Not taken seriously
- Thread starter azmyth
- Start date
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
That is about it.
If you like it and are happy with it who cares what anybody else thinks
dancingalone
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Absolutely. For background info, I've moved around a lot in the last eight years for career reasons, and so I've have to check out various dojos and dojangs for training opportunities. I don't really discriminate by style as I think excellent tuition can be found anywhere, in a big studio or in a backyard, in a TKD or TSD school or in a boxing gym. Time after time however I've been drawn to either tae kwon do or the other many flavors of karate.
In my observation, the karate schools (Okinawan or Japanese) believe in the dojo kun and they recite it before and sometimes after every practice, but it doesn't permeate the atmosphere as it does in TKD. It's just part of the practice ritual and then you get on to the sweating and pain dealing.
Meanwhile, at many dojangs I've visited, they have a student oath (the dojo kun), but they also do lots of activities I consider superfluous. Examples are the phrase of the week... something you are supposed to meditate upon at home and then you say it as you enter the training floor, like 'Courtesy, Sir!' or 'Harmony, Sir!'. Another example I chuckled at was when the school owner told me she would make me a better person and make me a better performer in life through TKD. In response, I politely thanked her and crossed her off my list. I'm already pretty successful at my career and I have a loving family that can fill in what others gaps I am missing. I don't need TKD for that. Whatever happened to just teaching students how to defend themselves in an altercation? I guess that went away with skyrocketing insurance premiums.
The chain schools that cater to children are the worst in terms of promoting this 'character' stuff. You probably know which ones I am referring to. They generally have gaudy uniforms with lots of patches and stripes.
Absolutely. For background info, I've moved around a lot in the last eight years for career reasons, and so I've have to check out various dojos and dojangs for training opportunities. I don't really discriminate by style as I think excellent tuition can be found anywhere, in a big studio or in a backyard, in a TKD or TSD school or in a boxing gym. Time after time however I've been drawn to either tae kwon do or the other many flavors of karate.
In my observation, the karate schools (Okinawan or Japanese) believe in the dojo kun and they recite it before and sometimes after every practice, but it doesn't permeate the atmosphere as it does in TKD. It's just part of the practice ritual and then you get on to the sweating and pain dealing.
That's one of the things I hope that TKDin the hoped-for change to more practical and realistic attitudes I envision for itwill get back to. Sweating and pain dealing sounds, from all I've heard, like the Kwan era in a nutshell.
:disgust: Sickening!!
Don't you just hate it when you get that prissy, holier-than-thou attitude? The arrogance underlying it is... hard to describe adequately.
Between that, and the fact that a lot of people use TKD as a mainstay after-school activity for their kids and would be horrified at the thought of them actually learning effective self-defense (partly because, I'm guessing, no one wants to think of their kids being in that kind of danger, so a certain amount of denial is involved), yes, the whole tendency in much TKD instruction seems to be anything but SD. We're a martial art, folksbut it's OK, you parents and insurers, we don't have anything to do with actual violence!
We have a few of those in some of the malls around here.... I really consider myself lucky that I didn't wind up at one of those places when I first got started, though I don't think I'd have stayed around very long if I had....
I so agree. Why even worry about what others think?
If TKD wants to be portrayed as a serious fighting art, many schools really need to change their presentation. My kali instructor rented space from a TKD instructor for awhile. The front windows of the school were covered with the images of three anime kids in dobuks kicking, punching, and using a shinai. I have no idea about the quality of TKD taught there, but but "serious fighting art" was not the first thing that sprang to mind.
Lamont
Lamont
Well, some schools cater to people looking to train hard, some cater to people wanting to brag about there coloured belt and awsome deadliness, and some cater to parents wanting to brag about there kids belt.
Anime kids in the window is going after soccer moms more then anything, wanting there little 6 year old to look adorable in his white suit and black belt, yelling and looking "fierce" with his glow in the dark nunchuks.
And much to the dislike of several "old school" practitioners, that is the image a lot of TKD schools are pushing forward to represent the style.
