Naihanchi Hyung/Kata Origins?

[Makalakumu]

Where do these forms originate? Who created them? Why are there three?

These forms cross arts and that tells me that they are profound. Kwan Jang Hwan Kee's book is vague on the above questions. I learned a lot about them in my training, but I am seeking other points of view...

upnorthkyosa

 

[The Kai]

Haihanchi I've always heard was a old okinawan Kata. Why dos it move in a straight line? I've heard 3 different theories.

1.) Took place with back to wall
2.) Took place on a bridge
3.) Was practiced on the back of a boat
4.) Nobody knows for sure

Why is there 3 of them? I heard there was originaaly 1 long kata, and it was broken up to make it easier top learn
Todd

 

[rmclain]

The Naihanchi form were taught as the basic forms from Shuri-te in the past. Naihanchi I & II can be traced to Sokon "Bushi" Matsumura, who lived 1797-1889. But, I don't know if he created these forms or they came from someone else.

His student, Yasutsune Anko Itosu (1830-1915) is credited with creating Naihanchi #3.

These forms were taught in most Korean martial art schools following WWII.


R. McLain


Source:
Alexander, George W. Okinawa: Island of Karate. Lake Worth: Yamazato, 1991.

 

[ppko]

Naihanchi katas

originally they were all one kata
Naihanchi translates to points (Pressure Points) of Han Chi
It moves sideways to show how you go on your opponent, in other words you are not fighting sideways but rather showing how you opponent may turn or where you would go on your opponent to make these techniques work.

 

[Makalakumu]

Naihanchi translates to points (Pressure Points) of Han Chi.

Who was Han Chi? When did he live? Where?

Thanks for you answers...

upnorthkyosa

 

[ppko]

I am not sure who Han Chi was other than I believe he was Chinese this is probably the closest that you will find to the true history of Naihanchi

http://www.ryukyukempo.com/lineage.html

 

[Andrew Green]

The thing about origins of classical kata is that there is so many myths to choose from, chances are none are really "accurate"

Where it originally came from is unknown, what it means is unknown.

Anko Ituso added the second two, but the first ones origin is a bit of a mystery. There are of course many theories/stories, maybe one of them is right, but then again maybe not.

 

[Makalakumu]

The thing about origins of classical kata is that there is so many myths to choose from, chances are none are really "accurate"

Where it originally came from is unknown, what it means is unknown.

Anko Ituso added the second two, but the first ones origin is a bit of a mystery. There are of course many theories/stories, maybe one of them is right, but then again maybe not.

Sorting through the myth and the fact has become important to me as I progress to the higher ranks in my art. The Okinawan kata are particularly interesting because they are so widespread through so many arts. Also, the amount of controversy surrounding them, given the politics of the different arts, happens to be great.

All right, here is another couple of questions...

1. Is Anko Itosu the same Itosu that added kata to the pyung ahn/pinan/heien (all these are basically the same) set?

2. Who did Mr. Itosu train with?

3. Do the second and third naihanchi kata have the same depth of pressure point knowledge in them as the first?

4. Do the pyung ahn/pinan/heien kata contain pressure point knowledge?

upnorthkyosa

 

[rmclain]

Yes, Anko Itosu created the Pinan/Heian/Pyung Ahn forms around the year 1900 as beginner-intermediate forms.

Itosu's teacher was Sokon Matsumura and Kosaku Matsumura (Tomari-te). Both were students of Tode Sakugawa.


"3. Do the second and third naihanchi kata have the same depth of pressure point knowledge in them as the first?"

I believe that any of this "pressure point knowledge" and any form technique interpretation depends on the teacher and how the knowledge is preserved. Same for the pyung ahn/heian/pinan forms.

All of the sources I've ever learned from or read, cite Naihanchi as translating to "Fighting holding your ground." I've never heard of the other interpretation of this name.

