Mystry Kata by woman?

[Gyakuto]

Uechi ryu has the remnants of Chinese iron shirt training. Kanbun Uechi was training in China not long after the boxer rebellion and there is a historic link to another rebellion too but that's a long story. Needles to say it's iron shirt training. I would guess the same for Goju but I don't have as much history on that.
With Uechi the goal is to have the ability to take hits and fluff them off like it's nothing. You do need mobility so you can't just stand there with all your muscles locked down. Thus it's often said in Uechi and Goju , "half hard -half soft.
I do belive Goju had the same end goal as Uechi. My speculation is that Goju would start off very hard then reduce the tension as the student became more proficient. But that was lost over time. Where Uech didn't go-to that extreme.
Dynamic tension is a key component in iron shirt training. I think Uechi and Goju just had different starting points. Then lost a lot of the training when it left China.

So using tense muscles as armour? That’s a very strange strategy since muscles are richly interacted by sensory (pain) nerves (Group IIIs) and highly vascular.

 

[isshinryuronin]

While its a funny anecdotal story, I doubt it is true

I'm sticking with it.

 

[isshinryuronin]

It is my understanding that Shimabuku allowed students to use either method. Many of the Okinawan students preferred the traditional horizontal punch that they were used to.

If so, the vast majority of his continuing isshinryu students (as I listed) chose Shimabuku's main preferred method of using the twist punch for sanchin. Logic tells me since the vertical punch was the trademark of his system, there must have been some good reason for him to make an exception in this particular kata and keep the horizontal twist punch in it.

Most of the founder's Okinawan students followed his method. After he passed many reverted to the shorinryu of Kyan (who did use the vertical fist at times) including Tatsuo's amazing little brother, Eizo who became a master in his own right. While they may have liked the traditional twist punch better, Kichiro (Tatsuo's son) being named as the successor may have played a part. A number of those who remained moved their allegiance to Tatsuo's son-in-law, Angi Uezu.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Yes, there is lesser tension during the step and inhalation, but normally some nevertheless, especially in hips and lats.

This is very rare in isshinryu and NOT representative of the style. T. Shimabuku, A. Uezu, T. Uechi, H. Long, M. Calandra, C. Ewing and all other masters of the style (including Sherman Harrill) I've seen in video or in person use the twist punch in sanchin. (I've never seen K. Shimabuku do this kata in video or during his visit to my sensei's dojo, although Calandra studied with him and he uses twist punch). The only one I've seen using the vertical fist is A. Advicula so this must be considered the exception.

I suspect Shimabuku experimented with adapting the punch to the isshinryu style of punching but soon abandoned the idea thinking for this particular kata, the corkscrew punch worked best. Advicula apparently learned this form during the very short time master Shimabuku did it this way sometime in the mid/late 50's.

I have no doubt you're right. I'm merely reporting how we do it in our dojo, and mentioning that it was approved by both Masters Harrill and Mitchum according to my sensei.

 

[hoshin1600]

So using tense muscles as armour? That’s a very strange strategy since muscles are richly interacted by sensory (pain) nerves (Group IIIs) and highly vascular.

It's not strange once you understand the complexity of the body and how it responds to physical stress. Similar to how lifting weights builds muscle. The body compensates for the stress that is put on it.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I have no doubt you're right. I'm merely reporting how we do it in our dojo, and mentioning that it was approved by both Masters Harrill and Mitchum according to my sensei.

Since Shimabuku was an innovator and tried different things over time, the "correct" way changed as well, depending on when the student was taught, as you know. As an instructor having taught various isshinryu black belts trained by other lineages, I don't care whether they do a kata version with or without the front kick, use the knife hand for a strike or block, or do the high or middle knife hand high block. These are all versions I've seen and did myself at various times and are minor changes that don't really affect the bunkai.

The kind of punch we're discussing as done in sanchin however, to me is a different matter. I am more adamant on this point. For the reason:

Logic tells me since the vertical punch was the trademark of his system, there must have been some good reason for him to make an exception in this particular kata and keep the horizontal twist punch in it.

Aside from this, 90% of our style's practitioners do it this way. But since I'm not your sensei, I won't hold it against you for using the vertical punch . Please continue to do so if you like (not that you need my permission).

