MMA fighter in court over one punch death.

[drop bear]

I know all of nothing about Australian law but it seems highly strange to me that he wasn't just charged with manslaughter, given a reasonable person wouldn't expect death to be the outcome of a single punch.

We have specialized one punch laws that put the crime almost in line with murder.

 

[BMhadoken]

We have specialized one punch laws that put the crime almost in line with murder.

....oof. Is there actually a good reason for those laws and do they work like the sales pitch said they would?

 

[drop bear]

....oof. Is there actually a good reason for those laws and do they work like the sales pitch said they would?

Eases community concerns. Otherwise we don't get that many deaths to make a decent judgement.

 

[K-man]

I know all of nothing about Australian law but it seems highly strange to me that he wasn't just charged with manslaughter, given a reasonable person wouldn't expect death to be the outcome of a single punch.

In the past that would have been the case, however, with all the violence occurring outside night clubs in recent years most states have enacted legislation that ensures that if you get in a fight and as a result of your actions someone dies or has life threatening injuries, you will be charged with an offence that carries up to a life sentence.

The legislation is framed around the one punch scenario.

 

[K-man]

Come on, Kman. The thread might become about those things, but so far, everyone's basically said the same thing hanzou said. You guys just don't like hanzou so it feels different. We have a testerosterone fueled martial artist... Aka a dbag, who engaged in unnecessary violence, someone was killed and there are consequences. Tragic consequences. As dirty dog said, he hit an innocent bystander who died. Two relevant facts.

Everyone seems to be on the same page. What more would you like to discuss?

OK, in this case the guy is a dirt bag. You only have to do a Google search to affirm that. But no, this thread had nothing to do with Hanzou although, as usual he has sought to disrupt it.

So what did Hanzou write in his post?

So some d-bag socks some kid in the face, kid gets knocked out, and his head cracked open and dies. D-bag who did it is now going to get jail time.

What's the point of this thread? We know that there are undesirable people that practice MA. We know that if you kill someone you can get jail time.

That is simplistic to say the least. You don't have to kill someone to get jail time.

We get people boasting about how many street fights they've had and people like Hanzou advocating choking people out. Young impressionable people read that sort of thing and reckon it is acceptable. Applying a choke can now be classed here as attempted murder. You can debate that until the cows come home but it won't change the law. If you can't justify your actions you will most likely go to jail for a long time.

In Australia that sort of behaviour can destroy your life. Steve constantly questions my credentials to teach self defence but you can rest assured we had an in depth discussion about it at Krav training last night.

We had a case not so long back where an Irish tourist punched his brother and his brother ended up in a coma. He was lucky to have a supportive brother who survived and pleaded for his brother.

Irish tourist Barry Lyttle avoids jail over one-punch attack on brother Patrick

This guy was not a dirt-bag. He was a normal guy, on holidays with his family, who did something stupid.

The case that started all this was when one of Australia's top sportsmen was killed after being hit by a bouncer. The guy was acquitted and the public uproar was such that the laws were changed. Other states fell into line enacting similar legislation.

Death of David Hookes friends struggle with verdict 10 years on

So what I would say to Steve and Hanzou, and anyone else who thinks this post is not relevant to martial arts, don't read it, but if you can't see the relevance to self defence you might like to stick around and you might learn something that might save you, or someone you care about, from making the same mistake these guys did.

 

[Steve]

I think you're misunderstanding my point, and everyone else's, really. At least so far. It's a shame. The guy shouldn't have done it. It was avoidable, even if it was unintentional.

People shouldn't drink to excess. People should be careful when they do. And one shouldn't be a jerk.

And no one seems surprised that this guy is looking at some jail time. Other than a potential political/legal discussion a bout whether this should be manslaughter or murder, what more is there to discuss?

Again, it's not until hanzou says it that yiu guys get huffy, even though he said pretty much the same thing as everyone else. What he wrote was no more or less simplistic than every other post so far. Yours and mine included.

As far as learning something, I don't know what there is to learn. I don't drink to excess and don't hang around people who do. I don't frequent places where other people are drinking to excess. My chances of being in any situation like this is virtually nil. What might I learn? Am I doing it wrong?

 

[K-man]

I think you're misunderstanding my point, and everyone else's, really. At least so far. It's a shame. The guy shouldn't have done it. It was avoidable, even if it was unintentional.

I don't think I've missed anything. Your first post was right on the money, then Hanzou rides in to derail and suddenly you ignore the topic and get stuck into me. No one else is saying what you and Hanzou are saying, apart from what you posted in your first post.