R. McLain

 

[ppko]

3. Do the second and third naihanchi kata have the same depth of pressure point knowledge in them as the first?

4. Do the pyung ahn/pinan/heien kata contain pressure point knowledge?

upnorthkyosa

3. Yes you just have to search
4. Yes all katas do

 

[Yossarian75]

The two most common explanations of the origins of these hyung that ive come accross are, they were one big form split up(by Itosu?) or Itosu created the second and third.

I agree with PPKO on a couple of points here, I believe the sideways movement represents the angle of attack, ie you are sideways to your opponent. Saying that I have seen applications where you are facing your opponent but move to the side.

The majority of applications I have seen for any Hyung include pressure point strikes. Since Hyung applications tend to attack the bodies vulnerable/weak points you will always be able to find PP strikes. Ive seen applications that dont mention PP's but are clearly striking them, ie hit here it gives them a dead arm or hit this spot it makes them dizzy/unconcious.

IMO Naihanchi(cho dan) is a very important Hyung, maybe because its the one ive studied the most. The applications are great, very nasty fight stopping moves. I can see why Funakoshi spent ten years studying this, it truly is a fighting system in its own right.

 

[RRouuselot]

Naihanchi katas

originally they were all one kata
1) Naihanchi translates to points (Pressure Points) of Han Chi
It moves sideways to show how you go on your opponent, in other words you are not fighting sideways but rather showing how you opponent may turn or where you would go on your opponent to make these techniques work.

1) Absolutely positively WRONG! It does not translate as “pressure points of Han Chi”. [font=&quot]　[/font]You need to do better research and have a better grasp of the language you feign knowledge of before you try and answer such questions. Does everything have to be a pressure point with you? Sometimes I think if I showed you a donut you would claim the sprinkles on top were kyusho points.

Who was Han Chi? When did he live? Where?

Thanks for you answers...

upnorthkyosa

Han Chi is not a person’s name. The kanji for han = half and the kanji for Chi = ground.

Haihanchi I've always heard was a old okinawan Kata. Why dos it move in a straight line? I've heard 3 different theories.

1.) Took place with back to wall
2.) Took place on a bridge
3.) Was practiced on the back of a boat
4.) Nobody knows for sure

Why is there 3 of them? I heard there was originaaly 1 long kata, and it was broken up to make it easier top learn
Todd

1,2,3 are incorrect.





Written by Joe Swift, Tokyo Japan



Naihanchi no Kata
Naihanchi (a.k.a. Naifuanchi) is typical of in-fighting techniques, including grappling. There are three kata in modern (i.e. post 1900) karate, with the second and third being thought to have been created by Itosu Anko (Iwai, 1992; Kinjo, 1991a; Murakami, 1991). Another popular theory is that originally the three were one kata, but were broken up into three separate parts by Itosu (Aragaki, 2000; Iwai, 1992).

This kata was not originally developed to be used when fighting against a wall, but this does not preclude such interpretations. While the kata itself goes side to side, the applications are more often than not against an attacker who is in front of you, or grabbing at you from the sides or behind. Some say that the side-to-side movement is to build up the necessary balance and physique for quick footwork and body-shifting (Kinjo, 1991b).

Interestingly, most versions of Naihanchi start to the right side, including Itosu, Matsumura and Kyan's versions. Isshinryu's Naihanchi starts to the left. There are others that start to the left as well, including that of Kishimoto Soko lineage schools like Genseiryu and Bugeikan (Shukumine, 1966), the Tomari version of Matsumora Kosaku lineage schools like Gohakukai (Okinawa Board of Education, 1995), and Motobu Choki's version (Motobu, 1997). This last may account for Shimabuku Tatsuo beginning his Naihanchi to the left.

Isshinryu Naihanchi is basically a re-working of the classical Naihanchi Shodan, in order to keep it in line with the principles around which Shimabuku built his style. The main reason Shimabuku did not retain Naihanchi Nidan and Sandan is probably because his primary teacher Kyan did not teach them (Okinawa Prefectural Board of Education, 1995).

