More reasons to fund stem cell research

[Sukerkin]

Empty hands

THEY DONT WORK

adult stem cells DO

what part of that do you not get?

John, with the greatest of respect it might help to try leaving emotional reactions aside. After all, who do you think is more likely to have the clearer knowledge of the realities of the situation with regard to this matter?

Arguing with a qualified practitioner in a field when the one doing the disagreeing is not so qualified is not showing due honour to the knowledge that has been hard won.

When things are a matter of opinion, then the layman can have an equivalent platform to a professional. When the points under discourse are matters of professional or scientific 'fact', for want of a better word, then surely it is better to take on board what the qualified person says, perhaps noting it for later avenues of personal study?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

1) totipotency
2) no proliferation limit
3) no immune reaction

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=13603 (immune reaction problems)

Why does it not shock me in the slightest that you haven't reviewed the relevant literature before spouting off? Here is a review discussing ES cell derived endothelial cell therapy for vascular disease. Here is a review discussing the same thing for heart disease. There have also been a variety of promising results in experimental models, which other reviews discuss. You can use that website to search on your own if you like.

I read your links. They all make it clear that there is potential for treatments derived from embryonic stem cells, but also discusses significant problems - and as TF stated - there is no treatment yet.

Furthermore, ES cells are an important topic of research all on their own, apart from therapeutic purposes. They provide important insights into early cellular development, transcriptional control patterns, differentiation, and far more.

I'm sure you are right about that.

No one is saying that adult stem cells shouldn't be used. However, for some purposes, they will be unsuitable. Don't halt science and medicine for the sake of clumps of cells which haven't even reached the blastula stage, and which will die anyway.

That is indeed the crust of the biscuit and that's where I still get stuck.

Seriously, this is what is being destroyed. Does it look like a person to you?

I frankly think that's insulting and unlikely to win any converts to your point of view. If I were to take the view that a human embryo is indeed 'human life' and therefore to be protected, I would not really appreciate being told that it was worthless because it didn't 'look human' yet.

I have the same objection, by the way, to the pro-lifers who parade huge signs with photos of aborted foetuses up and down the street. Unlikely to win any converts, in my humble opinion.

 

[Cryozombie]

Empty hands

THEY DONT WORK

adult stem cells DO

what part of that do you not get?

Thats like saying that '69 GTO in my neighbors driveway should be ignored cuz his 98 Hyundai runs, and it doesnt.

One just needs more work. The GTO is by far better, IF HE SPENDS THE TIME AND MONEY to get it to work.

The theory is the same for the Stem Cells.

Hell, TF, by your logic we shouldnt have anything... at one time computers didnt work, or Internal Combustion Engines, or Guns, or watches, or chemical adhesives... only thru continued experimentation, trial and error, and eventual total success or failure can we really know.

The argument that "the rest of the world tried and failed" is weak at best, since a) The time period durring which said research was carried out has been short, in relative terms, and b) We all know that America is better than the rest of the world... whats wrong with you, are you some kind of COMMIE?

 

[Twin Fist]

the government didnt FUND those things with tax payer dollers


game, set, match

see ya in the funny papers

 

[Cryozombie]

game, set, match

What? That doesn't even make sense. Game set match?

Guess what? You dont get to go "I win!" and actually win. What are you, 3? Name one adult that does that? I mean one other than you. How do you expect anyone to take you seriously?

As far as I can tell The government funds all kinds of actual "killing" with tax payer dollars. I don't get how harvesting cells from Placentas, Umbilical cords and Frozen discarded Embryo's is worse, especailly when it is being used to save lives as opposed to, well, ya know, just kill people.

 

[Twin Fist]

....sigh

look Hoss
the whole cruxt of the issue of embryonic stem cell research os government funding. No one cares if it is researched with PRIVATE funds.

you just listed a bunch of technologies that didnt work, At FIRST. And you are absolutely right. None of those worked at first.

and I pointed out that the government didnt FUND those technologies.They were paid for by the people that stood to make a profit off of it.

that effectivly shuts down the debate, and I won. We dont need government funding of embryonic stem cells. Just like we didnt for computers, cars, etc.

 

[Cryozombie]

....sigh

look Hoss.

HOSS?

Are you callin me a fat ignorant Texan?

 

[Cryozombie]

that effectivly shuts down the debate, and I won. We dont need government funding of embryonic stem cells. Just like we didnt for computers, cars, etc.

And, um, so sorry...

The government HAS funded research into Computer Systems, Guns, and many other technologies

Or does the Military use Windows 98 on Off the Shelf Dell Servers, Fight with Rocks, Etc, Etc...?

Uh huh. Let look at some origins: Mobile Phones, Military, Government Funded: GPS Technolgy, Military, Government Funded: SUV'S, Military, Government Funded (i.e. Jeep, Hummer) Etc Etc...

In fact, I'll argue that MUCH of Civilian Technology started out as Military tech paid for with our Tax dollars... Effectivley funded by the Government.

Wanna keep playing "Game Set Match?" with me, cuz I just shot your damn ball out of the court buddy... Next Lame argument...

 

[Twin Fist]

uh, cryo?

