Laurentkd]

They do indeed. I really think the whole McDojo side of TKD training plays a very large part though, maybe the largest part. For example, last week at a family event I met up with a young cousin of mine (he's about 11) who has been taking TKD for about 4 years now (twice as long as I have for clarification). I asked him what rank he was at, and he proudly told me "6th Bo black belt". I'm immediately thinking this seems like a classic example of made up belts for the purpose of gathering test fees, and I congratulate him on his rank and dedication "to have come so far". I asked him what hyungs he knew, as I wanted to know if he was doing the same ITF hyungs as I'm doing, and he wasn't familiar with the word. So I asked "Patterns maybe, or kata, do those sound familiar?" And he said, Oh yeah, we do those, but I don't know any of their names". He said his sensei (yes, his TKD instructor tells the students to call him sensei) didn't require them ...

again, just my $.02, and this has been a great thread

I am not trying to bash anyone here, I am just asking because I am curious. It seems that I have found that ATA schools often use a mix of Japanese terms such as sensei. Does anyone here know why?

 

[azmyth]

I am not trying to bash anyone here, I am just asking because I am curious. It seems that I have found that ATA schools often use a mix of Japanese terms such as sensei. Does anyone here know why?

Bow to your Sensei (sorry I couldn't resist)


do you think the Cobra Kai was karate or TKD?

 

[dancingalone]

I believe "kai" is Japanese, roughly meaning 'school'. Karate Kid movie factoid: the movie pays homage to the system of Okinawan Goju-ryu. Mr. Miyagi's last name is an obvious reference of Chojun Miyagi, the founder of Goju-ryu. In the third installment of the series, the kata Daniel learns is Seiunchin.

 

[Laurentkd]

I believe "kai" is Japanese, roughly meaning 'school'. Karate Kid movie factoid: the movie pays homage to the system of Okinawan Goju-ryu. Mr. Miyagi's last name is an obvious reference of Chojun Miyagi, the founder of Goju-ryu. In the third installment of the series, the kata Daniel learns is Seiunchin.

But that only means Daniel was learning an Okinawan art.... I guess we can only asume that the Cobra Kai were studying Karate.
But from now on I am going to pretend they were doing TKD. I always thought Johnny was the coolest!!

 

[dancingalone]

But from now on I am going to pretend they were doing TKD. I always thought Johnny was the coolest!!

Lots of TKD in that movie. The Polynesian guy who lost to Johnny in the semi-finals was probably a Korean stylist with all his jump spinning crescent kicks. Hate to say it, but the Kobra Kai were indeed karate people. Whoever did the choreography of the fight scenes knew at least a little about the martial arts, since the way Johnny deal with his flashy semi-final opponent was with classic hard style karate tactics (block and reverse punch).

Now that I think about it, I remember the stuntman who stood in for Pat Morita in his action scenes was Fumio Demura, a well-respected shito-ryu man.

A couple of years ago, an authentic Kobra Kai uniform used in the movie (the bleach blond bully who Daniel knocks out in his first(?) bout) turned up on Ebay. I would have loved to have bought it, but the opening bid was like $2K!

 

[granfire]

I am not trying to bash anyone here, I am just asking because I am curious. It seems that I have found that ATA schools often use a mix of Japanese terms such as sensei. Does anyone here know why?

maybe because Japanese has more mainstream references....anybody knows Sensei...but Sabumnim.....


(I learned a lot about Korea from the old names of the forms, my previous knowledge was derived from watching MASH....)

 

[Steel Tiger]

But see, it's all connected to the problem of why TKD isn't taken seriously by (some)people outside the art. There are several layers to the problem; it's not a simple, one-factor story. You have the problem of the Olympification of the sport, leading to it being diluted over time for combat application; the emphasis on rapid promotion and the after-school daycare aspect that have been noted, the political/historical/cosmological/symbolic complexity that makes things so obscure and counterintuitive from the US perspective especially, and ties into the seemingly excessive emphasis on a spiritual/moral/character-building essence of the art, as vs. combat effectiveness... these things all feed in...
'

There also seems to be a variation in the way that TKD is denegrated. There is the obvious macho posturing that it is "no good on the street" that comes from a simple lack of understanding of, well, anything. But there is also a more knowledgeable position which can see that TKD has a lot to offer but it is being made subservient to so much other stuff and is under such, seemingly, strict control that the content is being lost. Unfortunately TKD seems to catch flak from as many directions as it has complicated internal features.

