Mystry Kata by woman?

[opr1945]

In my hours of bouncing around the web, I am retired, I came across a video of a woman doing a Kata, Sanchin I think, wearing a black sports bra and white uniform pants. She had dark hair and was doing the Kata before a group of spectators. A convention or seminar perhaps? It didn't look like a competition to me, but I could be wrong. Anyway, I have been looking for it, and of course I can't find it. Wish I had bookmarked it.

Perhaps someone has a link to it, hopefully. Thanks.

 

[marvin8]

In my hours of bouncing around the web, I am retired, I came across a video of a woman doing a Kata, Sanchin I think, wearing a black sports bra and white uniform pants. She had dark hair and was doing the Kata before a group of spectators. A convention or seminar perhaps? It didn't look like a competition to me, but I could be wrong. Anyway, I have been looking for it, and of course I can't find it. Wish I had bookmarked it.

Perhaps someone has a link to it, hopefully. Thanks.

A woman in sports bra and white uniform pants doing Sanchin.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Good job, Marvin8.

A fairly good rendition of Uechi-ryu sanchin. She did hold up well during the traditional pressure testing. The fact that open hands were used throughout and that dynamic tension in execution or breathing was absent (though was present in the legs and core) differentiates this style from goju.

opr1945, what interested you in this clip?

 

[Gyakuto]

opr1945, what interested you in this clip?

Duh! 😉

 

[opr1945]

Wow, that was quick post reply. I couldn't find it. That was probably the one I had seen. My memory tells me it was a solid black top and noone was testing her. But at my age memory is not very trustworthy, as my wife keeps telling me.

I now have 5 months in to starting Karate. and am learning Sanchin Kata, very slowly. So have been looking at a lot of Sanchin videos seeing many varations. I am studying Uechi-ryu and this is the version we use. Thank you.

 

[HighKick]

A woman in sports bra and white uniform pants doing Sanchin.

That is wrong on so many levels.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Out of fairness to Ms. Martin, I'm revising my evaluation of her performance upon reviewing the clip from an Uech-ryu viewpoint. My "fairly good" is hereby upgraded to "very good." Great structure and composure. It is difficult to resist the natural temptation to anticipate the sensei's strikes and not over-react. Aside from mental discipline, this requires an understanding of the underlying principles of sanchin.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Side note: Sanchin is often done sans gi top in order to demonstrate the muscle groups being used, as the final step in each movement includes dumping all air in the lungs / compressing of the hara / slight tilt of the hips for the purpose of being able to absorb blows to the midsection. The midsection muscles ideally fold over one another and create a locked 'wall'. It would follow that for woman, a sports bra might be used as opposed to going completely topless.

For those not familiar with the Okinawan/Japanese versions of sanchin, it is usually done very slowly and deliberately, without kicks or kias, and stances are often checked, sometimes with vigor, by coaches/judges/instructors, etc. Sometimes sanchin is known as the 'breathing' kata, as enhanced breathing accompanies the exhalations necessary to dump all available wind. Less known, there is a special technique done with the tongue as the air is dropped, often leading to a 'hissing' noise.

 

[isshinryuronin]

includes dumping all air in the lungs

I'll disagree with you here. I've been taught that one should never exhale all the air (ever), retaining some, at least in the belly. (Not sure if you're making this distinction.)

usually done very slowly

There is no tension in the hand techniques in the Uechi ryu version. This, I believe, along with incorporating fists, was an innovation of goju's Miyagi.

 

[Steve]

Side note: Sanchin is often done sans gi top in order to demonstrate the muscle groups being used, as the final step in each movement includes dumping all air in the lungs / compressing of the hara / slight tilt of the hips for the purpose of being able to absorb blows to the midsection. The midsection muscles ideally fold over one another and create a locked 'wall'. It would follow that for woman, a sports bra might be used as opposed to going completely topless.