I just tried sanchin with the vertical punch a few times and found that the horizontal punch method seemed to stress the final locking of the punch and breath better. It could be that I'm more used to it, but that's my impression. You can try it for yourself and judge (let me know what you think).

 

[isshinryuronin]

So using tense muscles as armour? That’s a very strange strategy since muscles are richly interacted by sensory (pain) nerves (Group IIIs) and highly vascular.

My relatively uninformed opinion is that the benefit is two-fold: 1. Hardening the abs may keep the strike and its force from penetrating into the cavity. 2. By causing tension inside the cavity and compressing it, it keeps the organs from bouncing around from the impact (and the strike's retraction) thus reducing chance of internal trauma.

 

[_Simon_]

I.... LOVE Sanchin chats. Enjoying the discussion thus far.

Nothing much to add, but it's such a rich and deep kata. It is very interesting all the variations, and I even recently read a discussion on apparently the reason why the original Sanchin kata (Sanchin Dai Ichi?) did NOT include the 180° turns was that it was considered disrespectful to turn your back on the master. Weird, as all other kata will have you turn away. Don't know if any truth to it, but the discussion became a little heated haha. Another reason I heard was towards the end of Miyagi Sensei's life he was sick and would teach mostly sitting, and so that the student wouldn’t turn his back and so Miyagi could see all the moves, Sanchin Dai Ichi was created.

I found the fact that Sanchin was taught around black belt level in some styles also very interesting! Can't quite understand that rationale that it gets in the way or hinders a student's progress... unless it's because many students are already FAR too tense already and need to learn relaxation. In ours (Goju ryu/kensha) it's taught at 6th kyu, Tensho at 5th kyu, as both are considered a tanren kata which teaches important principles to then use to inform other kata, hence why they're taught earlier as they provide a foundation. (We also have Naifunchi kata, which are taught and trained more for tanren purposes).

Also the usage of tension levels and hip usage. In my old style Kyokushin, the body was completely locked in place while doing the punches/thrusts (NO movement at hips, just arm movements), whereas in current style allows for slight hip movement. This makes much more sense to me, as it's teaching appropriate movement dynamics while keeping a stable and grounded base.

I also train Sanchin in a few different ways, with full tension, and then also more with a cascading, escalating tension as the technique is created.

Anyway back to the OP, yeah she did very well in the testing, only a few moments of unbalance but Uechi shime is pretty intense from what I've seen haha. In Kyokushin it was more done to withstand blows and keep going (more in line with its philosophy of spirit of osu, determination, perseverance), whereas current style's shime is purely for testing alignment, structure, correct muscle groups are activated, and also to provide some pressure.

So that "nothing much to add" turned into the opposite, as is oft the case!

 

[Gyakuto]

It's not strange once you understand the complexity of the body and how it responds to physical stress. Similar to how lifting weights builds muscle. The body compensates for the stress that is put on it.

But pounding on a muscle isn’t going to strengthen blood vessel walls (what is there to strengthen?) or thicken the cell wall of myocytes (a phospholipid bilayer is a phospholipid bilayer). It’s like suggesting pounding on a car’s wing will make it more resilient to impact in an accident. I can see one might become, in time, habituated to the pain, but aren’t the MA all about avoiding pain and injury by blocking and ‘slipping’ an attack?

It just seems like an odd strategy to me, and I do wonder if there’s an element of machismo to the idea.

 

[punisher73]

It is my understanding that Shimabuku allowed students to use either method. Many of the Okinawan students preferred the traditional horizontal punch that they were used to.

You will also see discussions about the "snap" versus "thrust" aspect of Isshin-Ryu's vertical punch. Many say that it is snap punch, but AJ Advincula maintains that the main use of the vertical punch is a thrust.

Also, as you pointed out much depended on "when" you learned from Tatsuo Shimabuku. For example, Harry Smith learned Sanchin kata first but by the time Arcenio Advincula studied, it was taught as the last empty hand kata. It should also be pointed out that after the 1966 films were passed around some instructors changed how they did the kata to match the film.

If so, the vast majority of his continuing isshinryu students (as I listed) chose Shimabuku's main preferred method of using the twist punch for sanchin. Logic tells me since the vertical punch was the trademark of his system, there must have been some good reason for him to make an exception in this particular kata and keep the horizontal twist punch in it.

