Not taken seriously

[granfire]

Ah, yes, Art bashing, favorite past time of the testosterone controlled world of MA boards.

here is my take:

The criticism usually comes from the young males who consider themselves 10 foot tall and bullet proof. Instant gratification may play a roll, machismo guaranteed.

The 'moral overhead' is frowned upon anyhow, screw traditions. BJJ is a fashion statement (right now our umbrella organization has expanded the SD ground escapes into BJJ to be taught at the centers)

But to each their own. You can't demand respect, you have to earn it.
I don't need to defend my choice of art I practice. It gives me what I need and I adore my instructors. I am - unlike the 20ish male - fragile and well aware of my shortcomings and cannot afford to be busted up in what is, though a large part, only a fraction of my life.

The West lacks the connection between the physical aspect of the art and the mental segment. meditation is suspicious to most, where extroverted emotions are more common. We have tenets we recite before each class, and I try to fill them with meaning in my everyday life, but they are nothing outrageous, just common sense and courtesy.

So, while grappling is fun and a welcome change in pace, we promote it as another tool, to be able to get back to what we train for primarily: stand up and fight. But it does not give me the other things that make the art for me: the discipline and concentration to perform the seemingly meaningless.

In short, I gave up a long time ago to give a rat's behind about what other people think. I march to a different drummer in most aspects of my life, I enjoy childrens/youth literature more then most 'adult fiction', watch anime and cartoons and play MMPORPG with gusto where I am a minority...

I do TKD because it is fun, I like the people and it's good for my mind and body. And if you don't like it, that's tough luck for you, and only you.

(and that was a generic you, as this is the TKD forum! )

Now, of course with anything that popular, you will find a lot of shadow behind the light. It brings out the best in people, but the worst in some as well. Profiteering and money grabbing, false masters and such. Not to mention politics and egos.


Oh, and in my area, even tho we are the largest MA school in town with the greatest staying power, hardly anybody does taekwondo, most go to 'Karadee' :2xbird:

 

[FearlessFreep]

Actually, taken from some of what exile was saying about the "soul" of Korea, it makes a little bit more sense.

In some sense it would seem that the Korea viewpoint of Taekwondo is much more a way of life than a way of fighting. It can *out* of a fight for survival but it came to be much more about fighting than fighting, if you will. "Indomitable Spirit", "perseverance", etc.. the will to fight and overcome, etc... Starting with yourself, and out to the world you face. Taekwondo started as a means of survival through which those characteristics were applied, but it later became a tool through which those characteristics were learned and exercised and demonstrated.

And from that point of view, Taekwondo would be more important as a way of life than a way of fighting, if you will. And in a sense, the mental, emotional, and physical self-discipline, control, and strength to learn the forms and the techniques is more important than the actual fighting usage of those techniques. And making that aspect of Taekwondo accessible to all, kids, women, men, anyone, is of more overall importance than making it applicable in combat for warriors.

So in that respect, to the people who created the art (not the individuals but the culture) and the people who are the caretakers of the art in it's home, Taekwondo does, intentionally, grow away from it's roots as a fighting system

And since we in the West don't see Taewondo as our national identity, or 'soul', we don't have the same goals or perspectives


I'm not saying I agree with this direction and mentality, but now it starts to make a little more sense

 

[YoungMan]

I would agree with that assessment. If you want to understand Tae Kwon Do, you must understand the culture and nation that gave rise to it. The mistake is to think that because TKD doesn't advocate beating someone down, it is less effective. To the contrary. Although it does have an arsenal of punishing techniques that are quite capable of causing pain, it is also a balanced philosophical art that tries to uplift. If all you see is Olympic sparring, you really get a distorted picture of what Tae Kwon Do encompasses.
Unfortunately, Westerners do tend to get turned off by the philosophy, culture, bowing, and etiquette. But that's part of TKD. It really is much more than just fighting. Fighters tend to have a short lifespan/career anyway. Martial arts is about your whole lfe, not just what you do in a ring.

 

[azmyth]

Ah, yes, Art bashing, favorite past time of the testosterone controlled world of MA boards.

here is my take:

The criticism usually comes from the young males who consider themselves 10 foot tall and bullet proof. Instant gratification may play a roll, machismo guaranteed.

