Non-martial training in martial arts

[jobo]

That’s too iffy for the strong statements you made earlier. As you said, the biggest issue is that articles for mass consumption often draw strong conclusions where the study result only allows inferences.

no that to is a fact, you know more than i do about studies, and you have on many occasions identified the use of control groups as a neccersary composite of a study

 

[jobo]

All cults share certain characteristics.

What is your definition of a cult?



Generally that is true. But is that to the benefit of only the teacher, or are there any group benefits expected? And could any group benefits extend to other parts of society?



So answer your own question; but consider if there is benefit to others beside the teacher or you.

If an entity (organization) desires to limit the expression of individuality/free will, but not eliminate it completely, would you see benefit to that? Could that enhance the mission completion of the entity?

people use, " cult" as a term for things they or wider society disaprove off, seldom for things that they are part of. In short any group who's behaviour patterns or culture differ significantly from the norms of society is potentially a cult. Imposing the norms of behaviour from 1900s Japan in to twenty first century America is by any reasonable defintion a cult.

all cults think they are to the benefit of their members, they there fore conclude. That punishing you for failing to obey is also to their benefit.

you really need to run a comparison, let's say your son attends chess club and he turns up late, and the captain makes him jump up and down for five mins as punishment.as lateness is not allowed in their culture.

most parents would think that' Odd n fact consider it to be bullying and remove their son immediately. If however he turns up late for karate and is punished for the good of others members, you would considered ok?

 

[hoshin1600]

"the difference between a cult and a religion,,, a cult is BS, it was created by one person and that person knows its BS. In a religion ....that person is dead"

Joe Rogan

 

[oftheherd1]

people use, " cult" as a term for things they or wider society disaprove off, seldom for things that they are part of. In short any group who's behaviour patterns or culture differ significantly from the norms of society is potentially a cult. Imposing the norms of behaviour from 1900s Japan in to twenty first century America is by any reasonable defintion a cult.

all cults think they are to the benefit of their members, they there fore conclude. That punishing you for failing to obey is also to their benefit.

you really need to run a comparison, let's say your son attends chess club and he turns up late, and the captain makes him jump up and down for five mins as punishment.as lateness is not allowed in their culture.

most parents would think that' Odd n fact consider it to be bullying and remove their son immediately. If however he turns up late for karate and is punished for the good of others members, you would considered ok?

Your first two paragraphs are very broad, relatively new ideas, and are not accepted by everyone. You might want to peruse through some of the below URLs if you are really interested, which you probably are not.

What's a Cult?

cult - Bing

As to your 3rd and 4th paragraphs, I think they are weak. What benefit would there be to jumping up and down for lateness to a chess club meet as a way to improve chess ability, as opposed to jumping up and down, or doing pushups for being late to a karate class? In the case of the karate class, the student will gain more physical ability, and he and the other students will have some discipline instilled in them.

 

[oftheherd1]

"the difference between a cult and a religion,,, a cult is BS, it was created by one person and that person knows its BS. In a religion ....that person is dead"

Joe Rogan

Based on that, which may have been funny in the context of some comedy routine of his, I would personally seek somewhere else for a definition of a cult.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

no that to is a fact, you know more than i do about studies, and you have on many occasions identified the use of control groups as a neccersary composite of a study

That wasn’t my point. You said the links didnt provide scientific support and listed specific flaw categories. The fact is you don’t know if those flaws exist. They might, or they might not. Your claim was over-hyped - the very practice you were railing against.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

people use, " cult" as a term for things they or wider society disaprove off, seldom for things that they are part of. In short any group who's behaviour patterns or culture differ significantly from the norms of society is potentially a cult. Imposing the norms of behaviour from 1900s Japan in to twenty first century America is by any reasonable defintion a cult.

all cults think they are to the benefit of their members, they there fore conclude. That punishing you for failing to obey is also to their benefit.

you really need to run a comparison, let's say your son attends chess club and he turns up late, and the captain makes him jump up and down for five mins as punishment.as lateness is not allowed in their culture.

most parents would think that' Odd n fact consider it to be bullying and remove their son immediately. If however he turns up late for karate and is punished for the good of others members, you would considered ok?

By your loose definition, we are overrun with cults. Most businesses, sports teams and indeed all sports, every fighting training, most bars, and some service and social organizations fit that overreaching definition.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

you really need to run a comparison, let's say your son attends chess club and he turns up late, and the captain makes him jump up and down for five mins as punishment.as lateness is not allowed in their culture.

Chess isn’t a physical pursuit, so the pushups have no value there. A better comparison would be the captain making him sit to the side and memorize a chess board from a specific match.

 

[jobo]

Your first two paragraphs are very broad, relatively new ideas, and are not accepted by everyone. You might want to peruse through some of the below URLs if you are really interested, which you probably are not.

What's a Cult?

cult - Bing

As to your 3rd and 4th paragraphs, I think they are weak. What benefit would there be to jumping up and down for lateness to a chess club meet as a way to improve chess ability, as opposed to jumping up and down, or doing pushups for being late to a karate class? In the case of the karate class, the student will gain more physical ability, and he and the other students will have some discipline instilled in them.

well fitness is an important part of chess , and more importantly the jumping up and down is a punishment,, the first rule of phycology, is don't use behavour you want to encourage, in this case excersise as a punishment , it only setts up negative attitudes to that behaviour, in this case. Excersise.

