Modern Arnis Situation/Succession - Was "A question that needs to be answered"

[DPRESAS]

In regards to Tim Hartman we think of him highly not just as a practitioner nor a student of our father but as family member he is probably one of the best student of our father in regards to IMAF leadership we are not here to dictate or take over any part of IMAF we have our own organization. Everyone is welcome we are willing to accomodate and work side by side as long as our fathers legacy will not be challenge or tarnished. We have been silent long enough because of the request of our father for us not to get involve in this type of situation( such as politics, intrigues, and etc.) How ever at this point we will continue our fathers legacy we might not be the succesor or so called grandmaster however we are the heirs and true blood of Grandmaster Remy A. Presas. His blood runs in our veins and it is in the blood of Presas clan were modern arnis was born.
D. Presas
MARPPIO

 

[IFAJKD]

Thank you. well said...lets move on from the politics and train

 

[GouRonin]

You wanna be the man you gotta beat the man...and I ain't the man...heh heh heh
:rofl:

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Gou - nope..I saw your pics...and you ain't a platnium blond.

 

[Keil Randor]

I don't believe GM Presas legacy would be tarnished. When both Bruce Lee and Ed Parker Sr. died, their organizations split (many ways) but the fact still remains, they were innovators who took the arts to a new level. I think part of the question here is on the credentials of those who would follow GM Presas in the Modern Arnis world.

My understanding of the evolution of Modern Arnis is that GM Presas began the development of it in the Philippines, and then continued the evolution once in the US.

I understand that a large percentage of MA practitioners have a portion of the program, but lack other parts to make it a complete whole. Very few exist that have seen and trained in the whole program.

My understanding is that Datu Time Hartman has done this. I also understand there are a few others with a Datu title. Without reopening -THAT- can of worms, were the other Datu's also personal students of GM Presas?

I am also of the understanding that there was little cross training between the different branches of Modern Arnis once the GM was in the US. If true, this would imply a divergence in the art, creating a Filipino Modern Arnis and a US Modern Arnis, as the 2 parts would evolve from a common root into 2 similar, but different arts.

When the founder of an art takes it to the "next level", sometimes there are splits. This happened to Ed Parker during his development of Kenpo. (I believe there were 3 different versions) and he lost most of his original black belts during this time. I'm not saying this happened to the GM, but it has happened before. There is also the non-stop argument of what Bruce Lee would have done vs what he did do, etc.

Perhaps some information on who these senior black belts are, their training, the amount of communications they had with GM Presas over those 20+ years, your own levels of involvement during the same years, etc. might help clear up the misunderstandings and wonderings.

I mean no disrespect by this, and my understandings of the Arnis world is -very- limited. But in times of political turmoil, sometimes you have to explain things to the masses in very simple, very detailed ways. Otherwise, they find things easy to confuse. I just seek to clear things up as well as possible.

Thank you for your time.

 

[IFAJKD]

I can appreciate the need to clear things up. When we engage however in trying to disqualify, argue and split people, then training is not happening. We have to remember that all will sort out and that it was all started to add a missing element. When Bruce developed JKD he didn't plan his death nor should he have. He was not focused on "JKD" he was focused on its soul, what combat was and how to be the best at it. This was his sight. The common charateristic that all of these people share was a distaste for politics and distractions from the end goal.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I don't think the intent is to disqualify, rather to help clear up the qualifications of those involved. Then we can all as Renegade suggested find the teacher/organization that works for us. Be it WMAA, IMAF, MARPPIO, MOTT, or whomever.

:yinyang:

ps - Renegade - more smilies added.

 

[GouRonin]

I have to ask though how many of these other guys have travelled and sought out missing pieces of the art they study? I know the Renegade Datu has sought out GM Ted Buot (sp) to learn more about his own art and the sister arts for example. He's trying to complete the puzzle and he's not afraid to start in other arts to do so. He shows up not only to teach at many american kenpo camps but he also takes the floor to learn.