But there are some things that seem to me to just be foot-shooting coming from TKD. I have been interestingly reading the threads about sine wave movement in TKD and I have to say the more recent developments in this area are not a good look for the art. The theory seems quite sound (it doesn't gel all that well with the type of movement I am used to but different arts you know) and yet recent trends have me thinking no real thought is going into why students are bobbing up and down like corks in water.

Having seen patterns performed with and without this exaggerated movement I have to say, from an outsider's perspective, the exaggeration of sine wave movement really does TKD no favours. It just seems to me to be yet another area in which some TKD practitioners are opening themselves up to criticism and, unfortunately, probable ridicule.

 

[Xue Sheng]

There also seems to be a variation in the way that TKD is denegrated. There is the obvious macho posturing that it is "no good on the street" that comes from a simple lack of understanding of, well, anything. But there is also a more knowledgeable position which can see that TKD has a lot to offer but it is being made subservient to so much other stuff and is under such, seemingly, strict control that the content is being lost. Unfortunately TKD seems to catch flak from as many directions as it has complicated internal features.

But there are some things that seem to me to just be foot-shooting coming from TKD. I have been interestingly reading the threads about sine wave movement in TKD and I have to say the more recent developments in this area are not a good look for the art. The theory seems quite sound (it doesn't gel all that well with the type of movement I am used to but different arts you know) and yet recent trends have me thinking no real thought is going into why students are bobbing up and down like corks in water.

Having seen patterns performed with and without this exaggerated movement I have to say, from an outsider's perspective, the exaggeration of sine wave movement really does TKD no favours. It just seems to me to be yet another area in which some TKD practitioners are opening themselves up to criticism and, unfortunately, probable ridicule.

Sine wav move in TKD I better go read that.

I may have forgotten it since TKD was years ago for me but I do not ever remember a Sine wav movement, but then this was pre-Olympic too.

Since I left TKD, many years ago, I have gone back from time to time and looked a local TKD schools and most have been a disappointment from what I was use to. Of the 2 dozen or so I have checked out I have found only 1 that impressed me and that was also a Hapkido school as well.

Sadly I do feel that some of TKD's problems are self imposed these days if for no other reason than the mass production of teachers both true and false that seems to have occurred.

But TKD is not alone in this, my main art now is Taiji and if you are looking to not get taken seriously as a martial artist this is the art for you. And much of this is also self imposed due to the mass production of alleged teachers and real teachers lightening things up to gain more alleged masters.

 

[Windsinger]

BTW, I am WTF Taekwondo, so I definitely know what you mean...As Taekwondoin, be it ITF or WTF, we catch a lot of flak. Just keep on doing what you do and having a good time at it.

I hear that. I'm only recently involved with an ITF TKD school (which I think is a good school, but that's me), and I've already caught flak on another forum for it. I don't believe there is one Ultimate Martial Art(tm), but that each style can work for people who want to study it, work hard at it, and do it for the right reasons. TKD is where my interest lies. There are other styles I'd like to try, but TKD is going to be my base.

I have a friend who is trained in an insanely wide variety of martial arts. He comes from a family who believes that more martial arts you know, the better a person you are (which I can believe, if he is any kind of example of this philosophy). When I first trained in TKD (a badly failed attempt, but that's another thread), I talked to him about it. His opinion - TKD has some of the most powerful and amazing kicks he'd every tried. He said it has it's failings, but so does any martial art. I trust his opinion on this.

It just drives me nuts when people say a "sport" martial art (ie TKD, judo, etc) isn't a real martial art. I even saw one person who has divided martial arts into martial arts and martial sports. What a load! If you train in a style specifically for competitions, sure, I could see it not being as useful for defending yourself. But in that case, it's not a failing of the style. Rather it's because of where your focus is.

Then again, what do I know? This is all just my opinion. YMMV.

Thanks for listening to me drone on and on.

 

[StuartA]

But I am just trying to make sense of why TKD gets the worst of it.

Ignorance.. as to what is TKD the art, TKD the SD system and TKD the sport!

Martial arts is martial arts.

'Fraid not.. some just play at it, others put a little more emphasis on the martial!

Stuart