Anime kids in the window is going after soccer moms more then anything, wanting there little 6 year old to look adorable in his white suit and black belt, yelling and looking "fierce" with his glow in the dark nunchuks.
And much to the dislike of several "old school" practitioners, that is the image a lot of TKD schools are pushing forward to represent the style.
Same thing happened to Karate, in fact a lot of those old school TKD schools probably used "Korean Karate" to promote themselves back in the day. I also imagine Amateur wrestlers are not found of having WWE and like organizations use the name "wrestling" either. Or the full contact fighters that now see countless "kickboxing" classes that are really just a aerobics variation.
It sucks, but nothing can really be done about it. Promoting something under a name everyone recognizes will turn out better results then if they came up with a new name. It's also a funny line to draw, where does TKD (or any other art) end and a new name become required?
But like karate, TKD now has a bunch of different branches, which are not always related in anything more then the loosest meaning of the word. "Tae Kwon Do", like "Karate" has become a generic umbrella term.
It sucks, but nothing can really be done about it. Promoting something under a name everyone recognizes will turn out better results then if they came up with a new name. It's also a funny line to draw, where does TKD (or any other art) end and a new name become required?
But like karate, TKD now has a bunch of different branches, which are not always related in anything more then the loosest meaning of the word. "Tae Kwon Do", like "Karate" has become a generic umbrella term.
Empty Hands
Senior Master
Look, at the end of the day, some of those guys have a point. Not all arts are created equal. Many arts emphasize low percentage techniques, questionable techniques (like one-hit kills), and stuff that is just plainly made up (like chi balls or no-touch knockouts). I would even freely admit that my own art suffers from some of these flaws.
On the application end, many arts have also been associated with poor training methods, with some validity. The points have already been well made about the commercial structure of American TKD. Similarly, any school that discourages sparring, or uses heavily padded light contact point sparring, and calls it self-defense is heavily flawed. You just are not ready to say that you know how to defend yourself if you have never been hit hard, or no one has ever resisted the performance of your techniques.
Could the people you are talking about be a little more level headed and not be jerks about their criticisms? Sure. Does being a jerk make them wrong? No, it does not, and some of their criticisms are valid.
If you want to benefit the most in the exchange, incorporate their criticisms and make what you do better and more effective. After all, we are talking about defending your life, you might as well do it as effectively as possible.
Oh, don't worry, the word gets filtered out. If you try to describe said forum in a way that won't trigger the filter, you'll have that filtered too and get a stern note from a moderator.
I'm sure it's a very mature and effective way to do things.
On the application end, many arts have also been associated with poor training methods, with some validity. The points have already been well made about the commercial structure of American TKD. Similarly, any school that discourages sparring, or uses heavily padded light contact point sparring, and calls it self-defense is heavily flawed. You just are not ready to say that you know how to defend yourself if you have never been hit hard, or no one has ever resisted the performance of your techniques.
Could the people you are talking about be a little more level headed and not be jerks about their criticisms? Sure. Does being a jerk make them wrong? No, it does not, and some of their criticisms are valid.
If you want to benefit the most in the exchange, incorporate their criticisms and make what you do better and more effective. After all, we are talking about defending your life, you might as well do it as effectively as possible.
Oh, don't worry, the word gets filtered out. If you try to describe said forum in a way that won't trigger the filter, you'll have that filtered too and get a stern note from a moderator.
I'm sure it's a very mature and effective way to do things.
The Last Legionary
All warfare is based on deception.<br><b>nemo malu
Lifetime Supporting Member
MTS Alumni
Gotta love filters. Me, I prefer Brita, but thats a personal thing. Now if they are filtering out another websites URL here, there is probably a very good reason. Porn, Spam, Anti Social Behaviour, Hate Speech, Lack of Personal Hygiene, Cooties, etc. Of course, only an absolute **** head would thumb their nose in public at board staff, purposefully work to avoid an in place filter, or ignore clearly posted rules about such things. Are you such an ****? Can you pull your head from this deep dank hole within which it is stuck, and if so, will you then wash your hair or simply comb it through?