Hoss, like little joe, adam, and ben crartwright all were NEVADANS, not texans.

and hoss was not ignorant by any means......

and actually, you didnt shoot anything but yourself in the foot.

the things you mentioned, in your initial post, were not funded by the government.
they didnt need to be, and niether does fetal stem cell research

 

[Cryozombie]

uh, cryo?

Hoss, like little joe, adam, and ben crartwright all were NEVADANS, not texans.

and hoss was not ignorant by any means......

and actually, you didnt shoot anything but yourself in the foot.

the things you mentioned, in your initial post, were not funded by the government.
they didnt need to be, and niether does fetal stem cell research

Well, I dont watch cowboy movies, So you got me there... Big Ignorant Nevadan then.

But, I'm not the one who is wrong, your "Belief system" doesn't change, um, well, FACTS. The Government Can, Does, Will Probably continue to, and DID, Fund research into AT THE VERY LEAST Computers and Guns, two of the things I mentioned in my initial post.

My god man, you cannot CANNOT seriously expect anyone to believe they don't... unless you live in some Bizzare alternate reality...

I know, we'll check:

Lets see a show of hands who believes the Government funds research into Guns and Computer Technology, and who thinks they dont?

I'll Start:

Cryo: 1 for.
Twin Fist: 1 Against.

 

[Sukerkin]

Come along chaps, I know the internet can effortlessly make for heated arguments, some of which can be fun admittedly.

But when someone has nailed their colours to the mast then they're never going to admit they're wrong. So unless this exchange is going to simply be for the joy of crossing swords then there really is no point to it.

 

[Twin Fist]

you never watched Bonanza?

i cant even talk to you now..........

 

[Empty Hands]

Empty hands

THEY DONT WORK

adult stem cells DO

what part of that do you not get?

Did you read the reviews I linked?

 

[Twin Fist]

yep, all maybe's, might be, maybe could's and possibilities,

zero actual...results

oh, and flavored with a sprinkle of GIVE US TAX PAYER DOLLARS

no thanks

 

[Empty Hands]

I read your links. They all make it clear that there is potential for treatments derived from embryonic stem cells, but also discusses significant problems - and as TF stated - there is no treatment yet.

Experimental treatments have been tried, both in people and in experimental models. They have not been approved for widescale use yet, but it is false to say none exist.

I frankly think that's insulting and unlikely to win any converts to your point of view. If I were to take the view that a human embryo is indeed 'human life' and therefore to be protected, I would not really appreciate being told that it was worthless because it didn't 'look human' yet.

It's human, I never said otherwise. I used the word "person" for a very specific reason. Embryos are literally clumps of cells at this stage. They lack any necessary attributes to what we would define as a person, which is what we tend to assign rights to. There is nothing recognizable as even an organ. There is no brain, no nervous system. No ability to feel pain, or to reason. A brain dead adult is more of a person than these embryos, and yet we allow relatives to "murder" brain dead adults without much fuss.

 

[Twin Fist]

forget all that "it's a person" "no it's not" stuff, it cant be decided because that is ultimately a matter of opinion

WHY should tax dollars pay for the research?

 

[Empty Hands]

yep, all maybe's, might be, maybe could's and possibilities,

zero actual...results

So you didn't actually read the linked reviews. No surprise.

Here's some pertinent quotes:
"For example, hESC-ECs implanted with a mouse mesenchymal precursor cell line (10T1/2) in a fibronectin-collagen gel into the cranial windows of SCID mice could form cord-like networks."

"In contrast, transplantation of fetal cardiomyocytes has been shown to confer protection against the induction of ventricular tachycardia in experimental myocardial injury models. Furthermore, results from multiple laboratories suggest that fetal cardiomyocytes can couple functionally with host myocytes, stimulate formation of new blood vessels, and improve myocardial function. While it is neither practical nor ethical to test the potential of fetal cardiomyocytes in clinical trials, embryonic stem (ES) cells serve as a novel source for generation of unlimited quantities of cardiomyocytes for myocardial repair. The initial success in the application of ES cells to partially repair and improve myocardial function in experimental models of heart disease has been quite promising."

In other words, they work.

It doesn't make a lick of scientific sense anyway to suggest that a totipotent stem cell population would be useless while a pluripotent stem cell population would be useful. Ideology does funny things to people.

 

[Empty Hands]

WHY should tax dollars pay for the research?

Because it's useful and will be for the public benefit. Why else would you fund research?

 

[crushing]

It's human, I never said otherwise. I used the word "person" for a very specific reason.

You're right. The word "person" is quite ambiguous and gives much wiggle room. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Person

Embryos are literally clumps of cells at this stage.

Curious. At what stage is the developing human (but not necessarily person?) not literally "clumps of cells"?

I'm not opposed to stem cell research, even embryonic stem cell research, but the way some of the hard core advocates approach it and how they begin defining terms starts to become disquieting and has me questioning whether I should be, if not more critical, maybe even opposed to it. Follow the money!

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I'm not opposed to stem cell research, even embryonic stem cell research, but the way some of the hard core advocates approach it and how they begin defining terms starts to become disquieting and has me questioning whether I should be, if not more critical, maybe even opposed to it. Follow the money!

Precisely. I'm not sure how I feel about it (sometimes I just don't know, go figger). But the ugly "it's not even human-looking at this stage" stuff just creeps me out. Like what, it might become a dandelion or a goat instead of a human? Yeah, it's just clumps of cells. Human cells.