New article: How they hold the knife doesn't tell you if they know how to use it.

Discussion in 'Knife Arts' started by lklawson, Jun 18, 2013.

  1. elder999

    elder999 El Oso de Dios!

    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2005
    Messages:
    9,717
    Likes Received:
    1,299
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Where the hills have eyes.,and it's HOT!
    Can't really get to that leverage point without attacking, so the point is moot.....:rolleyes:

    .....not just a necro, but a necrofail![​IMG]
     
  2. Charlemagne

    Charlemagne Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2016
    Messages:
    691
    Likes Received:
    240
    Trophy Points:
    58
    Location:
    Texas, USA
    Not true. One can easily use an object such as a tactical flashlight, palm stick, or even another knife to get to that leverage point in a counter-offensive/defensive fashion. It certainly can be performed coming in if the person you are attacking is capable of protecting themselves from the proper angle of attack, but this is not the only way it can be done. This is particularly true if the person attacking you has bridging footwork and is able to close the distance with you faster than you are able to get out. This is hugely important, and one major reason that we work on the ability to keep long range and only close when we want to in PTK-SMF.

    Go to the 1 minute mark in the above video and switch the grip from sak sak (hammer) to pikal (ice pick) and you can execute that tap counter offensively and get the leverage being discussed above.

    Go to the 1:15 or so mark and you can see it done with empty hands, but again any object could be held in the pikal position to get the leverage he is referring to.
     
  3. elder999

    elder999 El Oso de Dios!

    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2005
    Messages:
    9,717
    Likes Received:
    1,299
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Where the hills have eyes.,and it's HOT!
    Still missing the point-the object has to be moved towards the person.....that's an "attack."
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. Charlemagne

    Charlemagne Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2016
    Messages:
    691
    Likes Received:
    240
    Trophy Points:
    58
    Location:
    Texas, USA
    No, I'm not missing the point. In a block, the object moves towards the person as well, and is executed for the purpose of self-protection. A knife tap, performed properly, is indeed an attack on the person's arm, but again, is performed for the purpose of self-protection. In other words, if you were not being attacked by someone, there would be no reason to perform the tap, or a block, in the first place.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. JP3

    JP3 Master Black Belt

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2015
    Messages:
    1,075
    Likes Received:
    517
    Trophy Points:
    303
    Location:
    Houston
    I would imagine there are as many ways to hold a knife and use it "correctly" as there are styles of knife-fighting, right?

    So, if you didn't know them all.... how would you know if the other guy is a novice or deadly-superior awesome in his personal skillset .... just because of how he holds one?
     
  6. Charlemagne

    Charlemagne Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2016
    Messages:
    691
    Likes Received:
    240
    Trophy Points:
    58
    Location:
    Texas, USA
    If you stop and think about it, a knife has a blade and a handle. That blade can be protruding from the thumb and forefinger side of the hand, ala a hammer grip, referred to in FMA as sak sak;
    [​IMG]

    or it can be held with the blade protruding from the pinky finger side of the hand, as in an ice pick grip, referred to in FMA as pikal.
    [​IMG]

    From there, the blade can be facing forward or backwards, and I have never seen anyone hold the blade facing up in a hammer grip, so regardless of the fact that it can be done, it really isn't a commonly used grip in martial arts which emphasize the knife. So that makes three grips there.

    If you add a variation, such as a sabre grip, then you have a legit four options.
    [​IMG]


    There are also things such as "pinch grips", but they are really used by chefs, not in martial arts.
    [​IMG]

    Even if we take stylistic variations into account, we see that they are really just variations on a theme.
    [​IMG]


    The knife is not a complicated piece of machinery, and as such, there really only a few legitimate ways of holding it for martial purposes.
     
  7. elder999

    elder999 El Oso de Dios!

    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2005
    Messages:
    9,717
    Likes Received:
    1,299
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Where the hills have eyes.,and it's HOT!
    You'll die.
    :rolleyes:
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Dislike Dislike x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. Juany118

    Juany118 Senior Master

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    May 22, 2016
    Messages:
    3,114
    Likes Received:
    1,045
    Trophy Points:
    213
    Maybe it's the WC in me but I see trapping and control like that as more a "defense" maneuver that opens for an attack.
     
  9. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2006
    Messages:
    25,318
    Likes Received:
    3,870
    Trophy Points:
    308
    Location:
    England
    knife.png
     
    • Like Like x 3
  10. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

    • Advisor
    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2005
    Messages:
    3,584
    Likes Received:
    797
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Huber Heights, OH
    In a classic Sabre Grip, the index finger, indeed all fingers, would be behind the guard. A lot of Classical Fencers I know would be having a fit over it. :) This type of grip is intended to allow dexterous movement from the wrist and gains its name from the dueling sabres known for protective shell guards.

