Naihanchi Hyung/Kata Origins?

[glad2bhere]

I don't know if this will help but that last comment sent me running for a copy of OKINAWAN KEMPO by Choki Motobu. Originally published in May of 1926 the copy I have is copyrighted by Seiyu Oyata in 1977.

In this particular book Motobu states that "There have been numerous styles in Karate..... among those styles (kata) which have been used in Ryukyu from ancient days are {goes on to list names of 12 kata}....... especially the three styles of Naihanchi, Passai (great and small) and KuShanKu are very widely know to islanders........however the Nai-hanchi, Passai, Chinto and Rohai are not left in China today, and remain only in Okinawa as martial arts."

Now the reason I took the time to type this in is because later Motobu comments that "as to Pinan (5 katas) the modern time warrior Mr. Itosu originated this style to use as teaching material for his students."

My sense is that if the Nai-hanchi had been originated in Okinawa by Itosu either in part or in whole, or by Matsumura for that matter, Motobu would have commented something to this effect like he did about the Pinan. As I said before there is still a form supposedly practiced in Taiwan that looks like Naihanchi so I suggest that maybe we are looking at something of an artifact left over from an early time in China and now only remaining in Okinawan practice. For what its worth....

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[RRouuselot]

i think the second kanji in other ways of writing it translates to the word claw. so it's indicative of the kamae used in the kata. it would be like holding your knees in (a la sanchin) while gripping the ground with your toes. i could be way off.........what do you think robert?
as far as all the pressure point hooey......i guess people can dream up all kinds of stuff.

Oh ya...I forgot aobut that one....... make that 3 variations.

 

[RRouuselot]

I don't know if this will help but that last comment sent me running for a copy of OKINAWAN KEMPO by Choki Motobu. Originally published in May of 1926 the copy I have is copyrighted by Seiyu Oyata in 1977.

In this particular book Motobu states that "There have been numerous styles in Karate..... among those styles (kata) which have been used in Ryukyu from ancient days are {goes on to list names of 12 kata}....... especially the three styles of Naihanchi, Passai (great and small) and KuShanKu are very widely know to islanders........however the Nai-hanchi, Passai, Chinto and Rohai are not left in China today, and remain only in Okinawa as martial arts."

Now the reason I took the time to type this in is because later Motobu comments that "as to Pinan (5 katas) the modern time warrior Mr. Itosu originated this style to use as teaching material for his students."

My sense is that if the Nai-hanchi had been originated in Okinawa by Itosu either in part or in whole, or by Matsumura for that matter, Motobu would have commented something to this effect like he did about the Pinan. As I said before there is still a form supposedly practiced in Taiwan that looks like Naihanchi so I suggest that maybe we are looking at something of an artifact left over from an early time in China and now only remaining in Okinawan practice. For what its worth....

Best Wishes,

Bruce

I lived and trained in Taiwan for 3 years and didn't see any Naihanchi kata (unless I was the one doing it). However that doesn't mean there isn't something similar. I saw a LOT of shing yi that looked like Okinawan karate though. I did see some drills that look like they could be related to Naihanchi.

 

[Makalakumu]

I see a lot of different styles represented on this thread. It would be interesting to compare our understand of the applications for these forms. What are the general keys that you use to understand the application of these forms?

My teacher taught the following...

1. Applications take place inline with the form AND at 45 degree angles from that line.
2. There are striking applications. There are grappling applications. And there are applications that mix both.
3. This form shows the location of some pressure points.

upnorthkyosa

 

[RRouuselot]

I see a lot of different styles represented on this thread. It would be interesting to compare our understand of the applications for these forms. What are the general keys that you use to understand the application of these forms?

My teacher taught the following...

1. Applications take place inline with the form AND at 45 degree angles from that line.
2. There are striking applications. There are grappling applications. And there are applications that mix both.
3. This form shows the location of some pressure points.

upnorthkyosa

1)This is a common misconception. In real life an attack is unpredictable and can come from any direction, therefore the defense most be able to respond likewise. To say the defense should be this angle or that is limiting and unrealistic. Naihanchi, as well as all other kata, is no different, and you should be able respond using technique from the kata accordingly.

2)This depends on what level you are at in training. At higher levels striking and grappling are rarely separated. The strikes can be stuns or full force depending on the need.