The 'moral overhead' is frowned upon anyhow, screw traditions. BJJ is a fashion statement (right now our umbrella organization has expanded the SD ground escapes into BJJ to be taught at the centers)

But to each their own. You can't demand respect, you have to earn it.
I don't need to defend my choice of art I practice. It gives me what I need and I adore my instructors. I am - unlike the 20ish male - fragile and well aware of my shortcomings and cannot afford to be busted up in what is, though a large part, only a fraction of my life.

The West lacks the connection between the physical aspect of the art and the mental segment. meditation is suspicious to most, where extroverted emotions are more common. We have tenets we recite before each class, and I try to fill them with meaning in my everyday life, but they are nothing outrageous, just common sense and courtesy.

So, while grappling is fun and a welcome change in pace, we promote it as another tool, to be able to get back to what we train for primarily: stand up and fight. But it does not give me the other things that make the art for me: the discipline and concentration to perform the seemingly meaningless.

In short, I gave up a long time ago to give a rat's behind about what other people think. I march to a different drummer in most aspects of my life, I enjoy childrens/youth literature more then most 'adult fiction', watch anime and cartoons and play MMPORPG with gusto where I am a minority...

I do TKD because it is fun, I like the people and it's good for my mind and body. And if you don't like it, that's tough luck for you, and only you.

(and that was a generic you, as this is the TKD forum! )

Now, of course with anything that popular, you will find a lot of shadow behind the light. It brings out the best in people, but the worst in some as well. Profiteering and money grabbing, false masters and such. Not to mention politics and egos.


Oh, and in my area, even tho we are the largest MA school in town with the greatest staying power, hardly anybody does taekwondo, most go to 'Karadee' :2xbird:

I'm marching right along with ya!

As soon as I get home and get this new massive gaming video card hooked up.. I'm gonna go over my form a few times, and then jump into EQ2, WoW or Vanguard.. and pwn some noobs in my kind of combat.. the kind where i can't get hurt

 

[Blindside]

With regard to the original post, about TKD not getting the respect it "deserves" on those other boards. Those boards do generally demand some sort of "ring proof" that the style is effective. Even if the assumption is that ring = real life is false, why doesn't TKD have their respect?

You have Olympic TKD that is full contact ring sport, with millions of participants, and is being pushed farther every year. The simple question is why haven't you seen successful translations of one ring sport to another. You certainly see elements of Muay Thai, wrestling, boxing, BJJ etc in mainstream kickboxing and MMA events. Why hasn't TKD made the jump? Certainly no one on that "other" board said this guy couldn't fight:

Given the size of Olympic TKD why haven't you seen a swamping of standup striking events by crossover competitors?

Lamont

 

[FearlessFreep]

I'll admit that after I've been back in Taekwondo training for awhile I want to take a short at a local amateur MMA competition

 

[exile]

In some sense it would seem that the Korea viewpoint of Taekwondo is much more a way of life than a way of fighting. It came *out* of a fight for survival but it came to be much more about fighting than fighting, if you will. "Indomitable Spirit", "perseverance", etc.. the will to fight and overcome, etc... Starting with yourself, and out to the world you face. Taekwondo started as a means of survival through which those characteristics were applied, but it later became a tool through which those characteristics were learned and exercised and demonstrated...

So in that respect, to the people who created the art (not the individuals but the culture) and the people who are the caretakers of the art in it's home, Taekwondo does, intentionally, grow away from it's roots as a fighting system

And since we in the West don't see Taewondo as our national identity, or 'soul', we don't have the same goals or perspectives


I'm not saying I agree with this direction and mentality, but now it starts to make a little more sense

I'm thinking aloud a bit here... but I believe you can see this very unique and emotionally extremely intense relationship between Koreans and TKD in the treatment of the hyungs. The names of Okinawan and Japanese kata typically involve naturalistic imagery— Empi, 'flying swallow', Gankaku, 'Crane on a rock', Hangetsu, 'half-moon'—or simple statements of performance properties of the kata, e.g., Nijushiho 'twenty-four steps', Gojushiho 'fifty-four steps', Jitte 'ten hands' and so on. Compare these names with what you find in the ITF tuls, for example—Dan-Gun, the legendary semi-divine founder of Korea, Do-San, patriotic hero of the prewar resistance to the Japanese occupation, Won-Hyo, named for the monk who introduced Buddhism into Korea, Jun-Gun, a hero named after a Korean patriot who was executed in 1910 for the assassination of Hiro-Bumi Ito, the first Japanese Governor-General of Korea under the Occupation... the list goes on, Mythological and legendary heros, patriotic martyrs and generals. The WTF forms are associated with more abstract notions, but kind of groan under the weight of the Buddhist philosophy and cosmology that have been written into them. It's clear that the hyungs in TKD bear a huge burden of political and cultural symbolism, and there's a lot very intense feeling invested in them; look at the incredible hostility to Juche, with its associations (for many South Koreans apparently) of what they took to be General Choi's betrayal of his own nation by his contacts with the North. Look for example at the discussion here, containing this representative excerpt:

Juche means “self reliance”. In 1956 when the unity of the communist world broke up, the North Koreans began to stress a philosophy of self-reliance & independence. The philosophy revolves around the concept that man is master of his own destiny & that he should remain independent of all outside influences. This implies that there should be no spiritual or psychological dependence in accepting outside assistance. Although the doctrine stresses the centrality of human beings in the world, the North Korean people are to achieve this by their subordination to their leader; this supported the rule of Kim il Sung & his son’s subsequent succession...

A further reason why the pattern Ko-Dang did not sit well with the North Korean leader was that it was named after Cho Man-sik, a political leader who vied for power as a party leader, in direct opposition to Kim il Sung, in the early days of modern North Korea. As a leader of the Chosun Democratic Party he was imprisoned by the Russians to prevent a democratically elected party.​

Pretty heavy, eh? I mean, this is just a MA form we're talking about! But it's completely characteristic of the incredibly charged nature of TKD's symbolism and the cultural and political traumas that its own history, and the attitudes of the Korean people to it, reflects.

The more I look at it, the more I think that the gulf between the American and Korean perceptions of TKD is just unbridgeable, and in a sense, that's fine. There is no reason why people in this country cannot write their own interpretation and use of the technical contents of this art, without trying to ingest a complex and often tragic cultural iconography that for the Koreans seems to be at least as important as the martial aspect—now, if not in the early days when it was pretty much just a practical fighting tool reflected its origin as Koreanized Shotokan/Shudokan karate. As I say, what I find disturbing is the degree to which Americans seem willing to buy into what, for us, is just the mystification of a potentially very practical fighting art. We aren't Koreans, we don't really get the cultural/philosophical/political symbolism, we don't share anything like the same history and have no way to see the same meaning in TKD as the Koreans do. Which is fine. But by the same token, it makes no sense for us to believe we have to buy all the 'spiritual guidance' fluff that people have been complaining about in this thread. In Korea, it might make sense; over here, it's just dilletantism, cultural dabbling and posing, 'playing pretend'... however you want to put it.

 

[Steel Tiger]

I have been reading through this thread with interest for the last few days because I have often wondered why TKD is so vilified in the MA world. why haven't other arts suffered similarly. There has been some scoffing I guess, but nothing like what TKD catches.

Given the size of Olympic TKD why haven't you seen a swamping of standup striking events by crossover competitors?

I think that the reason that we are not seeing TKD competitors in MMA contests is not because they can't cut it as many would have us believe, but because in MMA competition you cannot win an Olympic medal. Why go into a competition where you will most likely have to roll around on the ground to win a few thousand dollars when you could compete for your country and win one of the most prestigious sporting prizes there is?

I'm thinking aloud a bit here... but I believe you can see this very unique and emotionally extremely intense relationship between Koreans and TKD in the treatment of the hyungs. The names of Okinawan and Japanese kata typically involve naturalistic imagery— Empi, 'flying swallow', Gankaku, 'Crane on a rock', Hangetsu, 'half-moon'—or simple statements of performance properties of the kata, e.g., Nijushiho 'twenty-four steps', Gojushiho 'fifty-four steps', Jitte 'ten hands' and so on. Compare these names with what you find in the ITF tuls, for example—Dan-Gun, the legendary semi-divine founder of Korea, Do-San, patriotic hero of the prewar resistance to the Japanese occupation, Won-Hyo, named for the monk who introduced Buddhism into Korea, Jun-Gun, a hero named after a Korean patriot who was executed in 1910 for the assassination of Hiro-Bumi Ito, the first Japanese Governor-General of Korea under the Occupation... the list goes on, Mythological and legendary heros, patriotic martyrs and generals.