In my opinion, anyone who takes the floor to learn no matter what rank they are or what art theyare doing... rawks da house!
:soapbox:

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Too True.

A teacher who is not afraid to expand their knowledge is best IMO.

I have problems with those who stop learning once they get a Black Belt. (ie the "Im the teacher, so I know it all" problem.) Notice I said, "GET" not "EARN". I can go buy a black belt for $4 and call myself a teacher. Course, All I can do is teach ya to eat canvas (hint - bring salt. Helps the taste. )

 

[IFAJKD]

You can never stop being a student. Thats where it's at. I have said it before, the frustrations in the Instructors I have taught that are reluctant to be in front of other students as this would somehow harm their reputation.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Hail and Well Met, (* Not to forget the snow *)

I am not sure where to begin.


Once again no disrespect meant to anyone.

There have been many people who have travelled for a year or for many years with GM Remy Presas. Some have staid active in Modern Arnis, many have left and either found other homes or started their own systems. This does not take away from Mr Hartman,
who was one of the last men to dedicate themselves to travel the world with GM Presas.

As for the number of factions, I think it could be endless. The number of serious factions will be less. The number of students the GM Presas taught and travelled to see, and promoted, are many and may of those did not get involved with politics. There by ending their carear in FMA / Modern Arnis. Even though GM Presas may not have wanted politics, many other did. The number of 'qualified' instructors, who no loger have a 'home', who will just teach is a large. I agree with what Mr Hartmans' organization is trying and most likely will do. Standardize and trace to legitmize rank. BUt I think there will be the one and two student schools that will all just continue on their own.

As for Grand Master Title. (* I restate no disrepect to anyone especialy the Presas family. *) In my limited studies, I have found that in some FMA it was possible for more than one person to have the title of Grandmaster. It did not mean creator or inheiritor, or ..., but that this individual had the complete system in thier bad of tricks as was taught by their instructor(s). Now if an organization wishes to state that the title Grand Master is for the creator / originator is fine. It is for that system to decide.

As for the IMAF, found it very interesting that
many of the higher ranking people in Michigan, and near by areas were not even consulted for a committee of knowledgable people to draw upon, for the continuation of the art. Yes, Mr. Hartman tested for and received his 6th Lakan Anim and Datu Titles. Others I know of also tested and received Lakan Lima (* three people *), Lakan Apat (* two people *), but not one was even considered, since they were not political person, nor travelling wiht the profeseur at the time as Mr. Hartman was. And yes before you all jump on me, Mr. Hartman was not considered, either, until after others had made a grab for power.


Thanks for the :soapbox:

Rich

P.S. - Ted Bout prefers the title, Manong Bout,
Grand Master is reserved for Anciong Bacon.:asian:

 

[Mao]

There are WAY to many SHAMELESS plugs going on for this Renegade guy. His head is BIG enough already! It has been said before that people will go with who they like. There are extremely few people in the U.S. who know the older Presas children. There are also extremely few people who REALLY like this Renegade character. That leaves only ME, and of course Whoopass if I don't kill him first. What a turd! You gonna make something of it Candyass, I mean Whoopass?
Seriously, many people are uptight and posturing probably for nothing. People will still go with who they like, or perhaps who is closest to them. There are still things going on that I will post more about in a bit. As you can tell, there are people comeing outta the woodwork. Keep staying tuned..............at least for the humor :armed:

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

I want to make some things clear. I'm not fighting, nor do I want to, over the IMAF. I don't think it's worth fighting for. My issues are about how Jeff D. and the rest of the MOTTs have tried to make me appear as a traitor to Remy and his art! I've been told to my face by one of the MOTTs that rank meant nothing to Remy, yet From July 2000 to October 2000 he was promoted from 3rd black to 5th black and given the title of Tapi-Tapi Master. If rank didn't count, why did Remy bother giving any rank and not just the title? Randy Shea told me in Germany, Remy changed 5th black from Jr. Master to full Master. If Remy truly wanted to make this group the new leaders in the Modern Arnis world, why did he not promote them above my rank?

