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Nate_Hoopes
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- Thread Starter
- #41
I have no idea about the parker, site, the tracy site is http://www.tracyskarate.com Good luck with the searching for information, it is there its just hard as hell to find.
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WilliamTLear
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #42
www.edparkersikka.com
:idunno:
Tell me if you find any lengthy articles aimed against Mr. Tracy here.
Billy Lear
:idunno:
Tell me if you find any lengthy articles aimed against Mr. Tracy here.
Billy Lear
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Kirk
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #43
Just out of curiosity, are there any of you out there that have
done the reverse of Rob? Started in the Parker system, achieved
a high rank, and then went over to the Tracy system?
Goldendragon7
Grandmaster
Rob, I'm sure there have been some "Parker to Tracy" changes but far less than the reverse. There could be a number of reasons for this, the main reason would be to move and find no Parker studios, the other could be a dissatisfied student with an instructor or many more.
The reason there are so many Tracy to Parker change overs is simply the fact that when the Individuals examine the material from both systems , it becomes clear where the material started and by whom. Also there is far more depth of knowledge in the Parker Studios. Keep in mind however, this is greatly dependent upon the Incividual instructor that one gets. There are plenty of Parker Instructors out there that don't have a lot of the available material at their grasp due to weak instruction lineage.
There are also a number of "specialists" out there that are good at one thing or another and do not really teach the complete system. For example ... some instructors are good and enjoy sparring so they do a lot of that in their studios and the rest of the art takes a back seat. On the other hand... there are those instructors that "take off" on the "self defense" portiion of our art ane yet others that specialize in the forms and sets.
So as you can see there are a great number of variables to the Art of Kenpo. Don't forget however who founded it and continued to develop and "upgrade" it until his death....... Ed Parker!
:asian:
The reason there are so many Tracy to Parker change overs is simply the fact that when the Individuals examine the material from both systems , it becomes clear where the material started and by whom. Also there is far more depth of knowledge in the Parker Studios. Keep in mind however, this is greatly dependent upon the Incividual instructor that one gets. There are plenty of Parker Instructors out there that don't have a lot of the available material at their grasp due to weak instruction lineage.
There are also a number of "specialists" out there that are good at one thing or another and do not really teach the complete system. For example ... some instructors are good and enjoy sparring so they do a lot of that in their studios and the rest of the art takes a back seat. On the other hand... there are those instructors that "take off" on the "self defense" portiion of our art ane yet others that specialize in the forms and sets.
So as you can see there are a great number of variables to the Art of Kenpo. Don't forget however who founded it and continued to develop and "upgrade" it until his death....... Ed Parker!
:asian:
Doc
Senior Master
Mitose was not messed over by a student. Long before he was arrested tried and convicted of that last murder, he had a long history and arrest record of criminal extortion and rape. He had been arrested for murder before but manage to be released because witnesses recanted. He was a con man, and according to Parker showed no significant skill in the martial arts what so ever. he even attempted to envolve Parker in a con scheme when he came to the mainand pretending as usual to be a priest.
And for the gullible who think Mitose was the "victim" of the hapless killer Terry Lee..
Mitose was convicted by a jury. obviously he didn't plead guilty, did he?- so his weak little ploy of suggesting that he was "ultimately" responsible as the teacher IS JUST IRRELEVANT. The jury didn't send him away because of this dumb attempt to gain sympathy from the them back-firing.
witness testimony from his victims, his criminal track record and his own admissions to pass criminality led him to the slammer. Our justice system isn't fail-proof but it works fairly well the majority of the time and worked just fine in this case.
the "assassin" Terry Lee was a clumsy killer that didn't show much martial art skill at that time- his good behavior in prison and clean living since doing his time, point to a naive and easily manipulated man led astray by a dangerous con artist.
as to Mitose's peaceful ways and 1500 year old system- here's an excerpt from an interview from some one who knew him personally. Adriano Emperado.