Very interesting juxtaposition. One often thinks of the Japanese arts as tools of nationalist fervour, especially from between the wars, but they've got nothing on TKD. That is a very heavy burden for a martial art to carry around. It kind of makes me glad I don't do TKD because I know I would get interested in who all these people were and what they did. There is an interesting implication with these names though. A Korean performing these tuls would, I expect, be taught to contemplate the deeds of the persons they were named after. How would Americans feel about forms called, "George Washington" or "Abraham Lincoln". It would be tough to just switch off and do an "Abe Lincoln" without thinking about the man.

The more I look at it, the more I think that the gulf between the American and Korean perceptions of TKD is just unbridgeable, and in a sense, that's fine. There is no reason why people in this country cannot write their own interpretation and use of the technical contents of this art, without trying to ingest a complex and often tragic cultural iconography that for the Koreans seems to be at least as important as the martial aspect—now, if not in the early days when it was pretty much just a practical fighting tool reflected its origin as Koreanized Shotokan/Shudokan karate. As I say, what I find disturbing is the degree to which Americans seem willing to buy into what, for us, is just the mystification of a potentially very practical fighting art. We aren't Koreans, we don't really get the cultural/philosophical/political symbolism, we don't share anything like the same history and have no way to see the same meaning in TKD as the Koreans do. Which is fine. But by the same token, it makes no sense for us to believe we have to buy all the 'spiritual guidance' fluff that people have been complaining about in this thread. In Korea, it might make sense; over here, it's just dilletantism, cultural dabbling and posing, 'playing pretend'... however you want to put it.

And yet for all this TKD is still the most popular martial art in the world. It may get ridiculed by some areas of the martial arts world but it still attracts thousands each year. Can any other art say the same?

I, too, am no fan of the blind cultural immersion that one sees so often with Asian MAs. I have seen a few too many Jujutsu and Aikido instructors so overwhelmed by their Nihonophilia that their classes made little sense. The same is likely happening in TKD but with the addition of truly parochial cultural references. A lack of understanding or a misunderstanding and the presentation of such a failure must have an effect on the perception of the art.


All I can really say to all of you who are TKD practitioners is just keep doing what you do, whether it be improving the quality of life, learning effective combat techniques, or pursuing Olympic immortality. It doesn't really matter what macho young hot-bloods say during their dick-measuring contests as long as you are content in yourself.

 

[terryl965]

All I can say is WOW I need a day or two to take in this entire thread. When I really get everything into perspective I will post my feelings.

 

[FearlessFreep]

Which is fine. But by the same token, it makes no sense for us to believe we have to buy all the 'spiritual guidance' fluff that people have been complaining about in this thread. In Korea, it might make sense; over here, it's just dilletantism, cultural dabbling and posing, 'playing pretend'... however you want to put it.

I agree. I mean, I started TKD at 35. My motivations and character traits for hardwork, perseverance, etc, are pretty much well developed for whatever they are. TKD gives me a chance to explore them, but for neither me nor my kids to I see it as the prime mover in building those characteristics. As an American I have a different cultural heritage from which I may draw inspiration for our culture, and TKD just isn't part of it.

But now it makes more sense to me why WTf and KKW would develop forms and sparring with little combat practicality. It;s not a 'watering down' of TKD, but a growth of TKD into a wider acceptance that is all about those character developing aspects. I mean it's "watered down" in the sense of a practical combat fighting system, but that's not what TKD really is to them, if you will.

That;s not to say that's what *I want from Taekwondo. I *do* want a practical self-defense system at the root of it.

 

[Empty Hands]

I think that the reason that we are not seeing TKD competitors in MMA contests is not because they can't cut it as many would have us believe, but because in MMA competition you cannot win an Olympic medal. Why go into a competition where you will most likely have to roll around on the ground to win a few thousand dollars when you could compete for your country and win one of the most prestigious sporting prizes there is?

Respect and hard fighting, as well as popular acclaim. If not for that, wouldn't everyone be into Judo or TKD for the Olympic appeal?

Also, I do think that some TKD'ers have competed in MMA, although I don't recall details.

How would Americans feel about forms called, "George Washington" or "Abraham Lincoln". It would be tough to just switch off and do an "Abe Lincoln" without thinking about the man.