Most of the founder's Okinawan students followed his method. After he passed many reverted to the shorinryu of Kyan (who did use the vertical fist at times) including Tatsuo's amazing little brother, Eizo who became a master in his own right. While they may have liked the traditional twist punch better, Kichiro (Tatsuo's son) being named as the successor may have played a part. A number of those who remained moved their allegiance to Tatsuo's son-in-law, Angi Uezu.

No disagreement there at all. It just explains why AJ Advincula uses the vertical punch while everyone else uses the horitzontal punch.

It also illustrates that Shimabuku continued to experiment and try to make his karate better throughout his life.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

No disagreement there at all. It just explains why AJ Advincula uses the vertical punch while everyone else uses the horitzontal punch.

It also illustrates that Shimabuku continued to experiment and try to make his karate better throughout his life.

I have no idea how true this is, but I've been told that he was subjected to a lot of peer pressure by his fellow masters during a time when the pressure to be the same was high. I was told that at one point, he went to the corkscrew punch as a capitulation, but later rethought and decided to go back to his distinctive vertical punch. I know that the Rengokai didn't recognize Isshinryu as an independent art for a very long time, classing it as a subset of Shorinryu. Or so I am told.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

But pounding on a muscle isn’t going to strengthen blood vessel walls (what is there to strengthen?) or thicken the cell wall of myocytes (a phospholipid bilayer is a phospholipid bilayer). It’s like suggesting pounding on a car’s wing will make it more resilient to impact in an accident. I can see one might become, in time, habituated to the pain, but aren’t the MA all about avoiding pain and injury by blocking and ‘slipping’ an attack?

It just seems like an odd strategy to me, and I do wonder if there’s an element of machismo to the idea.

We often practice dropping our wind prior to a punch landing in training, and from my own experience, it makes it much easier to manage the impact. "Having the wind knocked out of you" is not a fun experience; having dropped our wind first, that doesn't happen.

Granted the first rule of karate is to not get hit - but sometimes it happens.

 

[punisher73]

I have no idea how true this is, but I've been told that he was subjected to a lot of peer pressure by his fellow masters during a time when the pressure to be the same was high. I was told that at one point, he went to the corkscrew punch as a capitulation, but later rethought and decided to go back to his distinctive vertical punch. I know that the Rengokai didn't recognize Isshinryu as an independent art for a very long time, classing it as a subset of Shorinryu. Or so I am told.

I have heard the same thing. From things I have read, some of the pressure was from his Okinawan students as well.

 

[Gyakuto]

We often practice dropping our wind prior to a punch landing in training, and from my own experience, it makes it much easier to manage the impact. "Having the wind knocked out of you" is not a fun experience; having dropped our wind first, that doesn't happen.

Do you mean pulling your punches? ‘Sundome’?

Granted the first rule of karate is to not get hit - but sometimes it happens.

Yes, but an unexpected blow means the recipient is unprepared and not tensed-up awaiting to receive it.

I’m not trying to critisis, but rather understand. Goju- and Uechi Ryu have a long and noble history but for me, this extended training time spent in ‘body toughening‘ to produce ‘organic armour’ doesn‘t make sense, especially when that training time could be used to hone avoidance and blocking skills! For me, it’s akin to the myth that tamashiwara was developed to punch through wooden chest armour, or that flying kicks were designed to knock down mounted warriors!

 

[Dirty Dog]

Do you mean pulling your punches? ‘Sundome’?

Sundome??? Hey, your hairline is receding a bit too, so you're not one to talk!

 

[Gyakuto]

Sundome??? Hey, your hairline is receding a bit too, so you're not one to talk!

Oh that’s very good!

I actually get my hair cut like this to appear more mature and distinguished. It’s true, I tell you! 😑

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Do you mean pulling your punches? ‘Sundome’?

I'm sorry, I don't know what you mean by that.

Yes, but an unexpected blow means the recipient is unprepared and not tensed-up awaiting to receive it.

In this case, it would not be unexpected, but you find yourself unable to block or evade it.