CN: Mitose was a controversial figure who spent the last years of his life in prison. Can you tell us something about the Mitose you knew in Hawaii?
EMPERADO: When Mitose taught Kenpo Jujitsu he always emphasized his religious philosophy. He dressed as a minister, carried rosary beads, and chanted like a Buddhist. He always stressed that you were never to use kenpo, even for self defense. His workout was that of traditional Japanese karate. We did makiwara training, some jujitsu takedowns and throws, and worked on developing the one punch kill. We also had one kata; the Naihanchi kata.
CN: What did Mitose call his art and who did he learn it from?
EMPERADO: Mitose called his art Kenpo Jujitsu. He told us that he had learned it from Choki Motobu. I never heard the term "Kosho Ryu Kenpo" until he went to prison and some other instructors visited him and got master certificates in Kosho Ryu. I also never heard from him the story about the Kosho family temple.
CN: So Mitose was a highly peaceful and spiritual man?
EMPERADO: Not really. You see in 1953 Professor Mitose paid a unannounced visit to my Palama Settlement school. He brought Dr. Arthur Keave and Masaichi Oshiro with him. He asked if they could demonstrate some techniques to my students. So I said ok, and Oshiro proceeded to demonstrate the Naihanchi kata. I then consented to demonstrate some of our Kajukenbo techniques. When all was done Mitose told me that me that I should call my system Kenpo Jujitsu since he considered it to be rooted in his system. I told him that I couldn't because there were 5 creators who contributed their arts to the system. He then became enraged and threatened to come back the next day with a samurai sword and kill me. Me and some of my students waited for his return, but he never showed. The next thing I heard he had gone to California. Years later I heard that he was in prison for having a student kill an old man.
CN: So the Kosho Ryu we see today in magazines is not the Kenpo Jujitsu you remember from Hawaii?
EMPERADO: Like I said I had never heard of Kosho Ryu Kenpo. Mitose called it Kenpo Jujitsu and some of the Japanese said that the traditional name should be Shorinji Kempo. The instructors who got the master certificates while visiting Mitose in prison were all from different systems, and I'm sure that he didn't teach them kenpo in prison. In fact Thomas Barro Mitose was a Kajukenbo black belt under my student, Joe Halbuna.
full interview at:
http://www.interactivesmack.com/kajukenbo/sijointerview.html
Doc
Senior Master
Why is it when I say these things everybody gets mad at me. I said it years ago. Mitose was a con man and he thought martial arts was a good cover.
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Rainman
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #48
Quit thinking so much-they will attack you- your words to me-
:asian:
Doc
Senior Master
Originally posted by Rainman
Quit thinking so much-they will attack you- your words to me-
:asian:
Duly noted
Goldendragon7
Grandmaster
I said it as well.......... but what do we know..........:idunno:
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Rob_Broad
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #52
Quite true. The more information out there the harder it is for the BS to be taken seriously.
Sigung86
2nd Black Belt
Rob,
I'm probably putting my wee-wee in the EPAK whacker here, but here it goes. I don't really know what kind of problem you had with Al Tracy. I don't think it really matters to any of us, but I kind of get tired of hearing how crappy my art is. An art that I have been in since 1971, an art that I have used in the defense of my life, successfully obviously, on a number of occasions. An art that I have passed on to a number of SpecOps people, who have also used it in their pursuits, again successfully.
I'm not all that loyal to Tracy's, in the greater scheme of things. You can feel free to ask Dennis Conatser, or perhaps the good Doctor (having been one of his more vocal defenders in other milieu). I am working my way through various elements of EPAK now. Probably would do more if there were an EPAK instructor, that I would work with, who was closer to me than the inimitable Golden Dragon.
I don't know if you really mean to be insulting. I hope that you are not, intentionally, however, it does get a little old.
EPAK folk often wonder why more Tracy Folk don't come over. Yet, on the part of many, the Tracy folk feel like all we get is a ration of superiority and sniffing of the nose. I won't speak for anyone else after saying that, but I wouldn't really be interested in being in a group of people who have that point of view.
