Naihanchi.

[Kempojujutsu]

I was reviewing a tape that I had trade with one of are martialtalk members. The tape is of Bruce Juchnik, who is with Kosho Ryu Kempo. In this tape he talks about Mitose taught him the Naihanchi kata. He also refers to it as Naihando kata. To say the lease this is a very bad version of the kata. He looks like a white belt that has just learn it in about 5 minutes. Most of the time is spent on talking about timing and how to move to evade the in coming attack. Punches are thrown from around the 5 to 6 foot range with a step though punch. He also talks about the Naihanchi kata being up against a wall or narrow passage. First of all I don't want to step on any toes. But know one throws a punch from 5 to 6 feet out away from there attacker. Unless he/she is drunk or have lost their eye glasses. When I punch someone I am around a foot away. Second I know for a fact you are not against a wall fighting one attacker or multipal attackers. Fighting against a wall would limited you from evading, one of the things he talks about. My instrutor told me there are no blocks in this kata, they are either strikes and or joint locks. I believe the wall thing is a major misconceptions many martial artist are taught.
Bob :asian:

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

I was reviewing a tape that I had trade with one of are martialtalk members. The tape is of Bruce Juchnik, who is with Kosho Ryu Kempo. In this tape he talks about Mitose taught him the Naihanchi kata. He also refers to it as Naihando kata. To say the lease this is a very bad version of the kata. He looks like a white belt that has just learn it in about 5 minutes. Most of the time is spent on talking about timing and how to move to evade the in coming attack. Punches are thrown from around the 5 to 6 foot range with a step though punch. He also talks about the Naihanchi kata being up against a wall or narrow passage. First of all I don't want to step on any toes. But know one throws a punch from 5 to 6 feet out away from there attacker. Unless he/she is drunk or have lost their eye glasses. When I punch someone I am around a foot away. Second I know for a fact you are not against a wall fighting one attacker or multipal attackers. Fighting against a wall would limited you from evading, one of the things he talks about. My instrutor told me there are no blocks in this kata, they are either strikes and or joint locks. I believe the wall thing is a major misconceptions many martial artist are taught.
Bob :asian:

I don't wish to step on any toes, and usually I will stay silent, rather than upset people. That is just my way of doing things, here I must say, Mitose's version of Kenpo or Kempo was to say the least extremely questionable. Already in this thread, our suspended comrade has commented on the fallacies relating to the 2 dimensional nature of Naihanchi.
Also as much as he does not appear to like George Dillman, his take on the subject of moving along walls and tight spaces, would appear to be very similar.
If you want to see some stuff that will make you question the quality of the stuff that Mitose taught, have a look at the web pages of some of the higher American Kenpo instructors, or even on Kenponet, I think.
Mr. Jutnick was a guard at the prison where Mitose was being held, and where he died. Now theres some quality training for you....
No blocks in this kata? As in any of the traditional kata, what would seem to be blocks to the untrained become pressure point and grappling techniques, to those that know. Sometimes all you have to do is get your opponent/ partner to assume positions of submission as you do your kata around them. Sometimes you need to check with the people that know the kata from having done it over 1000 times. Sometimes even they don't know......

:asian:
--Dave

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by D.Cobb

If you want to see some stuff that will make you question the quality of the stuff that Mitose taught, have a look at the web pages of some of the higher American Kenpo instructors, or even on Kenponet, I think.

Do you mean all of Kenpo or just some of the instructors who were less influenced by Ed parker and more influenced by Mr. Mitose?

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by arnisador



Do you mean all of Kenpo or just some of the instructors who were less influenced by Ed parker and more influenced by Mr. Mitose?

Oh poop!!!!

You know I just realized that it looks like I'm saying American Kenpo looks bad. That is definately not the case. What I meant was that some of the seniors (first generation) do talk about Mitose and some of what they saw when he tried to link up with Ed Parker, in I think it was the early '60s. I was trying to say, that for more information about the quality of Mitose's stuff, some of the first generation guys might make mention on their web pages.
Also another place you can look, that I know for certain is somewhere on the "net" is an interview with Huk Planas. In this interview, he talks of being shown a "secret technique", with laughable results.
To any of the American Kenpo guys who may have taken offense by what it appeared I had said, I apologize deeply. My original system of martial arts was American Kenpo. Originally Tracy, but then our instructor changed to EPAK. The last thing I would do is badmouth that system in anyway.

I must have been half asleep when I wrote that, it was late.
Again, Sorry.
--Dave

:asian:

And now some how I have ended up with three messages for the price of one. Wahoo, bring on my next belt promotion.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by D.Cobb

And now some how I have ended up with three messages for the price of one.

No problem--I'll delete the extras.

-Arnisador
-MT Mod-

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by arnisador



No problem--I'll delete the extras.

-Arnisador
-MT Mod-

Darn it, I was sooooo looking forward to my next belt.:rofl:

--Dave

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by D.Cobb

Darn it, I was sooooo looking forward to my next belt.

