National classification of MMA

[Xue Sheng]

Please do not make this a my art vs. your art kind of thing that is not what I am after here and if that is what you want make another post of your own.

Also if this is a hotly contested topic my apologies I had no idea.

I was thinking today how would you classify MMA?
Meaning by nationality or is it not possible to classify it just by its nature of being a mixed martial art.

The Combination of BJJ which is obviously Brazilian and Muay Thai which is Thai would say it has no national classification but where was it combined and where did MMA first appear was it in the USA and would that then make it an American marital art or is it from shoot fighting which is not American?

I am just curios about this and I was wondering what others thought.

 

[jks9199]

I would consider MMA eclectic, and not tied to any one nation, like boxing. One of the things that bugs me about several MMA commentators is the way the describe any grappling/groundwork as "jujitsu", and a lot of the stand up striking -- especially anything involving clinches or knees/elbows, as "muay thai" with no regard to the fighters training. How about, if it's involving holds, it's grappling or groundwork (if they're on the ground), if it's on their feet and punching/kicking/etc., it's striking? What if the fighter never ever trained in jujitsu of any sort?

 

[Steve]

I would consider MMA eclectic, and not tied to any one nation, like boxing. One of the things that bugs me about several MMA commentators is the way the describe any grappling/groundwork as "jujitsu", and a lot of the stand up striking -- especially anything involving clinches or knees/elbows, as "muay thai" with no regard to the fighters training. How about, if it's involving holds, it's grappling or groundwork (if they're on the ground), if it's on their feet and punching/kicking/etc., it's striking? What if the fighter never ever trained in jujitsu of any sort?

For what it's worth, there is usually a clear distinction on the ground between wrestling skills and jiu-jitsu skills. Right or wrong.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Thanks

But I would prefer if this does not degrade into some sort of argument. I am really only interested in what nationality it would be thought of as and if it has none that is fine, but I guess I am also interested in its actual origin but I am hesitant to ask origins of any MA these days since that generally ends up an argument

I am only really interested in the nationality or lack of nationality of it.

As example JKD is sometimes said to have no national identity or it is American or it is Chinese. I personally think it is more Chinese only because of its root of Wing Chun and it founder being Chinese but I am not sure.

I have thought MMA was American but today as I thought of it I found I was not even all that clear on its origin but I have heard of some of the styles that were combined or successfully used in MMA but I still am left with where does it come from and what is its national identity if it in fact has one.

 

[Svart]

I do not follow MMA, only watch the occasional match so I do not know that many details. I've always associated it with the USA though.

 

[Big Don]

Interesting idea.

 

[Xue Sheng]

As I was thinking about this more last night I think it may be possible to say it is a western Martial art but that is as far as I seem to be able to get it

 

[theletch1]

I don't think you could really even narrow it down to a western art. It has aspects of so many eastern arts (even BJJ traces it's roots back to the east) that you'd be off a little. I think you'd first have to define, specifically, what it is that makes MMA MMA. After that you'd have to break down the individual arts involved and figure out how and when and where they were combined to become MMA.

MMA is the UN of martial arts, I guess!

 

[MJS]

Please do not make this a my art vs. your art kind of thing that is not what I am after here and if that is what you want make another post of your own.

Also if this is a hotly contested topic my apologies I had no idea.

I was thinking today how would you classify MMA?
Meaning by nationality or is it not possible to classify it just by its nature of being a mixed martial art.

The Combination of BJJ which is obviously Brazilian and Muay Thai which is Thai would say it has no national classification but where was it combined and where did MMA first appear was it in the USA and would that then make it an American marital art or is it from shoot fighting which is not American?

I am just curios about this and I was wondering what others thought.

Nice thread! :ultracool I'd say that its a mix of a number of things. If we look at the arts that are usually studied by MMA fighters, we see BJJ, Wrestling, Boxing, and some Thai Boxing. So you could pretty much form what it is from that. Brazilian, Thai, American.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Here is my thinking on this as to why I think it is western.

Brazilian jujitsu is from Judo which is Japanese but it is still said to be Brazilian because it comes form the Gracies that are form Brazil. Multiple Japanese arts have a direct link to Japanese arts but are still called Japanese. Sanshou came from a study of multiple styles of various countries including china and it is made up of mostly CMA but there are other influences and it is still Chinese

MMA by nature is a conglomerate of styles from various countries but yet it is still not any of those styles but where they were combined is what I feel is more to where it is from or who its from than what it is made up of. And it is my understanding that this combination happened in the west (please if I am wrong feel free to correct me – I am going on pure speculation here). If there was one distinctive art that was obviously the root style it would be easier to classify but there isn't really 1 root style.

This is why I think it is Western, but in reality it doesn’t much matter where it is from I am just in one of my curious over thinking things moods I guess.

 

[Steve]

I would say that there are several successful flavors of MMA. Shooto is very Japanese, IMO. Vale Tudo is very Brazilian. Pankration is... well, sort of Greek. It's got Greek roots, but the revival is actually kind of Northern European, spearheaded by guys like Bas Rutten.