Really, really weird. I wouldn't like that at all. It would seem artificial and jingoistic, especially since those two notable fellows had nothing notable to do with martial arts. Even the "Americana" seems a bit weird to me, although I've gotten used to it.

 

[Flying Crane]

As an aikido-ka I can honestly say "I feel your pain".

Holy smokes did this thread take off in a hurry.

I haven't read thru it all, but I wanted to comment on this comment by Theletch.

I'll offer a different perspective: embrace the ridicule. Let the uninformed, or the blatantly stupid, think whatever they want. How does it hurt you? If they think you do something lousy, then they will underestimate you and that is to your benefit.

Once upon a time, one's martial training was kept very close and secret. You didn't want everyone else to know what you know, because you might need to actually defend you life with it someday. It's a bit more of a modern phenomenon to thump our chests and announce to the world "my stuff is good too!!", but then in order to prove it, you get suckered into playing their game.

I won't play their game, and I don't care if they think what I do is worthless. It's to my benefit that they think so. When I hear morons bash any art other than what they do, I just sort of smile and nod, and keep my own mouth shut.

Those who don't know, are usually the one's with the biggest mouth.

 

[Steel Tiger]

Respect and hard fighting, as well as popular acclaim. If not for that, wouldn't everyone be into Judo or TKD for the Olympic appeal?

Also, I do think that some TKD'ers have competed in MMA, although I don't recall details.

Well, yeah, I guess there are other things to go into MMA for. As to everyone doing Judo and TKD for the Olympic appeal, some are just realists I suppose and know that they are not going to the Olympics, but still like to say they do an Olympic sport. There is kudos and appeal in just the idea of participating in such a sport even if you will never go to the Olympics.

Really, really weird. I wouldn't like that at all. It would seem artificial and jingoistic, especially since those two notable fellows had nothing notable to do with martial arts. Even the "Americana" seems a bit weird to me, although I've gotten used to it.

But the Koreans whose names have been chosen for the tuls are not martial artists either, generlly speaking. They are indicative of patriotic ideals. It is quite clear that there are at least two types of TKD, and I'm not simply referring to technical differences. There is Korean TKD and there is International TKD.

This could actually be adding to the disrespect that TKD receives from so many other martial artists. Afterall, there is a worldwide governing body (or maybe two) and yet the art itself is not the same outside Korea as it is inside (and, again, I'm not talking about technical aspects).

I have to say I don't really know. Like Exile, I'm just thinking out loud and expressing some things that came to me while reading through the thread.

 

[exile]

... There is an interesting implication with these names though. A Korean performing these tuls would, I expect, be taught to contemplate the deeds of the persons they were named after. How would Americans feel about forms called, "George Washington" or "Abraham Lincoln". It would be tough to just switch off and do an "Abe Lincoln" without thinking about the man.

Yes. As I understand it, that's the intention. Even more, you're supposed to be able to 'see' the characteristics associated with the man, or heroic culture figure, or some great historical scholar's thinking, in the movements of the form itself. I swear, I'm not making this up. I have a book, Taekwondo: Philosophy and Culture, lavishly produced with supernaturally beautiful photographs of the Korean countryside and architecture, by Kyong Myong Lee, Professor of... are you ready?... Sports Diplomacy at Chungcheong College, KKW 9th dan, Advisory Member to the WTF, KKW researcher, Deputy Secretary General of the WTF from 1991–1999... there's more (including 9 books on TKD) if you want to hear it! ) And this is what we read about the KKW/WTF hyung Ilyeo:

Ilyeo means the thought of a great Buddhist priest of Silla Dynasty, Saint Wonhyo, which is characterized by the philosophy of oneness of mind (spirit) and body (material). It teaches that a point, a line or a circle ends up after all in one. Therefore, the poomsae represents the harmonization of spirit and body, which is the essence of martial art...
​

And there's lots more along these lines for all of the other WTF forms. I have read similar things about some of the ITF patterns, in which specific aspects of the form are related to episodes in the character's life (Do-San, which begins in a standard joonbi 'ready' stance, is supposed to represent a man in handcuffsI've read somewhere—a clear reference to the source figure's life of opposition and repeated imprisonment during the Occupation).