When you can snatch this pebble from my hand!

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by arnisador



When you can snatch this pebble from my hand!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Now that's funny!!
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

 

[chufeng]

Naihanchi a basic kata????

NOT

I did not read this entire thread, but I was priveleged to work with Oyata Sensei on two occasions (even though my primary focus is on Chinese arts) and he hurt everyone, every-which-way, with the simplest movements from Naihanchi Shodan...

Many nerve points...
Many hidden strikes...

ouch !!!

:asian:
chufeng

 

[Matt Stone]

I am training with one of Taika Oyata's students, and I will verify what Chufeng said...

Naihanchi Shodan is not a basic kata at all...

Lots of really cool stuff in it.

And it isn't meant for fighting side to side on the levy between rice paddies...

 

[Matt Stone]

I know it has been mentioned before, but it bears mentioning again...

While some folks think of some forms as "basic" and other forms as "advanced," it needs to be borne in mind that once upon a time folks only ever learned a small handful of forms - not the great gargantuan collections of forms that are so common these days, but only one or two or three... That form or those forms formed the basis of your entire style, as opposed to having a bazillion forms, few (if any) of which you would ever come close to mastering...

Just a thought.

In Yiliquan we have over 20 forms total (including weapons and empty hand forms), but I have to admit that, while I am required to know 14 - 16 of them at this point in the game, I can only actually do maybe 8 - 10 of them on command, and of those there are only maybe 2- 4 of them I can really say I am almost getting a handle on (in terms of knowing the breakdowns, etc.)...

How about the rest of you? Or does that question deserve it's own thread...?

Gambarimasu.

:samurai: :tank: :samurai:

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

Or does that question deserve it's own thread...?

Maybe! See also this thread:
http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=516

 

[DKI Girl]

Yiliquan1,

I agree with you about the number of katas these days....I have always heard that the old masters would tell their students that you would have to study ONE kata for many years before learning the true meaning behind it.

Now, when I first started learning kata, I thought...yeah right, but now that I have been learning the meaning behind my katas, it makes so much more sense.

I think that all katas can be used as a basic or advanced kata....it all depends on what you learn or teach will depend on the level that the kata becomes for that lesson.

dki girl

 

[Matt Stone]

I think the "study one kata for years" statement still applies... Regardless of the quantity of forms a style contains or a person is capable of performing, there is still going to be that necessary apprenticeship that will allow them to dissect the form into its many permutations, and do so enough times to actually enable the student to say that they "know" the form instead of simply being able to hop about mimicking the movements of the form...

When I first started learning forms, I had absolutely no idea that they would end up being as complex as they are... I figured that sure, there were some cool "hidden" things in them, but that a set of techniques was a set of techniques, period.

Boy was I wrong!

My favorite form currently is our beginning form - Di Yi Guan Nien ("First Idea"). I started working the form at a different angle of application than is obvious in the forms "normal" practice, and found tons of stuff I didn't know were there - throws, sweeps, joint locks, etc.

I just learned Naihanchi Shodan the other day, and I figure that once I can actually go through it without having to try to remember what comes next, it will provide me with decades of material to play with.

Gambarimasu.

:samurai: :tank: :samurai:

 

[DKI Girl]

Oh yes....Naihanchi Shodan contains so much information!!! I have been working with that kata for about 2 years and it still amazes me when I learn something new out of it.

Coincidentally that is the first kata we teach our students. And they always bring new ideas into the open with their open minds.

dkigirl

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by DKI Girl

Oh yes....Naihanchi Shodan contains so much information!!! I have been working with that kata for about 2 years and it still amazes me when I learn something new out of it.

dkigirl

I have been working on that kata for over 20 years and still learn from it.

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by DKI Girl

Oh yes....Naihanchi Shodan contains so much information!!! I have been working with that kata for about 2 years and it still amazes me when I learn something new out of it.

Coincidentally that is the first kata we teach our students. And they always bring new ideas into the open with their open minds.

dkigirl

So you have been doing DKI for two years? What grade are you, kyu or dan?

Just curious.

I enjoy the feel of Naihanchi. It has an interesting flavor to it, after years of doing Chinese forms...

 

[chufeng]

Like fava beans and a nice Chianti ?

chufeng

 

[DKI Girl]

I have actually been with DKI since 1999, but have been seriously working with Naihanchi Shodan for about two years.

I previously trained in Mastubayashi Shorin ryu for several years prior to joining DKI....I currently hold a Nidan in Ryukyu Kempo.

dkigirl

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by chufeng

Like fava beans and a nice Chianti ?

chufeng

More like cold beer and raw salmon, with cold soba and wasabi on the side...

:asian:

I have been here too long... Do they have restaurants in Seattle where I can get cold soba with wasabi in the summer time? A plate of yakiniku, some pickled daikon and udon in the winter?

I am going to miss Japan...

Gambarimasu.