As to the site you love and lament, I know it well. One usually must bathe after visiting using strong disinfectant. I feel my IQ goes up 50 points once I navigate away from it. Too much Bull by product.
As to TKD, most arts are just jealous that they know how to rake in the dough, and have nice big training centers, while the rest of em eek out an existence living in strip malls and time shared YMCA's. If your average "real" art would market half as effectively as the local TKD school, they might change things. Problem is, flash is what sells the most. As for TKD, a trophey won't save you on the street, but a good teacher can show you how to transition what works in sports to something effective on the street.
IV
As to the site you love and lament, I know it well. One usually must bathe after visiting using strong disinfectant. I feel my IQ goes up 50 points once I navigate away from it. Too much Bull by product.
As to TKD, most arts are just jealous that they know how to rake in the dough, and have nice big training centers, while the rest of em eek out an existence living in strip malls and time shared YMCA's. If your average "real" art would market half as effectively as the local TKD school, they might change things. Problem is, flash is what sells the most. As for TKD, a trophey won't save you on the street, but a good teacher can show you how to transition what works in sports to something effective on the street.
IV
Empty Hands
Senior Master
Probably.
Probably not.
I don't "love" it, but some of the members therein have a point, as I have expounded on.
The problem is, you fight how you train. If you train with your hands at your sides and to only perform high, flashy kicks, then that is what you will do under pressure. If you do that, you will get slaughtered in real life.
Sure, not all TKD schools train you that way, but we are talking about perceptions here, and a great many schools do train that way.
Empty Hands
Senior Master
To my anonymous commenter: you're kind of what I am talking about.
Say, folks - howzabout we get back to the topic?
TKD exhibits an alternative way of thinking compared to the other arts. It is because of that you are going to get some chuckles.
Sean
Modern Tae Kwon Do has developed two serious problems in my opinion:
1. A student-based approach. By this I mean the curriculum is designed to make students happy, exist as cheap day-care for kids, and provide a family oriented place to kill a couple of hours. If you ask people why they attend a certain school, most likely they will tell you they like the Instructor and the fellow students. And that's great. Why go someplace you hate?
However, back in the old days, the Instructor didn't teach his class to make you happy. He taught what he taught regardless of how you felt about it. He had goals in mind-your happiness not being one of them.
This is one reason I do not advocate full-time teachers. To me, some of the worst Instructors are full time. In their endless quest to maintain enrollment and make happy students, they have compromised the integrity more than anyone.
2. The other problem is the increasing superficiality of Tae Kwon Do-the removal of its holistic nature. In the old days, you could focus on different aspects depending on where your skills lay. Don't like sparring? There's always forms, one-step, self defense etc.
These days, in its quest for Olympic glory and world credibility, Tae Kwon Do has excluded all those who don't share its dreams of producing Olympic champions. Everything it does seems to be guided by the desire to make better athletes and champions, leaving the other 99% behind. It's great to have that opportunity; but Tae Kwon Do should no more be defined by its Olympic sparring than you are defined by your job. Yeah, it's important, but it's not all you are. Tae Kwon Do must reassert its multi-faceted nature. If you don't or can't do Olympic sparring, there are still plenty of options available.
1. A student-based approach. By this I mean the curriculum is designed to make students happy, exist as cheap day-care for kids, and provide a family oriented place to kill a couple of hours. If you ask people why they attend a certain school, most likely they will tell you they like the Instructor and the fellow students. And that's great. Why go someplace you hate?
However, back in the old days, the Instructor didn't teach his class to make you happy. He taught what he taught regardless of how you felt about it. He had goals in mind-your happiness not being one of them.
This is one reason I do not advocate full-time teachers. To me, some of the worst Instructors are full time. In their endless quest to maintain enrollment and make happy students, they have compromised the integrity more than anyone.
