Ninja Mask???

[kwaichang]

Easier to find and cheaper to buy than what?

At the time of Hatsumi Sensei's book, ninja garb was not sold in Japan. The Kabuki garb was the only black "outfits" sold as traditionally black was worn by discedent protestors.

 

[allenjp]

OK, I think I finally found my answer. I went ahead and purchased "The Way of the NINJA, Secret Techniques" by Hatsumi. As far as I am aware, (correct me if I am wrong) there is no controversy about this particular book having actually been written by anyone else. In this book is shown how to wear a face mask with "Sanjaku-tenugui". It is black in the picture. However it is not overly emphasised. Only a couple of pictures actually show anyone wearing one. It also shows a picture of someone clad in "ninja clothes" with a mask, but it looks almost nothing like the "shinobi shozoku". It also shows some "shinobi armor" which looks a lot simpler and lighter than what I have trditionally seen referred to as "samurai armor". It also says they wore chain mail of which I had no idea before. And as far as color I read somewhere in the Ninpiden yesterday that mention several colors, and yes one of them was black. Hatsumis book doesn't seem to mention black, but a lot of people in his book are wearing it. I think the answer is that they wore lots of different things depending on the situation, but yes, on occasion, they did cover their faces with a mask. Thanks for all the info guys...

 

[allenjp]

Sorry, it was the Shoninki, not the Ninpiden that mentioned the colors (for a specific Ryu) here's the quote:

"In addition, clothes should be dyed green, black or deep purple. There are various types of surroundings, therefore, select the appropriate color for blending in. In the rain change to haori."

 

[allenjp]

Oh, bother.

Okay, allenjp, rather than explain all your misconceptions ad nauseum, I'll just supply you a thread to peruse at your leisure:

Ninjutsu History sources

Now you can come to your own conclusions about this "highly illegal counterculture" *snicker*.

Laterz.

Hey Heretic,

I took your advice and started reading a lot of sources including the ones in the link to the thread about Ninjutsu History Sources. In that thread several sources were posted by Don Roley, including a link to the Fujita Seiko Tripod website, in which the following is found:

To understand the reasons why Fujita decided to consign his hereditary, family Ninjutsu system to the list of extinct Japanese martial arts from the pre-modern period, while passing on his other systems, requires reflection upon the nature of Ninjutsu in Japanese history. Unlike the samurai arts that had evolved with Japan through the long peace of the Tokugawa Shogunate, and further still after the Meiji modernization, Ninjutsu had always been an underground and illegal subculture that remained beyond the scope of impact by government decrees. The martial arts historian Donn F. Draeger in his book, Classical Budo: The Martial Arts and Ways of Japan, Vol. II. reminds us that Ninjutsu had developed among an oppressed class of people that depended upon secrecy for survival. He writes "below the rank of the commoner were the so called hinin 'nonhumans'" (Draeger, 19). Draeger then goes on to mention that the ninja often came from this shunned class, the hinin, and thus, Ninjutsu had always thrived for the very reason that it was a close knit system that was completely hidden from anyone outside its immediate family circle.

Is this website (again this link posted by Don Roley) a fraud? Was Fujita Seiko a fraud?

I have also read the sources that say that the Iga region in particular was made up of (among others) Jizamurai (lower class of Samurai I believe) these two things don't seem to jive, but I could be wrong.

Please don't think that I am attacking your info, I sincerely want to know this stuff, and you seem to know a lot more than some others. But when you refer me to a thread which contains info specifically opposite to what you postulate it is kinda confusing...

thanks again for all the info.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Unlike the samurai arts that had evolved with Japan through the long peace of the Tokugawa Shogunate, and further still after the Meiji modernization, Ninjutsu had always been an underground and illegal subculture that remained beyond the scope of impact by government decrees.

Which government?

The martial arts historian Donn F. Draeger in his book, Classical Budo: The Martial Arts and Ways of Japan, Vol. II. reminds us that Ninjutsu had developed among an oppressed class of people that depended upon secrecy for survival. He writes "below the rank of the commoner were the so called hinin 'nonhumans'" (Draeger, 19). Draeger then goes on to mention that the ninja often came from this shunned class, the hinin, and thus, Ninjutsu had always thrived for the very reason that it was a close knit system that was completely hidden from anyone outside its immediate family circle.

Draeger, for all his research, was unfortunately not quite correct on this issue (he was also reportedly one of the first people to get PO-ed at Hatsumi for never teaching the same technique twice...).

 

[allenjp]

Which government?


Draeger, for all his research, was unfortunately not quite correct on this issue (he was also reportedly one of the first people to get PO-ed at Hatsumi for never teaching the same technique twice...).

I dunno which government. It's a quote from someone else. I didn't say it, nor did I say I agree with it.

About Draeger being wrong, that's fine, I don't know anything about him. All I know is that someone has given me information, and then referred me to a link which has info that appears to contradict what he said. So I am not stating anything as fact nor attacking anyone, I just want to know. Maybe you can tell me the answers to my questions, is this website a fraud? Was Fujita Seiko a fraud?

 

[Albertus]

I don't know why anybody is interested in the Ninja mask?
I tried to use it and actually have wear it during training but it is basically useless. It blocks your hearing, makes you breath louder and you cannot see where your opponent is anymore because you only have very limited vision in front of you left.
I don't think any real Ninja was wearing this piece of clothing!!!!
Just according to my practical experience.

Happy training...

 

[Bruno@MT]

Was Fujita Seiko a fraud?

I just read this book.
It is really an interesting read. It is written by a Bujinkan Shihan, so the writer knows what he is talking about.
The book begins with a description of where all the information comes from, and most of the book has source references which are listed in a long list at the end of the book. The info comes from multiple sources.