 

[jobo]

By your loose definition, we are overrun with cults. Most businesses, sports teams and indeed all sports, every fighting training, most bars, and some service and social organizations fit that overreaching definition.

well no, if all sports teams behave in a similar way, that then puts them within normal behaviour, so excluded them from the defintion

 

[Gerry Seymour]

well fitness is an important part of chess , and more importantly the jumping up and down is a punishment,, the first rule of phycology, is don't use behavour you want to encourage, in this case excersise as a punishment , it only setts up negative attitudes to that behaviour, in this case. Excersise.

That last part is valid, but beside your point. MA instructors use physical activity because it is beneficial to the person (and in hopes it will tire them a bit so they’ll be less fidgety).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

well no, if all sports teams behave in a similar way, that then puts them within normal behaviour, so excluded them from the defintion

But all sports teams don’t have a similar way. It varies by sport. And you referred specifically to

any group who's behaviour patterns or culture differ significantly from the norms of society

Much of sport is quite different from societal norms. If sports having similar norms makes them non-cult, why wouldn’t that also apply to groups of MA with similar norms?

 

[jobo]

well fitness is an important part of chess , and more importantly the jumping up and down is a punishment,, the first rule of phycology, is don't use behavour you want to encourage, in this case excersise as a punishment , it only setts up negative attitudes to that behaviour, in this case. Excersise.

i came from a time and place were running round the sports field on a freezing day in ankle deep mud was a " good " punishment for not turning up for sports class, i can say with some certainly this did not result in producing life long runners

 

[jobo]

That last part is valid, but beside your point. MA instructors use physical activity because it is beneficial to the person (and in hopes it will tire them a bit so they’ll be less fidgety).

see above, its not benifocal f it puts them off the notion than exercise. Is a fun activerty done for fun.

they should reward them with press ups for good behaviour, and exclude them for bad

 

[jobo]

But all sports teams don’t have a similar way. It varies by sport. And you referred specifically to




Much of sport is quite different from societal norms. If sports having similar norms makes them non-cult, why wouldn’t that also apply to groups of MA with similar norms?

but participating in sport, IS a societal norm, so the culture of sports teams that behave much the same as each other is normal by the stabdards of that society

 

[jobo]

but participating in sport, IS a societal norm, so the culture of sports teams that behave much the same as each other is normal by the stabdards of that society

ma is a normal, as its seems its the only sport that inflicts behaviours from a different country and a different century, that is nit normal in sport

nb that should say abnormal, i can't edit at the moment

 

[oftheherd1]

well fitness is an important part of chess , and more importantly the jumping up and down is a punishment,, the first rule of phycology, is don't use behavour you want to encourage, in this case excersise as a punishment , it only setts up negative attitudes to that behaviour, in this case. Excersise.

The negative attitude would be against being late for class, although I really doubt a teacher would do that without being late having become a constant for a student. But disobeying the teacher would be something I would think was insubordinate and disruptive to the rest of the students. If a student doesn't want to exercise, I would say the student has no desire to learn a martial art.

Fitness as an important part of chess? Are you referring to some heretofore unknown combat chess?

 

[jobo]

The negative attitude would be against being late for class, although I really doubt a teacher would do that without being late having become a constant for a student. But disobeying the teacher would be something I would think was insubordinate and disruptive to the rest of the students. If a student doesn't want to exercise, I would say the student has no desire to learn a martial art.

Fitness as an important part of chess? Are you referring to some heretofore unknown combat chess?

no the negative attitude would be towards the punishment,

chess takes great fitness to sit and concentrate for hours, if you look at the current top players they are all late 20s and look like they work out, its not co incidence. That fat / unfit old men are not in the current 10 ten of world players I'm fact i doubt you could find one in the top 100 or so

 

[JR 137]

Doing various exercises due to being late for an MA class isn’t strictly punishment in every dojo. Depending on how late a student is to our class, he/she may have to do more exercises before they’re allowed on the floor. Why? As a warmup. If you walk in and everyone is in the middle of doing 100 roundhouse kicks during basics, you shouldn’t just jump right into it. That would be a great way to pull something. My CI in that instance will have the student do some pushups, jumping jacks, etc. then stretch a bit on their own before lining up. Punishment or not is in the eye of the beholder.

Nothing cultish about making someone warm up adequately before joining the physical activity.

 

[oftheherd1]

no the negative attitude would be towards the punishment,

chess takes great fitness to sit and concentrate for hours, if you look at the current top players they are all late 20s and look like they work out, its not co incidence. That fat / unfit old men are not in the current 10 ten of world players I'm fact i doubt you could find one in the top 100 or so

Negative attitude for minor punishment (that would help me in the long run) just wouldn't enter my mind. I guess I am just wired different.

Of course, I never knew any place that used that option without it being explained to students when they signed up, not something we have clarified yet. If I knew the rules were I would have to do a certain amount of pushups, or squat thrusts if I were late, so be it. Even if it were explained to me just as I arrived late, I would just do it and resolve to ensure I wasn't late any more.