Insofar as shady deals. Those do not apply to all Tracy practicioners, and I think I feel like you apply the whole misfortune that you had to me personally... Perhaps you don't feel that way, but it comes across to me that way.
Parker and Tracy both have pulled questionable acts in their times. It was the part of getting the commercial message out to all the paying students possible. That's business.
Hope you understand that I simply had to say something, or just get pissed enough about all the interminible Tracy vs Parker crap, that has been going on for 40+ years, and simply quit coming to this forum.
I now stand ready for the usual suspects to beat on me.
Thanks,
Dan Farmer
I'm probably putting my wee-wee in the EPAK whacker here, but here it goes. I don't really know what kind of problem you had with Al Tracy. I don't think it really matters to any of us, but I kind of get tired of hearing how crappy my art is. An art that I have been in since 1971, an art that I have used in the defense of my life, successfully obviously, on a number of occasions. An art that I have passed on to a number of SpecOps people, who have also used it in their pursuits, again successfully.
I'm not all that loyal to Tracy's, in the greater scheme of things. You can feel free to ask Dennis Conatser, or perhaps the good Doctor (having been one of his more vocal defenders in other milieu). I am working my way through various elements of EPAK now. Probably would do more if there were an EPAK instructor, that I would work with, who was closer to me than the inimitable Golden Dragon.
I don't know if you really mean to be insulting. I hope that you are not, intentionally, however, it does get a little old.
EPAK folk often wonder why more Tracy Folk don't come over. Yet, on the part of many, the Tracy folk feel like all we get is a ration of superiority and sniffing of the nose. I won't speak for anyone else after saying that, but I wouldn't really be interested in being in a group of people who have that point of view.
Insofar as shady deals. Those do not apply to all Tracy practicioners, and I think I feel like you apply the whole misfortune that you had to me personally... Perhaps you don't feel that way, but it comes across to me that way.
Parker and Tracy both have pulled questionable acts in their times. It was the part of getting the commercial message out to all the paying students possible. That's business.
Hope you understand that I simply had to say something, or just get pissed enough about all the interminible Tracy vs Parker crap, that has been going on for 40+ years, and simply quit coming to this forum.
I now stand ready for the usual suspects to beat on me.
Thanks,
Dan Farmer
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Rob_Broad
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #54
My comment was not directed at any group or style. I simply stated "Quite true. The more information out there the harder it is for the BS to be taken seriously. " The quite true was agreeing that what Goldendragon and Doc know is about the true history of kenpo is more than many out there and more than some want to hear.
The rest of my post was talking about the martial arts in general. I am very big on the sharing of knowledge, and I feel the more open we are about things in the martial arts the less chance there is of Con Artists takng advantage of people, and so called mystical martial artists spreading bad information on the public.
As for my opinion about Al Tracy, it is just that my opinion. I personally prefer EPAK over the Tracy system, and if it were not for the politics of the martial arts I probably would not have found that I prefer EPAK. The Tracys(back when it was Jim and Al) did many good things for the kenpo community, I personally think things changed when it became Al and Pat. And as i have stated before Tracy's Kenpo is better than no kenpo at all, simply meaning if there was no EPAK school where I lived I would be at a Tracy's school beofre any other style. I hope I have made thngs a little clearer.
The rest of my post was talking about the martial arts in general. I am very big on the sharing of knowledge, and I feel the more open we are about things in the martial arts the less chance there is of Con Artists takng advantage of people, and so called mystical martial artists spreading bad information on the public.
As for my opinion about Al Tracy, it is just that my opinion. I personally prefer EPAK over the Tracy system, and if it were not for the politics of the martial arts I probably would not have found that I prefer EPAK. The Tracys(back when it was Jim and Al) did many good things for the kenpo community, I personally think things changed when it became Al and Pat. And as i have stated before Tracy's Kenpo is better than no kenpo at all, simply meaning if there was no EPAK school where I lived I would be at a Tracy's school beofre any other style. I hope I have made thngs a little clearer.