3)Unfortunately some folks have over emphasized pressure points and think everything is a “KO”. This is not only grossly immature thinking but impractical and comes from lack of serious study and training not to mention laziness. All this “color by numbers kyusho” stuff like hit ST9 and GB20 is Bullshhhh….anyway, anyway it’s nonsense made up by people untrained in TCM. Here is an interesting thing….ALL kata can show pressure points to some degree or another. Another interesting thing…..not all pressure points shown are “KOs”…..in fact few are. Kata shows where you are hitting or it can show where you are being hit (and how to defend against it), it can show where to grab or where you are being grabbed (and how to defend against it).

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Robert:

"....Here is an interesting thing….ALL kata can show pressure points to some degree or another. Another interesting thing…..not all pressure points shown are “KOs”…..in fact few are. Kata shows where you are hitting or it can show where you are being hit (and how to defend against it), it can show where to grab or where you are being grabbed (and how to defend against it)...."

Major truth there!

In Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido we have 36 PP (give or take) and 46 strike points. The pressure points fall into either debilitating or facilitative. Debilitating impacts the neuromuscular system so as to impair the persons' ability to respond. Think of getting poked in the eye. Facilitative (aka manipulative) takes an effective technique and raises its efficacy by performing the technique while stimulating points at the same time. The elbow has at least 6 of these little dandies. Nothing exotic, or mystical--- just an understanding of where various structures under the skin intersect, thats all.

But I have yet to run into the appropriate combination that gets a person to go catatonic like in the "chop-socky" movies. :uhyeah:

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[RRouuselot]

Dear Robert:

"....Here is an interesting thing….ALL kata can show pressure points to some degree or another. Another interesting thing…..not all pressure points shown are “KOs”…..in fact few are. Kata shows where you are hitting or it can show where you are being hit (and how to defend against it), it can show where to grab or where you are being grabbed (and how to defend against it)...."

Major truth there!

In Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido we have 36 PP (give or take) and 46 strike points. The pressure points fall into either debilitating or facilitative. Debilitating impacts the neuromuscular system so as to impair the persons' ability to respond. Think of getting poked in the eye. Facilitative (aka manipulative) takes an effective technique and raises its efficacy by performing the technique while stimulating points at the same time. The elbow has at least 6 of these little dandies. Nothing exotic, or mystical--- just an understanding of where various structures under the skin intersect, thats all.

But I have yet to run into the appropriate combination that gets a person to go catatonic like in the "chop-socky" movies. :uhyeah:

Best Wishes,

Bruce

I like to think of anywhere I hit is a pressure point……if it wasn’t one before I will MAKE it one.

We are in agreement on the striking of facilitative and manipulative areas. Striking some places just give your techniques a nice “juice” that makes them easier to execute. My teacher has done a kind of tuite on me where he strikes the same place he is going to do the tuite technique….he strikes and does the tuite at the same time. Talk about pain!
I think people try to make pressure points more complicated and “mystical” than they really are. Specifically all the “color by numbers kyusho” crap. “color by numbers kyusho” really impresses uninitiated people with all it’s complex and “exotic” sounding principles and gives that over all “chop socky” feeling that some people enjoy…..kind of like “pate de Fuqua” (sp?) sounds pretty cool if you don’t speak French or know what it is…..but in reality it’s just ground up goose liver.

A basic concept to consider when training……..if it hurts they will go down…..if it doesn’t they won’t. Or as my teachers says: “no hurt no down”

 

[Makalakumu]

1)This is a common misconception. In real life an attack is unpredictable and can come from any direction, therefore the defense most be able to respond likewise. To say the defense should be this angle or that is limiting and unrealistic. Naihanchi, as well as all other kata, is no different, and you should be able respond using technique from the kata accordingly.

I read this part of your post and immediately went down to the dojang break down naihanchi again. That is why it took so long for me to reply... :asian:

When my teacher taught about the direction in application, it was such a powerful learning tool. When I went down and practiced some applications at 45 degree angles to the general movement of the form, I felt like my understanding of the kata was really clicking along. I had a hard time trying to figure out applications for the techniques from attacks in all directions though...and maybe this just reflects my limited understanding of the kata.

I understand what you are saying regarding the unpredictability of defense, yet I think that with kata training and, especially with naihanchi, some of the directions of applications are rather obvious. Moreover, trying to make some of the techniques work from all directions, didn't seem to work too well.

Any thoughts on that?

2)This depends on what level you are at in training. At higher levels striking and grappling are rarely separated. The strikes can be stuns or full force depending on the need.

I'm thinking of a number of applications in naihanchi cho dan that fit this bill. Wow, I love that kata!

3)Unfortunately some folks have over emphasized pressure points and think everything is a “KO”. This is not only grossly immature thinking but impractical and comes from lack of serious study and training not to mention laziness. All this “color by numbers kyusho” stuff like hit ST9 and GB20 is Bullshhhh….anyway, anyway it’s nonsense made up by people untrained in TCM.