Basically, Fujita Seiko was the real deal. I was also told someone that many koryu sensei held him in very high esteem.

The book also convinced me that none of us in any xkan could claim to be 'ninja'. Ninjutsu is not only about techniques, but also about physical conditioning and learning to control your body. I am not going into details (the book is only 10$ and more than worth it) but if you look at his early conditioning and endurance training, it is obvious that none today can really claim that title.

But perhaps most importantly to the question of his legitimacy: he came from a ninja family, he had the scrolls documenting koga-ryu and the lineage, and upon death he deeded them to the ninja museum, since he didn't pass on the art. The book also goes into his reasons for that decision btw. And while I think it is sad that the art is lost, I can understand his decision.

Anyway, sorry for the offtopic. I just felt like replying to this specific thing because I just finished reading the book, and I think Fujita Seiko was a) a ninja and b) a truly remarkable man.

 

[Aiki Lee]

I don't know why anybody is interested in the Ninja mask?
I tried to use it and actually have wear it during training but it is basically useless. It blocks your hearing, makes you breath louder and you cannot see where your opponent is anymore because you only have very limited vision in front of you left.
I don't think any real Ninja was wearing this piece of clothing!!!!
Just according to my practical experience.

Happy training...

What kind of messed up mask are you wearing? And for that matter who would make their students train in masks? In my organization we practice elements of stealth and concealment and as long as you use thin material you can hear just fine. With the noe uncovered you breath just fine, and none of my vision was ever blocked by the makshift mask I created.

 

[Cryozombie]

You guys are seriously wearing ninja masks?

LOL.

 

[Albertus]

What's wrong with wearing Ninja masks? It is part of our Ninja tradition. You make it sound as if it is something totally alien. But we don't wear them all the time, hardly anytime actually. We tried them out a few times but it was no succes. Allthough I was exaggeration a bit the last time, it did hinder all of our senses. We used normal Ninjamasks from the shops, no selfmade. But maybe that is better, we will try that out. If it is a succes I will let you know.

 

[Aiki Lee]

Store bought "ninja masks" have nothign to do with the actual tradition as the earlier posts in this thread indicate. There would be few times a ninja would wear a mask, though I can imagine there would be some instances when he would cover his face.

We only cover our face when practicing concealing ourselves in the shadows at night or when camoflauging ourselves in the woods. Or to keep the bugs off our faces.

 

[Cryozombie]

Ninja Mask =

 

[Aiki Lee]

actually a hannya mask would be pretty cool to own.

 

[Kusankagi]

1. ninja wear or did wear hood/mask (we do)
2. any who train this art is good in it...otherwise your not really training more then your eyes..
3. there is more mystery to us then meets many eyes...
4. japan doesn't claim anything mr hatsumi has sold....
5. there was a Japanese museum since the 20's that had plenty of things that was visible by an "enterprising martial artist" to claim as theirs....

 

[Sanke]

1. ninja wear or did wear hood/mask (we do)
2. any who train this art is good in it...otherwise your not really training more then your eyes..
3. there is more mystery to us then meets many eyes...
4. japan doesn't claim anything mr hatsumi has sold....
5. there was a Japanese museum since the 20's that had plenty of things that was visible by an "enterprising martial artist" to claim as theirs....

Could you please read what you just posted and then try again? I honestly didn't understand anything past point 1 there, and I disagree with you already. Also, is the guy in the background holding sai? If so, oh dear...

 

[Supra Vijai]

I second Sanke's post... could you please repost that as it's a bit hard to follow. From the little I got though, I disagree with pretty much all dot points, the first one especially... It would be like me saying:

1) Ninja trained with modern hand guns and trained in reality based self defence as it is pertinent to the laws of Melbourne, Australia circa 2012 (we do)

As for the others, well that kinda loses me. I'll try to go through it point by point here:

2) Training in the art does NOT make you good at it. I for instance have been training for about 5 years now, however I am mediocre at best (by my own self evaluation). I am not totally rubbish but by no standards am I "good". What is your definition of good anyway? I don't understand what you mean by "training more than your eyes"... Are you learning based on videos?

3) There is more mystery to anything than meets the eye. Any martial art (picked that example just to keep some contextual relevance here) can look fairly straightforward or simple but its nuances and subtleties can only be experienced through training - repeated, ongoing training at that.

4) Define what you mean by "Japan doesn't claim anything?" Claim in what sense? If my memory serves me correctly, Hatsumi was declared a national treasure, which implies acceptance and recognition if not blatant "claiming" of his teachings...

5) This point has me completely stumped! A Japanese museum that had plenty of things that an enterprising martial artist could claim as theirs??? Huh?

If you don't mind, can you also clarify where you study the art, under whom and what your experience is? I understand English may not be your first language and that may present a barrier when speaking on a forum such as this but some clarification would be appreciated. Thanks.

1. ninja wear or did wear hood/mask (we do)
2. any who train this art is good in it...otherwise your not really training more then your eyes..
3. there is more mystery to us then meets many eyes...
4. japan doesn't claim anything mr hatsumi has sold....
5. there was a Japanese museum since the 20's that had plenty of things that was visible by an "enterprising martial artist" to claim as theirs....

 

[Sukerkin]

:chuckles: Bot or Troll? Only time will tell.

 

[Supra Vijai]

:chuckles: Bot or Troll? Only time will tell.

Suke! Long time no chat my friend I'm still giving him the benefit of the doubt and saying just not a native English speaker. As you said, we shall see though! If nothing else, it keeps the forum ticking along

 

[Sukerkin]

:waves: Hi Vijai. I reckon as the poster has only posted the once that rules out being a Bot. Joking aside, I agree, benefit of the doubt, on whether the poster is a native English speaker or not, is the best policy until more evidence arises.