I left the IMAF and forfeited all claims to that group. Don't tell me that I have no claims to Modern Arnis! I had been preparing the WMAA for over 5 years. Why? Because I saw what was happening behind the scenes and saw all of this coming. Look at Parker's Kenpo, JKD, Wing Chung, etc. This is history repeating itself. The only thing that was different was that people didn't wait for Remy to die before starting the political B.S.

My self, Dr Remy Presas and Mary Ann will be accompanied by our senior instructor from the Philippine each instructor are the original students of our father which they are from 7th to 9th degree black belt in modern arnis/ eskrima/ kali. All of the instructor have been arnis trainers for thirty years they will accompany us during seminars as consultance. Dr. Presas and Mary Ann along with the senior instructors were the first to be train by our father before he migrated to America in the years that has past they have continued to practice and maintain the skills that was past down from our great grandfather to our grandfather to our father and now to us.
As the Presas family said in one of their previous posts, I consider them family. But because we are family, does not mean we agree on all points. As far as the Presas' and their consultants go, they were around the art at one of its most important times - the beginning. There in no doubt in my mind that anyone that has been training consistently for over thirty years should be one hell of a martial artist. The problem is that they had missed twenty plus years of development of Remy's art. Remy was constantly fine tuning and/or developing new material, and seeing that neither the family nor the instructors from the Philippines were training with Remy during this time, they would have no idea in what direction Remy was going. At the same token, my complaints with many of the new Modern Arnis practitioners is that they don't know the basics that Remy built the art on. As I said before, it's embarrassing that many of the black belts cannot execute simple techniques, like trapping hands Decadena or six count drill. I am looking forward to seeing what the MARPPIO instructional staff will be teaching. I am sure that they will be able to share drills and techniques that Remy chose not to, or even forgot to teach.

We will continue to protect our father's good name and his title as the only grandmaster of modern arnis.
This is a goal that we should all work for. Remy is the true founder of the art, but maybe someone else will become proficient enough to earn that title someday. I feel that the title GM has different meanings to different people. Saying that it is only the founder limits the life span of the art. By that definition, the art will become extinct.

You can never stop being a student. That's where it's at. I have said it before, the frustrations in the Instructors I have taught that are reluctant to be in front of other students as this would somehow harm their reputation.
This is why I continue to train with GM Ted Buot. I don't ever want to feel that I have "learned it all". I get bored and complacent when I am not learning. It doesn't even have to be FMA, as long as I am learning something.

It has been said before that people will go with who they like.
Of course it was said, Mao. I was the one who said it! By the way, they will go with WHOM they like.

I don't want to take away from any of the other instructors, but when people take shots at me for no other reason than jealousy and insecurity, I will not let that go unanswered. I told Dr. Shea, who "WAS" the chairman of the board of the IMAF, that I would be more than happy to do joint events with the IMAF. I also told them that if they started a mud-slinging campaign against me, that I would have no problems telling the truth on a lot of things that happened. All I wanted was to co-exist peacefully. But unfortunately, in their attempt to promote themselves, they have taken shots at me. And homey don't play that!
:boing2: :soapbox: :uhoh:

 

[Brian Johns]

Folks,

I've got several thoughts and in no particular order:

(1) There are those who are aghast at the various factions of Modern Arnis. I don't necessarily think that it's a bad situation at all. The WMAA will be in good hands with Datu Hartman. Despite some aspersions of some of those on here toward the MOTTS, I think that they are quite a good group of Arnisadors (with the exception of the self appointed Grandmaster). Prof Presas named 7 people as Masters of Tapi Tapi. Out of those 7, it appears that one is leaving himself out to hang himself. The other 6 will be together with Dr. Schea as the guiding force. Dr. Schea is very very good and had been with the Professor for quite a few years. He's got quite a bit of experience in Tai Chi, Silat, and Modern Arnis. So bottom line, I think that anybody who chooses the WMAA will be fine and anybody who chooses the MOTTS will be fine.