I, too, am no fan of the blind cultural immersion that one sees so often with Asian MAs. I have seen a few too many Jujutsu and Aikido instructors so overwhelmed by their Nihonophilia that their classes made little sense. The same is likely happening in TKD but with the addition of truly parochial cultural references. A lack of understanding or a misunderstanding and the presentation of such a failure must have an effect on the perception of the art.

Parochial, with a vengeance.

I have to say, there's something paradoxical, and strange in a very deep way, about an art which is seen by those who developed it as so saturated, to the very core, in a particular local cultural and political history, and yet which has disseminated so widely. Something's gotta give, somwhere along the line!

But now it makes more sense to me why WTf and KKW would develop forms and sparring with little combat practicality. It;s not a 'watering down' of TKD, but a growth of TKD into a wider acceptance that is all about those character developing aspects. I mean it's "watered down" in the sense of a practical combat fighting system, but that's not what TKD really is to them, if you will.

That;s not to say that's what *I want from Taekwondo. I *do* want a practical self-defense system at the root of it.

I feel the same way. You and I, and pretty much all other Westerners, look at TKD and see something radically different, really fundamentally different, from what people in Korea see, is what I'm coming to think. And we have to go with what we see, not what they see, because we can't, and have no reason whatever, to see it the way they do. Our cultural experience has no connections with theirs, in the critical respects that TKD emerged in, which would lead us to understand TKD in the way they do.

 

[Kacey]

Exile, for the most part I agree with you - but there's one part here that I need to give a different slant to:

look at the incredible hostility to Juche, with its associations (for many South Koreans apparently) of what they took to be General Choi's betrayal of his own nation by his contacts with the North. Look for example at the discussion here, containing this representative excerpt:

I can't speak for people in Korea, but I can speak for quite a few ITF practitioners I've met - either in person or on a BB somewhere - about why they don't like Juche. The symbolism, as you said, relates to a concept of self-reliance; on the face of it, this seems like a good thing. The problem is, it's a Communist theory of self-reliance - while the direct meaning from Gen. Choi is

[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, Sans Serif]JUCHE is a philosophical idea that man is the master of everything and decides everything. In other words, the idea that man is the master of the world and his own destiny. It is said that this idea was rooted in Baekdu Mountain which symbolizes the spirit of the Korean people. The diagram represents Baekdu mountain.[/FONT]

there are a few problems. Juche was, indeed, introduced last of all of the ITF patterns, and it did replace Ko-Dang - but that's not why people don't like it. It was introduced as an attempt to influence the Olympic Committee to include the ITF, rather than the WTF, in the Olympics, and the Communist ideal it represents is that man - in the form of the Communist Party - is the master of his own destiny; a slight difference from the definition above, which is the one given to ITF students. The "man" referred to in this definition is a general "man", not an individual "man", and the concept is used by the Communist Party in North Korea as a way to bolster the concept that individuals should do whatever the Party tells them.

It is that interpretation that is why many ITF practitioners don't like Juche - in fact, many don't do it; they continue to practice Ko-Dang instead. Some practice the physical movements of Juche, and call the pattern Ko-Dang... I learned both, and my students, as they reach I Dan and start to learn the tuls needed for II Dan, learn both; they are each part of the history and tradition of TKD, even though the inclusion of Ko-Dang disrupts the philosophical explanation of the reason for 24 patterns (24 = a day; by metaphor, a day = a life - thus, the 24 patterns represent an entire life). Ko-Dang, however, is a historical revenant, and we continue to include it as such.

 

[Cirdan]

Very interesting indeed. I did not know of the political influences inherent in the new forms, I only assumed the old shotokan kata were thrown out and hastily replaced so bogus claims could be made about TKD being the 2000 year old korean art. Sports diplomacy indeed.

Well I am off to do some cross country skiing. (50 000 year old Norwegian art. Each and every time I slide my ski forward I symbolize the spear stabbing of King Olav the Holy at the battle of Stikklestad a thousand years ago. Hail Thor!)

 

[exile]

Juche was, indeed, introduced last of all of the ITF patterns, and it did replace Ko-Dang - but that's not why people don't like it. It was introduced as an attempt to influence the Olympic Committee to include the ITF, rather than the WTF, in the Olympics, and the Communist ideal it represents is that man - in the form of the Communist Party - is the master of his own destiny; a slight difference from the definition above, which is the one given to ITF students. The "man" referred to in this definition is a general "man", not an individual "man", and the concept is used by the Communist Party in North Korea as a way to bolster the concept that individuals should do whatever the Party tells them.