 

[The Kai]

1,2,3 are incorrect.

I did say they were theories, you expalnation adds much

 

[Makalakumu]

Thank you for your reply Mr. Rousselot. :asian:

Your citation was very useful.

A couple of more questions...

1. Nai = ? If Han = Half and Chi = Ground, what is the kanji for the first part?
2. Which of the three is your favorite? Why? (this question is for everyone)

 

[glad2bhere]

I had heard at least once that a form tradition in Taiwan uses biomechanics very very close to the Naifanchi model. I think I got that from material Found in the old DRAGON TIMES. Has anyone else heard this?

Also I had heard that the original Naifanchi had been split in two to form the first two, and then, based on the material of those two forms the last one was constructed.

As far as all this talk of PP work, all I can say is that the BUBISHI never suggested such complexity and that I think we are corrupting or embellishing older material with the better understanding of Oriental medicine that we have today. Given the prevalence of copied and recopied manuals such as are found yet to exist, I think the nature of the arts was much more primitive than we like to think. Nothing wrong with working to grow the art by adding these things now, if thats what folks want to do. I think it is historically inaccurate to believe that such material was an organized albeit clandestine approach in the Okinawan arts. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[RRouuselot]

Thank you for your reply Mr. Rousselot. :asian:

Your citation was very useful.

A couple of more questions...

1. Nai = ? If Han = Half and Chi = Ground, what is the kanji for the first part?
2. Which of the three is your favorite? Why? (this question is for everyone)

1) I have seen Naihanchi written 2 ways.

One way has the kanji Nai= inner/inside, Han = half, and Chi = ground

The second has the first and last kanji as the same and a different middle kanji. I am looking for the book I saw it in but seem to have misplaced it.

Most of the time it is written in katakana which is used for non-Japanese words.

2) I don't have a favorite kata....I like them all.

 

[Makalakumu]

1) I have seen Naihanchi written 2 ways.

One way has the kanji Nai= inner/inside, Han = half, and Chi = ground

The second has the first and last kanji as the same and a different middle kanji. I am looking for the book I saw it in but seem to have misplaced it.

Most of the time it is written in katakana which is used for non-Japanese words.

2) I don't have a favorite kata....I like them all.

Thank you again.

Also, Mr. Simms, I like your point about translations. That really provides insight into the variation in explanations we are seeing.

 

[shesulsa]

Mod. Note.
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-shesulsa
-MT Moderator-

 

[The Kai]

I had heard at least once that a form tradition in Taiwan uses biomechanics very very close to the Naifanchi model. I think I got that from material Found in the old DRAGON TIMES. Has anyone else heard this?

Also I had heard that the original Naifanchi had been split in two to form the first two, and then, based on the material of those two forms the last one was constructed.

As far as all this talk of PP work, all I can say is that the BUBISHI never suggested such complexity and that I think we are corrupting or embellishing older material with the better understanding of Oriental medicine that we have today. Given the prevalence of copied and recopied manuals such as are found yet to exist, I think the nature of the arts was much more primitive than we like to think. Nothing wrong with working to grow the art by adding these things now, if thats what folks want to do. I think it is historically inaccurate to believe that such material was an organized albeit clandestine approach in the Okinawan arts. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

I think that would probably be the case

 

[BlackCatBonz]

1) I have seen Naihanchi written 2 ways.

One way has the kanji Nai= inner/inside, Han = half, and Chi = ground

The second has the first and last kanji as the same and a different middle kanji. I am looking for the book I saw it in but seem to have misplaced it.

Most of the time it is written in katakana which is used for non-Japanese words.

2) I don't have a favorite kata....I like them all.

i think the second kanji in other ways of writing it translates to the word claw. so it's indicative of the kamae used in the kata. it would be like holding your knees in (a la sanchin) while gripping the ground with your toes. i could be way off.........what do you think robert?
as far as all the pressure point hooey......i guess people can dream up all kinds of stuff.