People shouldn't drink to excess. People should be careful when they do. And one shouldn't be a jerk.

And knowing what we know about this case, how does this apply to the OP?

And no one seems surprised that this guy is looking at some jail time. Other than a potential political/legal discussion a bout whether this should be manslaughter or murder, what more is there to discuss?

There are many things to discuss in relation to self defence laws and basic self defence that some of us are teaching. If you don't want to discuss those things then keep out of the discussion.

Again, it's not until hanzou says it that yiu guys get huffy, even though he said pretty much the same thing as everyone else. What he wrote was no more or less simplistic than every other post so far. Yours and mine included.

No, you are the only one backing Hanzou. No one else is saying that at all.

As far as learning something, I don't know what there is to learn. I don't drink to excess and don't hang around people who do. I don't frequent places where other people are drinking to excess. My chances of being in any situation like this is virtually nil. What might I learn? Am I doing it wrong?

I can understand that. Some people know all there is to know.

 

[drop bear]

OK, in this case the guy is a dirt bag. You only have to do a Google search to affirm that. But no, this thread had nothing to do with Hanzou although, as usual he has sought to disrupt it.

So what did Hanzou write in his post?


That is simplistic to say the least. You don't have to kill someone to get jail time.

We get people boasting about how many street fights they've had and people like Hanzou advocating choking people out. Young impressionable people read that sort of thing and reckon it is acceptable. Applying a choke can now be classed here as attempted murder. You can debate that until the cows come home but it won't change the law. If you can't justify your actions you will most likely go to jail for a long time.

In Australia that sort of behaviour can destroy your life. Steve constantly questions my credentials to teach self defence but you can rest assured we had an in depth discussion about it at Krav training last night.

We had a case not so long back where an Irish tourist punched his brother and his brother ended up in a coma. He was lucky to have a supportive brother who survived and pleaded for his brother.

Irish tourist Barry Lyttle avoids jail over one-punch attack on brother Patrick

This guy was not a dirt-bag. He was a normal guy, on holidays with his family, who did something stupid.

The case that started all this was when one of Australia's top sportsmen was killed after being hit by a bouncer. The guy was acquitted and the public uproar was such that the laws were changed. Other states fell into line enacting similar legislation.

Death of David Hookes friends struggle with verdict 10 years on

So what I would say to Steve and Hanzou, and anyone else who thinks this post is not relevant to martial arts, don't read it, but if you can't see the relevance to self defence you might like to stick around and you might learn something that might save you, or someone you care about, from making the same mistake these guys did.

That punching people is about the most dangerous thing you can do to a person?

Puts that choke idea into perspective.

 

[Hanzou]

OK, in this case the guy is a dirt bag. You only have to do a Google search to affirm that. But no, this thread had nothing to do with Hanzou although, as usual he has sought to disrupt it.

So what did Hanzou write in his post?


That is simplistic to say the least. You don't have to kill someone to get jail time.

We get people boasting about how many street fights they've had and people like Hanzou advocating choking people out. Young impressionable people read that sort of thing and reckon it is acceptable. Applying a choke can now be classed here as attempted murder. You can debate that until the cows come home but it won't change the law. If you can't justify your actions you will most likely go to jail for a long time.

In Australia that sort of behaviour can destroy your life. Steve constantly questions my credentials to teach self defence but you can rest assured we had an in depth discussion about it at Krav training last night.

We had a case not so long back where an Irish tourist punched his brother and his brother ended up in a coma. He was lucky to have a supportive brother who survived and pleaded for his brother.

Irish tourist Barry Lyttle avoids jail over one-punch attack on brother Patrick

This guy was not a dirt-bag. He was a normal guy, on holidays with his family, who did something stupid.

The case that started all this was when one of Australia's top sportsmen was killed after being hit by a bouncer. The guy was acquitted and the public uproar was such that the laws were changed. Other states fell into line enacting similar legislation.

Death of David Hookes friends struggle with verdict 10 years on

So what I would say to Steve and Hanzou, and anyone else who thinks this post is not relevant to martial arts, don't read it, but if you can't see the relevance to self defence you might like to stick around and you might learn something that might save you, or someone you care about, from making the same mistake these guys did.

You do realize that all of those situations involved punches where the person died from impact with the ground right? I'm not seeing what any of this has to do with chokes other than reaffirming my previous argument that choking someone out is a safer alternative to ending an altercation than kicking or punching them.

I'm also not seeing the self defense component here. If this guy was fighting for his life, maybe punching someone in the face and accidentally killing them wouldn't be viewed as a criminal act. In THIS case though, the guy flew off the handle because some teenagers were talking about his girlfriend, and he started beating on both of them. At no point was this guy, or his girlfriend's life in danger, so what's the self defense angle here? That you shouldn't punch or kick people in the street?