Yes, that's right in line with the North's old-style, unapologetic Stalinism (the old North Korean communists were always much more closely aligned with the Soviet Union than with China). The so-called 'New Soviet Man', a phrase you used to hear a lot during the '30s and '40s was exactly that—'man' as redesigned by the Party. I didn't realize that about the role of Juche in the Olympic politicking... wheels within wheels, eh?

It sometimes seems as if virtually everything to do with TKD forms, whether of the WTF or ITF variety, is so freighted with conflict and extreme contention—a direct reflection of the really severe conflict that Korea itself has experienced over so much of its history, but also the play of considerable interpersonal conflict amongst many of the main players in the emerges of modern TKD.

It is that interpretation that is why many ITF practitioners don't like Juche - in fact, many don't do it; they continue to practice Ko-Dang instead.

I'm not surprised. That kind of symbolic association was the kiss of death on the Korean peninsula and still is, I guess (and by extension). This is yet another instance of what I've noticed about forms specifically and the kind of culture of TKD in general—everything seems a matter of life and death, everything carries so much weight.

Some practice the physical movements of Juche, and call the pattern Ko-Dang...

Right—the problem is the associations of the name.

I learned both, and my students, as they reach I Dan and start to learn the tuls needed for II Dan, learn both; they are each part of the history and tradition of TKD, even though the inclusion of Ko-Dang disrupts the philosophical explanation of the reason for 24 patterns (24 = a day; by metaphor, a day = a life - thus, the 24 patterns represent an entire life). Ko-Dang, however, is a historical revenant, and we continue to include it as such.

That seems like a good way to do it. It's a nice illustration of how the nastiness of everyday political reality can mess up all attempts at symbolic neatness...

 

[azmyth]

WoW. this thread is going off in all kinds of crazy direction.. interesting read!

 

[exile]

WoW. this thread is going off in all kinds of crazy direction.. interesting read!

But see, it's all connected to the problem of why TKD isn't taken seriously by (some)people outside the art. There are several layers to the problem; it's not a simple, one-factor story. You have the problem of the Olympification of the sport, leading to it being diluted over time for combat application; the emphasis on rapid promotion and the after-school daycare aspect that have been noted, the political/historical/cosmological/symbolic complexity that makes things so obscure and counterintuitive from the US perspective especially, and ties into the seemingly excessive emphasis on a spiritual/moral/character-building essence of the art, as vs. combat effectiveness... these things all feed in...
'

 

[IcemanSK]

Exile, for the most part I agree with you - but there's one part here that I need to give a different slant to:



I can't speak for people in Korea, but I can speak for quite a few ITF practitioners I've met - either in person or on a BB somewhere - about why they don't like Juche. The symbolism, as you said, relates to a concept of self-reliance; on the face of it, this seems like a good thing. The problem is, it's a Communist theory of self-reliance - while the direct meaning from Gen. Choi is

there are a few problems. Juche was, indeed, introduced last of all of the ITF patterns, and it did replace Ko-Dang - but that's not why people don't like it. It was introduced as an attempt to influence the Olympic Committee to include the ITF, rather than the WTF, in the Olympics, and the Communist ideal it represents is that man - in the form of the Communist Party - is the master of his own destiny; a slight difference from the definition above, which is the one given to ITF students. The "man" referred to in this definition is a general "man", not an individual "man", and the concept is used by the Communist Party in North Korea as a way to bolster the concept that individuals should do whatever the Party tells them.

It is that interpretation that is why many ITF practitioners don't like Juche - in fact, many don't do it; they continue to practice Ko-Dang instead. Some practice the physical movements of Juche, and call the pattern Ko-Dang... I learned both, and my students, as they reach I Dan and start to learn the tuls needed for II Dan, learn both; they are each part of the history and tradition of TKD, even though the inclusion of Ko-Dang disrupts the philosophical explanation of the reason for 24 patterns (24 = a day; by metaphor, a day = a life - thus, the 24 patterns represent an entire life). Ko-Dang, however, is a historical revenant, and we continue to include it as such.

That's really cool info, Kacey! I was taught Juche in the early 90's but not given any meaning to it. Thanks for that!