The specific combination of BJJ, Muay Thai and Wrestling is very American, IMO, even though the various arts are multi-national.

 

[FearlessFreep]

Just an opinion

MMA is not a combination of arts, but a combination of techniques. Those techniques come from multiple arts. While some techniques are known primarily for a given art, they are usually found in several arts. (how may arts have punches...how many of roundhouse kicks..how many use knees and elbows?)

MMA just takes certain techniques and applies them in certain effective ways for their goals of the MMAist. As such , you cannot narrow MMA down to a certain nationality because you cannot narrow down a certain (set of) technique(s) to a certain nationality.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Just an opinion

MMA is not a combination of arts, but a combination of techniques. Those techniques come from multiple arts. While some techniques are known primarily for a given art, they are usually found in several arts. (how may arts have punches...how many of roundhouse kicks..how many use knees and elbows?)

MMA just takes certain techniques and applies them in certain effective ways for their goals of the MMAist. As such , you cannot narrow MMA down to a certain nationality because you cannot narrow down a certain (set of) technique(s) to a certain nationality.

I agree completely at the beginning and then I am not sure I agree at the end.

All arts are made up of techniques and many of those arts have techniques form other arts. I know little about Krava Maga but it is made up of techniques and I would not doubt those can be found in other arts and the same can be said of Sambo. All arts take those techniques and combine them into styles that can be classified (generally) into a nationality. Sanda is one of those and it is most certainly Chinese.

Now it is very likely due to the wide array of arts that have been used to make up MMA that it would be incredibly difficult you figure out or get enough to agree where MMA would be form. And it could also be that MMA is simply to new to be classified as such but I am still thinking it is more western. But again I am not anywhere near as sure of that as I am in what you said originally about MMA being a combination of techniques.

It could also be that no one cares except this crazy old CMA guy

 

[jarrod]

in my opinion, modern mma is a (largely) western SPORT but not a martial art. i don't say this because i don't respect mma, but because i think that it is a mistake to approach mma as a style unto itself. an athlete who studies muay thai & jujitsu may compete in mma, but he is still training in eastern styles. very few techniques were developed by/for mma specifically. you could argue that ground & pound is pure mma, but that is really just the application of techniques developed in various grappling systems.

just my thoughts,

jf

 

[Xue Sheng]

I would say that there are several successful flavors of MMA. Shooto is very Japanese, IMO. Vale Tudo is very Brazilian. Pankration is... well, sort of Greek. It's got Greek roots, but the revival is actually kind of Northern European, spearheaded by guys like Bas Rutten.

The specific combination of BJJ, Muay Thai and Wrestling is very American, IMO, even though the various arts are multi-national.

This I did not know.

I was of the understanding that shoot fighting was somewhat of a precursor of what we now call MMA. And I am not sure I would consider Pankration MMA at all but then when I think Pankration I think Ancient Greece and I was not aware there was a revival of it. And I never thought of Vale Tudo or Bas Rutten but then I know absolutely nothing about Vale Tudo or Bas Rutten so I will have to look those up.

And I guess the part about combining parts of Muay Thai and BJJ to come up with MMA is where I am getting the "I think it is western" thought from.

Thanks

 

[Xue Sheng]

in my opinion, modern mma is a (largely) western SPORT but not a martial art. i don't say this because i don't respect mma, but because i think that it is a mistake to approach mma as a style unto itself. an athlete who studies muay thai & jujitsu may compete in mma, but he is still training in eastern styles. very few techniques were developed by/for mma specifically. you could argue that ground & pound is pure mma, but that is really just the application of techniques developed in various grappling systems.

just my thoughts,

jf

Currently I tend to agree that it is western but I also will admit I am standing on shaky ground with that thought at the moment, particularly since stevebjj's post.

But many MA styles start the same way where a technique was not developed specifically for that style

Judo came from Jujitsu and Brazilian Jujitsu came from Judo.

Sanda/Sanshou comes from a lot of CMA styles with a few non-CMA thrown in

Taijiquan Yang came from Chen and Wu came form Yang.

Yiquan came form Xingyiquan and a few other CMA styles.

And if you are talking strictly CMA (and you have to know I will since it is what I do) there are a lot of borrowed techniques between styles. How many train styles Zhan Zhuang, how many have animal styles. I am also pretty sure you will run into the same thing in Japan as well and in Japan you also run into those things taken form China.

But it could be that you are on to something here and that MMA is simply to new to actually be classified as a specific style at this time.

 

[bowser666]

As far as I am concerned since their has been mankind and since their has been war and conflict , there has been MMA. It was called COMBAT back then. Typically if you practice COMBAT arts from multiple schools of training , then by definition, it is MMA. MMA is just the modern day Catch phrase. Trying to trace the roots of MMA is like trying to trace the roots of MA in general.