I’m not trying to critisis, but rather understand. Goju- and Uechi Ryu have a long and noble history but for me, this extended training time spent in ‘body toughening‘ to produce ‘organic armour’ doesn‘t make sense, especially when that training time could be used to hone avoidance and blocking skills! For me, it’s akin to the myth that tamashiwara was developed to punch through wooden chest armour, or that flying kicks were designed to knock down mounted warriors!

Part of the idea of chinkuchi as I understand it is that the muscles come into alignment at the moment of impact - and yes, you drop your wind. And by impact in this case, I mean when striking. But it serves the same purpose as being hit in the midsection when the wind is dropped and the muscles of the abdomen compressed. I'm not sure I have the words to explain it more than that.

 

[Gyakuto]

I'm sorry, I don't know what you mean by that.

It’s stopping one’s strike (‘dome’) within 2cm (‘sun’) of the target. You focus your punch in front of the opponents body instead of inside their body!

Another method is making contact but dropping power immediately so your fist sort of slaps into their body harmlessly.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Sanchin was a "body-building" kata. By that I don't mean Arnold type bodybuilding. What I mean is that Sanchin builds a "karate body" to strike with speed/power and the ability to take blows. It developed what the Okinawans called "chinkuchi"

Chinkuchi is only partially involved in sanchin kata, and less so in other katas. (see next quote for explanation.)

Part of the idea of chinkuchi as I understand it is that the muscles come into alignment at the moment of impact

This is a better statement of chinkuchi, the definitive phrase being "at the moment of impact." It is the total delivery of power combining muscle, speed, biomechanics, alignment and breath at that moment. Sanchin is mainly devoted to developing a rooted stance to the ground and overall stability while force is transmitted horizontally to the opponent.

The reason chinkuchi is not a big part of sanchin is that there is no speed (except in some of the Uechi-ryu moves) and the impact is not the main concern, rather what's happening on the way to impact.

Uechi ryu has the remnants of Chinese iron shirt training

There is some of this element present in sanchin. Iron shirt is not much related to chinkuchi.

I’m not trying to critisis, but rather understand. Goju- and Uechi Ryu have a long and noble history but for me, this extended training time spent in ‘body toughening‘ to produce ‘organic armour’ doesn‘t make sense

The dynamic tension in sanchin which provides some "iron shirt armor" is different from "body toughening." I think you are referring koteki tai, usually known as body conditioning by arms, fists and legs being repetitively impacted by a hard object (such as stick, makiwara, tree, or partner's strikes) to strengthen the bones and muscle.

As hoshin1600 said in his quote, Okinawan styles have but a remnant of this armor in their training." More common is koteki tai conditioning (while "kote" refers just to the arms, it's often used as a general term).

While all of the terms I've been throwing around can sometimes intersect in varying degrees causing much confusion, they are separate concepts. I hope I reduced this confusion and not increased it.

 

[hoshin1600]

In one of Funakoshi's books, he mentioned his two teachers and how one said to evade the opponents strikes as if they were sharp blades and the other teacher was of the mindset that you should train the body to withstand everything that the opponent can dish out.
I'm not going to say one is better than the other, as both have pro's and con's.
What I can say is that iron shirt type conditioning, what ever you want to call it works. I've done it. Is it good for you? Well that's an important question each individual has to answer for themselves because there is a trade off. But as martial artists there is always a trade off. My Aikido teacher died of kidney failure from the impact of being thrown for 50 years. Lots of karate masters have deformed hands from punching the marinara.
Training is training.
I hesitate to try to explain iron shirt from a scientific perspective because my mind can't remember all the physiology terms, although I did know them at one time.
The conditioning effects are:
The hardening of muscles in a contraction through changes in the muscle.
Raising the threshold of pain tolerance. The pain signals to the brain are reduced. Within the circuts there is a jump point between fibers and there is a pain signal modulator there that stops sending the signal across the jump.
Conditioning increases bone mass, through calcified deposits over the bones creating an extra layer of protective tissue. The bone itself also increases its density.
There are changes in the blood capillaries and vessels but I will admit that I don't know why. I can say that even with extreme impacts there is no longer bruising.
I really don't like explaining this stuff, I am not recommending it or endorsing it.
If someone is reading this and thinks your going to try it on your own, please don't. It can really damage your body if not done with proper guidance.