(2) Folks should be reminded that there is a reason that the Professor bestowed several people with the honor of Masters of Tapi Tapi. Remy heavily emphasized tapi tapi in the last several years. As a matter of fact, 8 out of the new 15 videos focus on tapi tapi. I can't tell you how many times he stressed the importance of tapi tapi at seminars and camps in the last several years. Tapi tapi became the core concept of Remy's art. It appears that the MOTTs are committed to teaching Modern Arnis as it was taught by Prof Presas in the last several years. Is that so bad ? I think that it stands to reason that he would not name anyone a Master of Tapi Tapi unless they knew tapi tapi. If you don't know tapi tapi, you ain't gonna be no Master of Tapi Tapi.

(3) I find it interesting that the Presas family has now decided to get involved in the whole thing. I have a few questions for D. Presas (who has posted here)

(a) I've never seen you or members of your family at your father's camps and seminars over the years. Where were you all these years ? What made you decide to come out (a month after his death) ?
(b) What is the reason behind the formation of MARPPIO ? What do you hope to accomplish ?
(c) Do you and your family know tapi tapi as it was taught by your father in the last several years ?
(d) Why are you associating yourself with Ms. Harwood ? (as evidenced by her letter on the MARPPIO website) This move alone is going to alienate a large part of the Modern Arnis community.


Woo!!!

:flame:

 

[ARNIS PRINCESS]

I have attended seminars with both the MOTTS and Mr. Hartman. Mr. Hartman puts the MOTTS to shame. Could it be that Mr. Hartman was not named a MOTT because the was given the title of DATU, which in Professor Presas eyes may have superceded the title of MOTT? If I am not mistaken, as previously discussed on the Eskrima Digest, the title of DATU (meaning chieftain or leader)has been used for quite some time, whereas the title of MOTT was only first mentioned after the Professor's hospitalization. What was the Professor's mental and emotional state at that time? Were these titles earned or just given is response to pressure by certain people?


Arnis Princess

 

[Mao]

Renegade, I know full well who said it!! Also, correcting my english acomplished NOTHING! Should I begin checking all your grammer and examining your posts for typo's? I think not. I have more important things to think about.:samurai:
In all seriousness, (is that spelled right, Renegade?) I fear that there is no stopping the factioning that is to come. I don't think that that is necessarily a bad thing. Some of the groups will be larger than others, friendlier than others etc.. The diversity could be good for newcomers in some ways. The important thing is that the Profs. art is continued. There are those of us who have spent varying numbers of years with him and will teach it as he taught us. Let us not forget also that he had said so many times to explore the art. What happens when there is exploration? Often there are new discoveries. Modern arnis was and is the best of a blend of systems. The Prof. incorporated what he had learned over a lifetime of experience into his art, modern arnis. His art had evolved over the years. So should we. Otherwise we stagnate. That would stink..............like Renegade.:samurai:

 

[Cthulhu]

Again, I have no affiliation with ANYBODY in the FMA and particularly Modern Arnis...

What really burns me is that by all appearances, a few of the people in question seem to have taken advantage of a sick man who could very well have been suffering from impaired judgement at the time. Mr. Hartman seems to be the only one named who did NOT do this. To me, that speaks volumes.

<rant mode off>

:yinyang:

Cthulhu

 

[Mao]

And besides, Renegade, I said it too!!!! How's that for syntax? Do you even know what that means.......without looking it up first?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Friendly warning...play nice. I see the heat level rising. Just want to maintain civility.

Thanks!

:yinyang: :asian:

 

[Mao]

Renegade,
Are you gonna point out to Cthulu that that post been said also? Feel like sparring more??