For those not familiar with the Okinawan/Japanese versions of sanchin, it is usually done very slowly and deliberately, without kicks or kias, and stances are often checked, sometimes with vigor, by coaches/judges/instructors, etc. Sometimes sanchin is known as the 'breathing' kata, as enhanced breathing accompanies the exhalations necessary to dump all available wind. Less known, there is a special technique done with the tongue as the air is dropped, often leading to a 'hissing' noise.

Thank you for this context, Bill. I am guilty of presuming the worst.

 

[opr1945]

"That is wrong on so many levels."

That statement went right over my head. What is wrong with it?

 

[hoshin1600]

There is no tension in the hand techniques in the Uechi ryu version. This, I believe, along with incorporating fists, was an innovation of goju's Miyagi.

What you are referring to is the isometric tension within the movement that was a hallmark of Chojun Miyagi. In uechi ryu the open hands will squeeze the fingers together. So there is tension there. There is a tension within the body that flows and moves. The tension can increase and decrease in each area or muscle independently from other areas. When the test hit comes the tension will need to increase in that area but not other areas because you still need to perform the action in the kata.
In the thrusting motion the tension will go to zero in the triceps to get maximum force in the strike but the rest of the muscles that are not involved in that action remain with maybe 60% tension. Where as Goju will have 80 to 90% through out the entire kata.

 

[Gyakuto]

What you are referring to is the isometric tension within the movement that was a hallmark of Chojun Miyagi. In uechi ryu the open hands will squeeze the fingers together. So there is tension there. There is a tension within the body that flows and moves. The tension can increase and decrease in each area or muscle independently from other areas. When the test hit comes the tension will need to increase in that area but not other areas because you still need to perform the action in the kata.
In the thrusting motion the tension will go to zero in the triceps to get maximum force in the strike but the rest of the muscles that are not involved in that action remain with maybe 60% tension. Where as Goju will have 80 to 90% through out the entire kata.

What are the benefits of this, especially the very specific values/differences in tension between Uechi- and Goju Ryu?

 

[hoshin1600]

What are the benefits of this, especially the very specific values/differences in tension between Uechi- and Goju Ryu?

Uechi ryu has the remnants of Chinese iron shirt training. Kanbun Uechi was training in China not long after the boxer rebellion and there is a historic link to another rebellion too but that's a long story. Needles to say it's iron shirt training. I would guess the same for Goju but I don't have as much history on that.
With Uechi the goal is to have the ability to take hits and fluff them off like it's nothing. You do need mobility so you can't just stand there with all your muscles locked down. Thus it's often said in Uechi and Goju , "half hard -half soft.
I do belive Goju had the same end goal as Uechi. My speculation is that Goju would start off very hard then reduce the tension as the student became more proficient. But that was lost over time. Where Uech didn't go-to that extreme.
Dynamic tension is a key component in iron shirt training. I think Uechi and Goju just had different starting points. Then lost a lot of the training when it left China.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Uechi ryu has the remnants of Chinese iron shirt training. Kanbun Uechi was training in China not long after the boxer rebellion and there is a historic link to another rebellion too but that's a long story. Needles to say it's iron shirt training. I would guess the same for Goju but I don't have as much history on that.
With Uechi the goal is to have the ability to take hits and fluff them off like it's nothing. You do need mobility so you can't just stand there with all your muscles locked down. Thus it's often said in Uechi and Goju , "half hard -half soft.
I do belive Goju had the same end goal as Uechi. My speculation is that Goju would start off very hard then reduce the tension as the student became more proficient. But that was lost over time. Where Uech didn't go-to that extreme.
Dynamic tension is a key component in iron shirt training. I think Uechi and Goju just had different starting points. Then lost a lot of the training when it left China.

I'll start off with an anecdote. It's said that Miyagi was originally going to call his style, "half hard" until someone pointed out it could be taken as a male sexual condition . And so we have "goju," hard-soft. I'd guess there's a 50% chance of the story being true.

Uechi spent around 15 years in China learning MA (Miyagi's teacher, Higashionna spent a few years there as well studying at the kojo dojo and with Arigake Seisho). I don't know the exact nature of Uechi's training there. But when he came back to Okinawa his personal style was pangai-no'on. His son renamed the style after his father to honor him (and perhaps to "Okinawanize" the name as well).