Noted, which is why I've always stated that grappling is a more preferred method for SD than striking, since you have more control over what you're doing to your opponent. Trading punches with someone isn't a good idea, especially on the street.

Finally, as I said in my initial post, d-bags pop up in every martial art. Look at Steven Segal. He studied Aikido, and is probably one of the worst people on the planet. I knew plenty of jerks in TKD, Shotokan, and Judo as well. You don't need to take the MMA-based arts to run into MA d-bags, they're just as prevalent in the traditional arts as they are in MMA.

 

[K-man]

You do realize that all of those situations involved punches where the person died from impact with the ground right? I'm not seeing what any of this has to do with chokes other than reaffirming my previous argument that choking someone out is a safer alternative to ending an altercation than kicking or punching them.

You do realise that I was the one who posted, right? If you can't understand then don't bother posting at all. That has been the problem in all the threads that you disrupt. You say you don't understand but in reality you refuse to understand.

I'm also not seeing the self defense component here. If this guy was fighting for his life, maybe punching someone in the face and accidentally killing them wouldn't be viewed as a criminal act. In THIS case though, the guy flew off the handle because some teenagers were talking about his girlfriend, and he started beating on both of them. At no point was this guy, or his girlfriend's life in danger, so what's the self defense angle here? That you shouldn't punch or kick people in the street?

Of course you don't. But then you don't understand self defence anyway, right?

Noted, which is why I've always stated that grappling is a more preferred method for SD than striking, since you have more control over what you're doing to your opponent. Trading punches with someone isn't a good idea, especially on the street.

No, grappling is not close to the best method for self defence but you already know that, right?

Finally, as I said in my initial post, d-bags pop up in every martial art. Look at Steven Segal. He studied Aikido, and is probably one of the worst people on the planet. I knew plenty of jerks in TKD, Shotokan, and Judo as well. You don't need to take the MMA-based arts to run into MA d-bags, they're just as prevalent in the traditional arts as they are in MMA.

Actually one of my Aikido training partners lived in America and was a student of Steven Seagal. He didn't have any problems and speaks highly of him, but what would he know? You must mix in the wrong circles. I haven't come across any jerks at all in my training. You really have had a sad journey in the martial arts haven't you? What with all the sub-par karate training you experienced, then having to train with a mob of jerks. Sad really.

 

[Hanzou]

You do realise that I was the one who posted, right? If you can't understand then don't bother posting at all. That has been the problem in all the threads that you disrupt. You say you don't understand but in reality you refuse to understand.

I understand the content just fine. I simply don't understand what point YOU are trying to make here. If you're trying to argue that I'm a bad influence for saying that chokes are a more humane and sensible way to end a confrontation, why would you use people killed by punches to make that point? People getting killed by punches reinforces my position that choking someone out is a better alternative.

Of course you don't. But then you don't understand self defence anyway, right?

I understand that someone saying off-collar things towards a female companion isn't a self defense situation.

No, grappling is not close to the best method for self defence but you already know that, right?

I didn't say best, I said "preferred". Again, your articles about people getting killed by punches kind of reinforces that stance.

Actually one of my Aikido training partners lived in America and was a student of Steven Seagal. He didn't have any problems and speaks highly of him, but what would he know?

And we have his ex-wife saying that he abused her, we have various actors in hollywood who said that Seagal physically attacked them on set, and you have various people discussing his pretty arrogant attitude. He's also a serial adulterer. But yeah, let's forget all that and believe your buddy who once lived in America and was once a student.

 

[K-man]

I understand the content just fine. I simply don't understand what point YOU are trying to make here. If you're trying to argue that I'm a bad influence for saying that chokes are a more humane and sensible way to end a confrontation, why would you use people killed by punches to make that point? People getting killed by punches reinforces my position that choking someone out is a better alternative.



I understand that someone saying off-collar things towards a female companion isn't a self defense situation.



I didn't say best, I said "preferred". Again, your articles about people getting killed by punches kind of reinforces that stance.



And we have his ex-wife saying that he abused her, we have various actors in hollywood who said that Seagal physically attacked them on set, and you have various people discussing his pretty arrogant attitude. He's also a serial adulterer. But yeah, let's forget all that and believe your buddy who once lived in America and was once a student.

Perhaps you should go back to the beginning and read the posts. I am not going to chase you down rabbit holes. If you don't want to discuss the issues I have posted then rack off and set up your own. I promise I won't even read it, let alone try to disrupt it.