There is no "one size fits all" self defense. Kyusho is no different. I've always had a hard time with pp strikes. During randori, I haven't had much success unless the difference in skill level was great. I prefer simple strikes that lead into other techniques like chokes much better. I do believe that if I trained pp strikes more, they would be more effective. The key questions is HOW. I'm getting tired of the lousy information out there on the subject.

Here is an interesting thing….ALL kata can show pressure points to some degree or another. Another interesting thing…..not all pressure points shown are “KOs”…..in fact few are. Kata shows where you are hitting or it can show where you are being hit (and how to defend against it), it can show where to grab or where you are being grabbed (and how to defend against it).

My teacher says the exact same thing. :asian:

 

[BlackCatBonz]

too many people practice naihanchi with attacks coming straight in or from a 45 degree angle simply because they think that it is what the kata was intended to defend against. the problem with approaching the kata breakdown with this attitude is that it highly limits what you can apply with the movements from the kata. another thing that i personally feel is wrong is the practice of taking a particular sequence of movements and using them verbatim in application. the best practice for me is to take a minute section of the kata and break it down as it applies to 1. escape or evasion 2. striking 3. grappling (throwing and locking). leave the whole PP thing alone for the time being and simply focus on what movements and mechanics the body is teaching you.
use the small portions of the kata with attacks from all angles, but dont fall into the trap of using the sequence with no variation. just because a hand happens to be chambered doesnt mean that hand isnt being used for something.

 

[RRouuselot]

I read this part of your post and immediately went down to the dojang break down naihanchi again. That is why it took so long for me to reply... :asian:

When my teacher taught about the direction in application, it was such a powerful learning tool. When I went down and practiced some applications at 45 degree angles to the general movement of the form, I felt like my understanding of the kata was really clicking along. I had a hard time trying to figure out applications for the techniques from attacks in all directions though...and maybe this just reflects my limited understanding of the kata.

I understand what you are saying regarding the unpredictability of defense, yet I think that with kata training and, especially with naihanchi, some of the directions of applications are rather obvious. Moreover, trying to make some of the techniques work from all directions, didn't seem to work too well.

Any thoughts on that?

I am not saying the attack can’t come from straight on or 45 degrees. It’s actually difficult to convey via the internet.

Many tuite techniques that are in Naihanchi use footwork that may start going 45 degrees and then do almost 180 degrees…..that is one hell of a crank on the guys joint too by the way. I can’t post photos on this board for some reason so if anyone knows how let me and I will try to get some.

 

[glad2bhere]

".....There is no "one size fits all" self defense. Kyusho is no different. I've always had a hard time with pp strikes. During randori, I haven't had much success unless the difference in skill level was great. I prefer simple strikes that lead into other techniques like chokes much better. I do believe that if I trained pp strikes more, they would be more effective. The key questions is HOW. I'm getting tired of the lousy information out there on the subject...."

This is why a weapon is taught with each of the material associated with a dan rank in our kwan. For instance, it is not that one is going to use a soh bong (.5 inch by 6 in stick) so much as a weapon, though, of course it IS possible. The fact is that using the soh bong to train in thrusting techniques builds accuracy for identifying a specific spot for a pressure point. The same holds true for strike points and using a dan bong, and positions of disadvantage and using the cane. It all ties together. The current crop of pressure point folks need to back off to reality and understand that the typical warrior of one hundred years ago did not steep himself in arcane practices but sought to fight smarter, not harder. The return on learning 720 Accupuncture points to identify a handful of tried and true never fail points just wasn't in the cards. Still good stuff for chop/socky movies though, I suppose.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[RRouuselot]

Hopefully this will make sense so please bear with me.

Here is what I mean by not sticking strictly to the 45 degree or straight-line defense.

The above move in Naihanchi can be viewed as a strike, or several different kinds of strikes actually, and also a rear naked choke…..this one you have to kind of look at it from a different perspective. The bottom arm is going to go around the throat and the top arm will push the attackers head forward. In order to do this technique the defender would need to maneuver behind the attacker. Obviously he can’t go straight forward because the defender would be in the way. Therefore he must go around, or move the attacker around so he gets behind him.

In the above photo this technique can be seen as the beginning of an arm bar where Motobu has been punched at and pulled the attackers right fist/arm to his side and going to turn to his right in order to complete and arm bar with his left elbow, this technique has a kick to the knee that accompanies the rest of the technique.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

:asian: .