Uechi-ryu retained a little more Chinese flavor than goju did. Aside from the iron shirt aspect hoshin1600 discussed, sanchin is a kata that teaches "rooting" oneself to the ground. Miyagi added the clenched fist and tension during the hand techniques, not just at the end. This develops the ability to transmit horizontal power towards the opponent while keeping one's body vertically rooted to the ground, regardless of the resistance met by the strike. This is a simple explanation that does not do justice to the concept. I believe this is a main element of sanchin as taught in goju and isshinryu (whose founder was taught sanchin by Miyagi)

When the test hit comes the tension will need to increase in that areawh

This is contrary to the principle of sanchin as I was taught which is there should be NO change in tension throughout the kata making it very exhausing and potentially dangerous to do full power (I strained my guts as a young man from using too much internal tension). A major concept is to remain unaffected by exterior forces. In goju I believe, sanchin is taught to lower belts. My style saves it till training for black. In any event, sanchin is a unique kata with much depth; easy to get the basic moves down but taking years to realize its full potential.
.

 

[punisher73]

I'll start off with an anecdote. It's said that Miyagi was originally going to call his style, "half hard" until someone pointed out it could be taken as a male sexual condition . And so we have "goju," hard-soft. I'd guess there's a 50% chance of the story being true.

Uechi spent around 15 years in China learning MA (Miyagi's teacher, Higashionna spent a few years there as well studying at the kojo dojo and with Arigake Seisho). I don't know the exact nature of Uechi's training there. But when he came back to Okinawa his personal style was pangai-no'on. His son renamed the style after his father to honor him (and perhaps to "Okinawanize" the name as well).

Uechi-ryu retained a little more Chinese flavor than goju did. Aside from the iron shirt aspect hoshin1600 discussed, sanchin is a kata that teaches "rooting" oneself to the ground. Miyagi added the clenched fist and tension during the hand techniques, not just at the end. This develops the ability to transmit horizontal power towards the opponent while keeping one's body vertically rooted to the ground, regardless of the resistance met by the strike. This is a simple explanation that does not do justice to the concept. I believe this is a main element of sanchin as taught in goju and isshinryu (whose founder was taught sanchin by Miyagi)

This is contrary to the principle of sanchin as I was taught which is there should be NO change in tension throughout the kata making it very exhausing and potentially dangerous to do full power (I strained my guts as a young man from using too much internal tension). A major concept is to remain unaffected by exterior forces. In goju I believe, sanchin is taught to lower belts. My style saves it till training for black. In any event, sanchin is a unique kata with much depth; easy to get the basic moves down but taking years to realize its full potential.
.

While its a funny anecdotal story, I doubt it is true. The term came from the Bubishi and more specifically the "Kempo Gokui" that it contained. The third line/poem is "The way of inhaling and exhaling is hardness and softness". It should also be noted that Kanbun Uechi originally referred to his style as "Pangai Noon" (which you already noted) which translates to "half-hard, half-soft".

The way I learned Sanchin was also as you described it, the tension should be kept the same throughout the movement. Although this may change as someone is training a different aspect/element to it. But, this is an exception and not the rule.

I also thought I would point out that in Uechi-Ryu and Goju-Ryu (pre-ww2) that Sanchin was the first kata taught. Tatsuo Shimabuku later changed the order in which he taught Sanchin because he felt that it hindered a student's progress and moved it to last.

Sanchin was a "body-building" kata. By that I don't mean Arnold type bodybuilding. What I mean is that Sanchin builds a "karate body" to strike with speed/power and the ability to take blows. It developed what the Okinawans called "chinkuchi"

(not disagreeing, just adding to your post)

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Since we're discussing how Sanchin can be developed and applied, I would like to add that I found this book very instructive. And I don't typically care for many martial arts books. This one impressed me.

The Way of Sanchin Kata: The Application of Power​

by Kris Wilder

Amazon.com

www.amazon.com

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I'll disagree with you here. I've been taught that one should never exhale all the air (ever), retaining some, at least in the belly. (Not sure if you're making this distinction.)