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vincefuess
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #55
If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is usually a duck. In all my research over many years I have NEVER found one piece of evidence other than heresay that Mitose was who or what he claimed to be.
I am still waiting for irrefutable proof that there was even a Kosho Ryu Clan in Japan, and if there was- how was Mitose the grand master? Every other clan still has descendants in representation of some form, with legitimate and proven documentation of fact. Were they killed and all their records destroyed in Hiroshima? Nagasaki?
I have found piles and piles of inormation that paint him of dubious character, to say the least. Everything about the guy was smoke and mirrors, I don't care what some Folsom prison guard has to say.
The cream has a way of rising to the top, it is the natural order. Mitose has never risen. And believe me, I started from the OTHER side of the debate- I thought he was what he and some others purported him to have been. The overwhelming evidence (and lack thereof) swayed my opinion, and my opinion is not easy to sway. Oddly enough, all of this stemmed from initial research I did for my black belt thesis. One question led to another, to another, to a hundred more. It's funny I continue that same line of research to this day! The thickness of the clouds seem to suggest the answer is right before us.
I am still waiting for irrefutable proof that there was even a Kosho Ryu Clan in Japan, and if there was- how was Mitose the grand master? Every other clan still has descendants in representation of some form, with legitimate and proven documentation of fact. Were they killed and all their records destroyed in Hiroshima? Nagasaki?
I have found piles and piles of inormation that paint him of dubious character, to say the least. Everything about the guy was smoke and mirrors, I don't care what some Folsom prison guard has to say.
The cream has a way of rising to the top, it is the natural order. Mitose has never risen. And believe me, I started from the OTHER side of the debate- I thought he was what he and some others purported him to have been. The overwhelming evidence (and lack thereof) swayed my opinion, and my opinion is not easy to sway. Oddly enough, all of this stemmed from initial research I did for my black belt thesis. One question led to another, to another, to a hundred more. It's funny I continue that same line of research to this day! The thickness of the clouds seem to suggest the answer is right before us.
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Chiduce
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #56
To put it lightly, they all laid claim to being body demolition men of some sort at that particular time in modern day martial arts history. Mitose just got caught! Master David Johnson, my sifu's instructor states that "Mitose was a crazy man, whom was a out of control". Sifu Clinard (aka. Jimmy Bird) is into his 50's and Master Johnson is in to his golden years in age!
Sincerely, In Humility;
Chiduce!
Sincerely, In Humility;
Chiduce!
kelly keltner
Black Belt
If Mitose had time to punch someone in the foot. What would have happened if he really meant to hurt somebody.
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He had time because the individual stood there and let him.kelly keltner said:
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monkey-a-go-go
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- Thread Starter
- #59
Fellows, First off great forum and discussion. Mitose is one of the most intersting characters in martial arts history. Check out his business relationship with Chow. Also his Aikido connection which was another temple donation scam. Ever heard of Mutsu Mizuho? His pre -war kempo book? I am sure Doc has. If you ever get a chance compare it to Mitose 's book. Very interesting. Mizuho's lineage? Otsuka of Wadoryu KENPO JIUJITSU fame and Funakoshi's shotokan/shotokai. Mizuho along with Higaonna and others vistited hawaii and trained with existing karatekas. This stuff is finally getting around. Mitose's book is a good look at 1930's japanese karate along with some Okazaki jiujitsu. Another interesting link is Mitose- Trias. In Trias' book My hand is my sword the Koshoryu crest is in the background of a photo. Trias claims Motobu lineage but his art doesn't look anything like Chosei Motobu's karate. Their naihanchi is different also. Lots of other little things like Mitose's middle knuckle strike - a Funakoshi favorite not Motobu. The Tracy's in a weird way have a better lineage than they might realize : ) Keep it coming!
KenpoDave
2nd Black Belt
WilliamTLear said:
I'm curious, are there any lengthy articles aimed against Ed Parker at www.tracyskarate.com?
