No women allowed In this guys BJJ class

[Duss D Gnutz]

I do not read it to say they are excluding women. I read it to say they are segregating class by sex. But I could be wrong.
I could see where current events and possibly previous complaints received within the specific community may have motivated this action.
Not teaching women and teaching them in male/female groups are two very different things.

In either case, the intended result is that he is no longer personally training women himself.

I can see this becoming more common in the future, especially in the grappling arts.

The reason I called this a "modified" version of the Mike Pence Rule is because the Mike Pence Rule allows interaction with women when other people are present.

In this case, he can't even allow that. And for good reason: the physical contact.

What immediately comes to mind is the incident at Aretha Franklin's funeral, where the pastor was groping Arianna Grande's breast while giving a speech... and this was on national TV.

Of course, different people saw different things (she actually defended the pastor, and said she wasn't being groped).

Different people are going to perceive things differently, so he has to eliminate that risk altogether.

 

[skribs]

I just heard about this yesterday. Looks like he's adopting a modified version of the "Mike Pence Rule" (formerly known as the "Billy Graham Rule").

I think similar rules are more common than the media would have you believe. There were plenty of similar rules at my church and youth group events. Male pastors and staff couldn't be alone with women (especially in youth group), and females with men. It serves two roles:

1. Protect the child should the pastor or staff member turn out to be a predator
2. Protect the pastor and staff from false accusations from a parishioner

Now, obviously this isn't foolproof. But it does cover a lot of the possible situations in which something could happen. Similarly, most of the married/taken guys and gals at my church would adopt the similar Mike Pence approach that they wouldn't be alone with someone of the opposite gender. Just like the rules for youth pastors and kids, it serves a dual purpose:

1. Easier to avoid temptation
2. Reduces the jealousy or anxiety that your partner may have, should they suspect you of cheating on them

I apply these policies at my Taekwondo school. If I open, I want to make sure there is a parent present at all times a kid is there. If a parent drops off a kid and asks "can I just drop them off", I ask that they at least wait until there's another parent present. I've never gotten any pushback. In this way, I can never have a kid or their parent accuse me of misdeeds, because there are always witnesses there. (I would be less scared of that now that we have security cameras in place). In a couple of cases, I've had students who have needed a ride, and I've always checked with their parents before giving them a ride.

We also try to pair up boys with boys and girls with girls when we're doing drills, especially drills that involve grabbing each other. It's not a hard-and-fast rule. Sometimes we have to go by size, or we have an odd number of each. Sometimes it makes the students more comfortable. With some of the teenagers, sometimes it keeps them on-task better instead of spending their time flirting.

 

[drop bear]

The issue you have is that the top BJJ competitors and coaches are guys.

So if you are a girl and you don't have access to that you are at a disadvantage.

 

[Duss D Gnutz]

The issue you have is that the top BJJ competitors and coaches are guys.

So if you are a girl and you don't have access to that you are at a disadvantage.

I seriously doubt that there are many BJJ dojos within a 300 mile radius of where I live (Hampton Roads area) that are run by "top competitors and coaches" that I've seen on national TV. And probably most people here on MT can say the the same, or something similar.

Those women will be perfectly fine.

 

[skribs]

The issue you have is that the top BJJ competitors and coaches are guys.

So if you are a girl and you don't have access to that you are at a disadvantage.

Right now I'm studying for my CISSP exam. It's a cybersecurity exam, but I do see a lot of applicable connections between the material and martial arts training. One big topic is the concept of risk management. With risk management, you analyze each potential threat (adverse event), and you analyze possible countermeasures to that event, in terms of the cost/benefit. You also look at layering your countermeasures to provide a stronger defense. You also have to recognize that you can't eliminate all risk, and at some point it will be cost prohibitive to give more security.

In the general concept of martial arts, you can see this discussion play out (and I've seen you play it out many times, although I've disagreed with your exact conclusions). When you throw a punch, you lose half of your guard to throw that punch. If you're sure of that punch, you might accept that risk. Or you may use head movement or position the other hand to avoid/intercept the most likely counter to your punch. This is a quick risk assessment in the middle of a fight. You may also do bigger risk assessments when training. Do you notice weak areas in your game? Do you address those weaknesses, or do you manage that risk by playing to your strengths?

In this context, you have two initial risks:

• Sexual harassment/assault
• False report of sexual harassment/assault

In effort to avoid these, some schools have segregated by gender. This leads to a third risk:

• Discrimination by gender (and the associated backlash)

This leaves you with three options. Accept the first two risks to avoid the third, accept the third risk to avoid the first two, or try to find a middle ground that avoids both risks as best as possible. In this particular case, these are some suggestions I would have. Not all of them should be implemented. These are various controls to attempt to mitigate both issues.