2. The other problem is the increasing superficiality of Tae Kwon Do-the removal of its holistic nature. In the old days, you could focus on different aspects depending on where your skills lay. Don't like sparring? There's always forms, one-step, self defense etc.
These days, in its quest for Olympic glory and world credibility, Tae Kwon Do has excluded all those who don't share its dreams of producing Olympic champions. Everything it does seems to be guided by the desire to make better athletes and champions, leaving the other 99% behind. It's great to have that opportunity; but Tae Kwon Do should no more be defined by its Olympic sparring than you are defined by your job. Yeah, it's important, but it's not all you are. Tae Kwon Do must reassert its multi-faceted nature. If you don't or can't do Olympic sparring, there are still plenty of options available.
Cirdan
Senior Master
In my observation, the karate schools (Okinawan or Japanese) believe in the dojo kun and they recite it before and sometimes after every practice, but it doesn't permeate the atmosphere as it does in TKD. It's just part of the practice ritual and then you get on to the sweating and pain dealing.
Meanwhile, at many dojangs I've visited, they have a student oath (the dojo kun), but they also do lots of activities I consider superfluous. Examples are the phrase of the week... something you are supposed to meditate upon at home and then you say it as you enter the training floor, like 'Courtesy, Sir!' or 'Harmony, Sir!'
I find the whole "We shall build a better world trough Taekwondo" attitude a bit disturbing. From what I`ve seen it looks almost like kids in class are taught loyalty to the art like soldiers are expected to be loyal to their country. What happened to just let people build skill and focus and confidence trough old fashioned hard workouts?
This strange tendency in TKD is something I suspect can be traced to the horrific conditions under which the art emerged—the whole experience of the Kwan founders trying to get started under the savagely hostile conditions of the Japanese occupation, and the almost immediate followup of the Korean War and the emergence of the Rhee autocracy and the Park dictatorship, with a very heavy military element pervading the whole of Korean society at the time (and it was a long time). The association of TKD with Gen. Choi, the Tiger commandos and Marine divisions; of these individuals and institutions with the ultimate success of the ROK army (viewed widely then in a desperate time, as the bedrock institution of the South); and therefore, by a kind of weird syllogism, of TKD with the preservation and salvation of the country from a Communist conquest, gave rise to a view of TKD which would almost have to be different from what we would think of as a 'normal' view of what a MA is and what it's for.
TKD is associated with the 'soul' of Korea in a way that I don't think any other MA is; conversely, as I've suggested in another thread, it differs from other TMAs in that it's owned, in essence, by a national state, rather than being a locally developed, homegrown product the way the CMAs are and, to a lesser extent, Okinawan and Japanese karate are (via the ryu system). The two aspects are connected, I believe.
I can actually see this for Korea; what I find bizarre is how completely so many American schools and institutions have taken over the kind of reverential attitude, so clearly based (to my eyes, anyway!) in the facts of South Korea's horrific wartime and postwar experience and running so counter to what I think of as the rambunctious practicality of American cultural attitudes... :idunno:
dancingalone
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I was browsing another TKD forum and I came across this gem. (If I am breaking any rules, please let me know and I'll edit my post.)
"I think that people start martial arts for many reasons and most of those that do start do not see the what I consider the most important pqart of what we do. That is self control, respect and the life qualities that are taught in [our organization]. There is great value in having a system that sets standards and has some control over the quality of its instruction. To many, that seems like a Mcdojo but to me that seems like an organization."
I respect his right to have his views about training TKD... But, it's not my view. Organizations like the Boy Scouts exist to promote moral values. Let's use them instead of diluting a combat system like TKD.
"I think that people start martial arts for many reasons and most of those that do start do not see the what I consider the most important pqart of what we do. That is self control, respect and the life qualities that are taught in [our organization]. There is great value in having a system that sets standards and has some control over the quality of its instruction. To many, that seems like a Mcdojo but to me that seems like an organization."
I respect his right to have his views about training TKD... But, it's not my view. Organizations like the Boy Scouts exist to promote moral values. Let's use them instead of diluting a combat system like TKD.