    With a knife as short as in the picture, it kinda doesn't matter if the index finger is in front of the guard because there's not enough blade for blade-to-blade parries, but as the size of the blade grows, the less sense it makes to have the index finger in front of the guard.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. BLACK

    BLACK White Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2016
    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Location:
    SAN DIEGO
    Speaking on knives and not sabers, and swords....
    I was hacked by Torin Hill, who opened my eyes pretty wide to the mistakes I had been making for years with my grip and many misconceptions I had about using a blade to disable a threat.
    Now this is strictly for me as I am not here to tell anyone how to be themselves nor am I here to knock anyone's prowess...but for me the reverse grip is useless if the blade is toward the threat because all the leverage that makes the blade useful is lost when you push...you want to do a pull up on it, not push away. It is an intimate device that requires bad breath distances to maintain its effectiveness so you want to pull the threat in. I also learned to make a fist on it and not leave the thumb along the spine or anywhere else other than in a fist because leverage can easily be applied so the knife is lost and the tool becomes useless.
    I only use the forward hammer grip and the reverse grip with the blade towards me and the blade is always gripped with a full fist... because in my experience this has been the only effective way to insure I can address the threat properly and not fight an uphill battle on an extremely slippery source.

    Also, I don't believe in such things as knife fighting...it is an ambush tool first and foremost and the end user is either cutting or getting cut or both. There is no duel, no dance none of that glamorous BS... just an ugly, dirty, messy ambush that most often takes pieces of all parties involved in some way shape or form.

    I would also like to see how most of the grips out there stack up to the dish soap test.
    Lather the hand in dish soap and lightly wet it to simulate bodily fluid and attempt the "techniques" with the various grips and see what happens... lots of grips fly out the window along with lots of techniques and lots of different knife styles.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2016
  12. elder999

    elder999 El Oso de Dios!

    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2005
    Messages:
    9,717
    Likes Received:
    1,299
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Where the hills have eyes.,and it's HOT!
    We used motor oil....
     
  13. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

    • Advisor
    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2005
    Messages:
    3,584
    Likes Received:
    797
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Huber Heights, OH
    No offense, but that's a terrible simulator for blood or sweat.

    Why bother? Both blood and sweat are easy to get. Slightly salty water slightly damping the hand will do sweat and a trip to the meat counter and a cheap steak will get you the blood.

    Using actual lubricants gives an unrealistic result. There's a reason that all those various grips were historically used and survived. If they were as vulnerable to slipping around as your test would imply, they wouldn't have been employed.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  14. elder999

    elder999 El Oso de Dios!

    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2005
    Messages:
    9,717
    Likes Received:
    1,299
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Where the hills have eyes.,and it's HOT!
    Two things really-if you can hold onto a knife with oil on your hands, you can hold onto one with blood..until the blood dries and is less of a problem.

    Oil doesn't dry-makes it more suitable for prolonged training.

    The other being that it isn't actually blood-in Asian Buddhist and Muslim traditions, oil is used as obtaining blood is frowned upon (Buddhist) and "playing" with blood is forbidden (Muslim).....
     
  15. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    15,128
    Likes Received:
    3,249
    Trophy Points:
    308
    If praying to the sun god didn't make the crops grow. Then people wouldn't have done it?
     
  16. Red Sun

    Red Sun Green Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2016
    Messages:
    159
    Likes Received:
    41
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Australia





    These guys didn't seem to get the memo :p
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

    • Advisor
    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2005
    Messages:
    3,584
    Likes Received:
    797
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Huber Heights, OH
    Non sequitur.
     
  18. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

    • Advisor
    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2005
    Messages:
    3,584
    Likes Received:
    797
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Huber Heights, OH
    Yes, I understand the premise. I'm not denying that. What I'm suggesting is that this is a worst-case which happens so rarely that it allows the other grips in question to remain viable.

    Fascinating. Thank you for including social perspectives. I've long maintained that all martial arts, including knife arts, evolve in the context of their environment which includes social restrictions.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
  19. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

    • Advisor
    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2005
    Messages:
    3,584
    Likes Received:
    797
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Huber Heights, OH
    Improvised weapons, ice-pick grips, off-hand arms wrapped with coats and used to defend/parry/whip, an umbrella and a stick, use of environmental barriers, in-and-out movements, both committed attacks and probing attacks, strikingly few intercepting/disarming/"defanging" techniques...

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
    • Like Like x 1

Share This Page