• Group classes are not segregated, but one-on-one private lessons must be with the same gender. Alternately: one-on-one private lessons allow the student to pick which instructor provides the lesson, or any specific instructors that they don't want to work with.
• When drilling or rolling during class, group girls and boys together.
• Have three separate classes - girls only, boys only, and mixed. In this way, girls who want to avoid rolling with boys for fear of harassment can have the freedom to do so, and those that want more opportunities can take them.
• Use security cameras to record classes. Ensure there are notices that classes are recorded and archived for legal reasons. These won't catch everything, but it can be a deterrent to males harassing females, and can provide evidence of their innocence if a false claim is made.
• Periodic interviews with students to ask if there are any issues with the school. Interviews should be conducted by different instructors to ensure a single instructor cannot manipulate the interview results. (This goes into the concept of job rotation to detect fraud and abuse of privileges).

Some of these may not be the best solution. Some of them may be better than others. Maybe some of them wouldn't work well together. And none of them would be perfect. It's possible that someone knows where the cameras are, and how to grope someone without being caught on camera. It's possible that you have one-on-one classes with the same gender, and that person happens to make advances on you. However, implementing some measures like this would drastically decrease the potential of the first two risks.

 

[skribs]

Funny story, semi-related to this thread. I had a student call me sexist in class the other day.

We were working on combinations, and one girl was more focused on keeping her hair out of her face than she was with her punches and kicks. I explained that you need to do your job until the fight is over (or in this case the drill) and then fix your hair. I also showed how with her hands and arms up as high as they were, just how much real estate there was to strike her ribs, stomach, or chest.

Her older sister was offended. She said something along the lines of "that's sexist, because you don't have long hair so you don't know how annoying it is."

I explained that I have had long hair in the past, and that I've had situations where I've gotten sweat in my eyes, and I had to finish my task before I could clear them. In this case, it was doing a whole form/kata practically blind until my performance was over and I could wipe my eyes. After that, we moved on. I was worried it was going to escalate from there, but I'm glad she accepted my explanation.

It's just kind of funny. Especially because she's saying it's sexist because I don't have long hair...when it's kind of sexist of her to assume boys can't. I've given similar lectures on hair to both boys and girls. Especially boys with the Justin Bieber kind of haircut, that have to flick their head every two seconds to get the hair out of their eyes.

 

[dvcochran]

I think similar rules are more common than the media would have you believe. There were plenty of similar rules at my church and youth group events. Male pastors and staff couldn't be alone with women (especially in youth group), and females with men. It serves two roles:

1. Protect the child should the pastor or staff member turn out to be a predator
2. Protect the pastor and staff from false accusations from a parishioner

Now, obviously this isn't foolproof. But it does cover a lot of the possible situations in which something could happen. Similarly, most of the married/taken guys and gals at my church would adopt the similar Mike Pence approach that they wouldn't be alone with someone of the opposite gender. Just like the rules for youth pastors and kids, it serves a dual purpose:

1. Easier to avoid temptation
2. Reduces the jealousy or anxiety that your partner may have, should they suspect you of cheating on them

I apply these policies at my Taekwondo school. If I open, I want to make sure there is a parent present at all times a kid is there. If a parent drops off a kid and asks "can I just drop them off", I ask that they at least wait until there's another parent present. I've never gotten any pushback. In this way, I can never have a kid or their parent accuse me of misdeeds, because there are always witnesses there. (I would be less scared of that now that we have security cameras in place). In a couple of cases, I've had students who have needed a ride, and I've always checked with their parents before giving them a ride.

We also try to pair up boys with boys and girls with girls when we're doing drills, especially drills that involve grabbing each other. It's not a hard-and-fast rule. Sometimes we have to go by size, or we have an odd number of each. Sometimes it makes the students more comfortable. With some of the teenagers, sometimes it keeps them on-task better instead of spending their time flirting.

Smart.

 

[drop bear]

I seriously doubt that there are many BJJ dojos within a 300 mile radius of where I live (Hampton Roads area) that are run by "top competitors and coaches" that I've seen on national TV. And probably most people here on MT can say the the same, or something similar.

Those women will be perfectly fine.

The school in question is though.

My school does all right in that department as well.

 

[skribs]

In this context, you have two initial risks:

• Sexual harassment/assault
• False report of sexual harassment/assault

In effort to avoid these, some schools have segregated by gender. This leads to a third risk:

• Discrimination by gender (and the associated backlash)

A tangential update: this third risk is actually called a secondary risk: when a risk response creates a new risk.
(I'm still studying).