We dump all the air. In the circumstance where the karateka performs two chinkuchi movements at the end of the punches (first at the punch, second at the recoil to a block a second later), one's wind is *nearly* completely expelled at the end of the punch and then completely expelled as the block is formed. In any case, yes, we drop all wind. That's what I have been taught in any case.

There is no tension in the hand techniques in the Uechi ryu version. This, I believe, along with incorporating fists, was an innovation of goju's Miyagi.

We practice Sanchin (with fists) such that the body doesn't 'lock down' until the moment of impact, when all the muscles come into alignment and the wind is completely dropped. We don't practice tension as we are moving from one movement to the next. I am taught that one should be feel refreshed and powerful after performing Sanchin, rather than wrung out and exhausted.

We also teach Sanchin as the first kata, which I realize is contrary to many schools. It is said that Sanchin is the simplest kata, but the hardest to master.

In our dojo, we practice two styles of Sanchin, which we term "Gojuryu style" and "Isshinryu style," even though our "Gojuryu style" isn't really the way it's performed in Gojuryu. They are very similar when we do them. The Goju version uses a torquing or corkscrew punch while the Isshinryu version uses the vertical fist. The gouges differ slightly as well, but that's quite minor. Otherwise they are basically identical in our dojo. We were told that both Masters Mitchum and Harrill agreed both should be taught, so we do.

 

[isshinryuronin]

We don't practice tension as we are moving from one movement to the next.

Yes, there is lesser tension during the step and inhalation, but normally some nevertheless, especially in hips and lats.

while the Isshinryu version uses the vertical fist.

This is very rare in isshinryu and NOT representative of the style. T. Shimabuku, A. Uezu, T. Uechi, H. Long, M. Calandra, C. Ewing and all other masters of the style (including Sherman Harrill) I've seen in video or in person use the twist punch in sanchin. (I've never seen K. Shimabuku do this kata in video or during his visit to my sensei's dojo, although Calandra studied with him and he uses twist punch). The only one I've seen using the vertical fist is A. Advicula so this must be considered the exception.

I suspect Shimabuku experimented with adapting the punch to the isshinryu style of punching but soon abandoned the idea thinking for this particular kata, the corkscrew punch worked best. Advicula apparently learned this form during the very short time master Shimabuku did it this way sometime in the mid/late 50's.

 

[punisher73]

Yes, there is lesser tension during the step and inhalation, but normally some nevertheless, especially in hips and lats.

This is very rare in isshinryu and NOT representative of the style. T. Shimabuku, A. Uezu, T. Uechi, H. Long, M. Calandra, C. Ewing and all other masters of the style (including Sherman Harrill) I've seen in video or in person use the twist punch in sanchin. (I've never seen K. Shimabuku do this kata in video or during his visit to my sensei's dojo, although Calandra studied with him and he uses twist punch). The only one I've seen using the vertical fist is A. Advicula so this must be considered the exception.

I suspect Shimabuku experimented with adapting the punch to the isshinryu style of punching but soon abandoned the idea thinking for this particular kata, the corkscrew punch worked best. Advicula apparently learned this form during the very short time master Shimabuku did it this way sometime in the mid/late 50's.

It is my understanding that Shimabuku allowed students to use either method. Many of the Okinawan students preferred the traditional horizontal punch that they were used to.

You will also see discussions about the "snap" versus "thrust" aspect of Isshin-Ryu's vertical punch. Many say that it is snap punch, but AJ Advincula maintains that the main use of the vertical punch is a thrust.

Also, as you pointed out much depended on "when" you learned from Tatsuo Shimabuku. For example, Harry Smith learned Sanchin kata first but by the time Arcenio Advincula studied, it was taught as the last empty hand kata. It should also be pointed out that after the 1966 films were passed around some instructors changed how they did the kata to match the film.

AJ Advincula asked Shimabuku about this and Shimabuku felt that the vertical punch was still more natural which is why he kept it as the vertical punch in Sanchin.