 

[Hanzou]

Perhaps you should go back to the beginning and read the posts. I am not going to chase you down rabbit holes. If you don't want to discuss the issues I have posted then rack off and set up your own. I promise I won't even read it, let alone try to disrupt it.

Where's the disruption? I'm simply asking for the point of this thread. It's not about the danger of chokes (because every case in this thread is a strike), and it's not about self defense (because its not a SD situation), so what message are you trying to convey here?

Let me help you out; Are you in fact arguing that MMA types don't get the "cultured" training that TMA types get? Are you arguing that this guy wouldn't have done what he did if he had practiced Goju-Ryu or Aikido, instead of MMA?

 

[K-man]

Where's the disruption? I'm simply asking for the point of this thread. It's not about the danger of chokes (because every case in this thread is a strike), and it's not about self defense (because its not a SD situation), so what message are you trying to convey here?

Let me help you out; Are you in fact arguing that MMA types don't get the "cultured" training that TMA types get? Are you arguing that this guy wouldn't have done what he did if he had practiced Goju-Ryu or Aikido, instead of MMA?

As I said, read the posts and discuss the relevant issues or go away. Let me help you out. I have no desire to even try and discuss the distracting issues you continue to raise.

 

[Steve]

I went back and read all the posts so far. Almost all of them are simple comments regarding the legality of the situation. Most are along the lines of, "will be interesting to see how this turns out."

I'm struggling to see the complex, self defense spin you're putting on things now, K-man. Really, summing up what everyone else has said, we have a guy who was publicly intoxicated. He hit a guy who died, and is now in deep trouble as a result of poor judgement, bad luck and the severe legal ramifications in Australia.

Don't get me wrong. I see SOME self defense lessons here, but they are more in what I would call the "common sense" realm of self defense. Don't be a jerk. Don't drink to excess. Avoid places where others are drinking to excess. Have a wing man. All of these things are

This particular situation isn't rocket science.

So, instead of attacking Hanzou for really just being himself, let's make the discussion interesting and constructive. For example, I'm not sure choking someone is a better option. Better, I think, to avoid the situation altogether, and I know that in America, choking someone can get you into legal trouble as fast or faster than punching them. What are your thoughts, K-man? If you want to discuss the self defense aspects of this, do so and stop attacking anyone who you deem is posting incorrectly.

Another question I have is, what do you guys teach in your classes that would have helped either of these two individuals?

 

[Orange Lightning]

We have specialized one punch laws that put the crime almost in line with murder.

Do those laws apply to punching in the face specifically?

I think that we make me really antsy. I wouldn't have a guarantee that the other person wouldn't hit me in the head, even though I wasn't trying to hit him in the head. Dirty pool sort of.I would feel like the other person had an advantage, being able to escalate the violence at any time.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Well if we look at this situation from a self defense perspective if the person charged with the crime had learned awareness, avoidance and cultivated a code of conduct during his martial training we might not even be having this conversation. Unfortunately for him, the victim who is now deceased and all families involved he didn't. No, instead he struck someone and now, likely will be in prison if not for his entire life then a very long time. Just some food for thought....

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Hanzou, fyi people can die from being choked out as well. This thread is about this case where a strike hit someone and they then died. It is not about how grappling is better. It is particularly relevant to self defense training in that we can look at what happened, what led up to the violence and what could have been done differently not just by the person who will be on trial but also by the victim. What could have prevented this from happening?

 

[Jenna]

Another question I have is, what do you guys teach in your classes that would have helped either of these two individuals?

The person attacked who fell might have benefitted from simple ukemi.. I think EVERYONE would benefit from having a decent ukemi ability in their repertoire.. Jx

 

[Steve]

Well if we look at this situation from a self defense perspective if the person charged with the crime had learned awareness, avoidance and cultivated a code of conduct during his martial training we might not even be having this conversation. Unfortunately for him, the victim who is now deceased and all families involved he didn't. No, instead he struck someone and now, likely will be in prison if not for his entire life then a very long time. Just some food for thought....

I think avoidance for sure. I'm not sure how awareness would have helped him here. Can you elaborate on that, Brian?

Regarding the code of conduct, a moral compass is developed in many ways. While I totally agree that it's a shame he didn't cultivate one in his martial arts training, I also think that martial arts training isn't the only, or even the best way to learn how to behave with courtesy and respect, and to avoid unnecessary trouble.

What do you guys think the victim here could have done differently? If you were the victim, what would you have done to protect yourself? Would you have intervened differently? Chosen not to intervene at all?