Minor venting session

[Tez3]

To the OP, I would tell her I do not discuss religion and if she brings it up to you again just ignore her. Try to understand that just by "being" Christians no matter what variety (Catholic or Protestant) we are all called by Christ to be witnesses to our Faith. Some people are more enthusiastic than others, especially one's newly introduced into the Faith.

Being Catholic myself I do not force my Faith on anyone if it comes up in discussion (It has in several occasions because of teaching Ju-Jitsu) I try to explain to the best of my ability why I believe what I believe (As taught by the Magisterium and the Catechism) and try to dispell the ignorance and misunderstanding about Catholicism and Christianity in general. I will not argue or fight with them, I will just present it the best way I can with love and understanding. If they attack me or get argumenative I thank them for their time and input and end it. Jesus never beat anyone over the head (OK, except for that time in the Temple. LOL) or tried to ram it down people's throats. He just spoke the truth, if people listened they listened if not...not.

Michael

No, I don't understand that, it's nothing to do with me what your (or anyone elses) religion is and I'd really prefer it to stay that way so I don't want people "witnessing" at me in the least! quite honestly? I find it offensive to be approached by such people and they will be told that.

 

[Carol]

If this is happening at work, you likely have recourse. Typically, religious actions like prayer and general conversation is fine as long as it isn't offending anyone. The point that it does, the person should stop and if they don't stop, they can be made to stop.

((((HUGS ANDY))))

Ouch, Andy...this is not good my friend.

You know I care about you and you know I'm your friend. I understand some of your views on religion. And I understand you're families views. I've given a hug to your mom when she had tears in her eyes recounting a story.

Your feelings are absolutely justified. The problem is, your actions aren't so easy to justify, even though they are understandable.

There is recourse available absolutely. Unfortunately mouthing off profanity to her was not it. It may have made you feel better, it may have shut her up, but it makes the situation a lot worse. Which means, unfortunately, that this may not be the end of the situation because you just gave her sufficient reason to take recourse against you.

You're a good guy and a hard worker so I am hoping....seriously hoping....that this is the end of the story. But, it may not be. Please watch yourself and step carefully. This isn't not a good time for any of us to be risking trouble on the job.

Please keep us all posted. Extra fingers crossed for you.

 

[seasoned]

My 2 cents. Although, it may not be worth that much in this economy. J “Analogy” if I may. A brand new martial artist, with a few months under their belt, feels that everyone needs to know self defense. You will sometimes see them in all kinds of settings, showing off what they just learned. Could be at work, at a party, or anywhere else that is inappropriate. Now, with respect to religion, I also feel there is a time and a place, and uninvited, is never the right approach, and causes more harm then good. As with a seasoned martial artist, or a truly touched person of faith, it is not their head knowledge that dictates their life, and it shouldn’t. I have experienced both above novice, in various situations in life, and it makes me wonder, where are they coming from. I can only discern that knowledge gives them a sense of power, knowing that they have some secrets that need to be divulged to the masses. In reality, IMHO it is a sensing feeling, heart knowledge, that people will read loud and clear, without a word being spoken. I am very leery of people that wear their Gi’s in the grocery store, as well as those that choose to wear religious items in public. Both give me a feeling of wanting to distancing myself from them in a hurry.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

((((HUGS ANDY))))

Ouch, Andy...this is not good my friend.

You know I care about you and you know I'm your friend. I understand some of your views on religion. And I understand you're families views. I've given a hug to your mom when she had tears in her eyes recounting a story.

Your feelings are absolutely justified. The problem is, your actions aren't so easy to justify, even though they are understandable.

There is recourse available absolutely. Unfortunately mouthing off profanity to her was not it. It may have made you feel better, it may have shut her up, but it makes the situation a lot worse. Which means, unfortunately, that this may not be the end of the situation because you just gave her sufficient reason to take recourse against you.

You're a good guy and a hard worker so I am hoping....seriously hoping....that this is the end of the story. But, it may not be. Please watch yourself and step carefully. This isn't not a good time for any of us to be risking trouble on the job.

Please keep us all posted. Extra fingers crossed for you.

True enough, but I'll just put it this way,that I am by no means the only, or the most prolific, user of profanity at my job( even among our bosses), that I have never in my employment history here been called into our boss' office over a problem, and she has before. We will see if there becomes a need for me to ask him to do so again.

 

[Carol]

True enough, but I'll just put it this way,that I am by no means the only, or the most prolific, user of profanity at my job( even among our bosses), that I have never in my employment history here been called into our boss' office over a problem, and she has before. We will see if there becomes a need for me to ask him to do so again.

*whew* Thanks. One less worry.

 

[jks9199]

Regarding the "call to witness." To me, the most effective witness to your faith -- whatever faith that might be -- is the life you live, which should embody your faith. This speaks louder than someone yelling from a rooftop about what they believe.

Returning to the original topic -- dumb question, but have you simply asked her to respect your beliefs and leave you out of the religious discussion? Often, I've found, that nobody simply directly asks something like that when a problem like this exists... They've tried comments, hints, and all sorts of other things - but not simply saying "Please, don't discuss this with me."

 

[Tez3]

True enough, but I'll just put it this way,that I am by no means the only, or the most prolific, user of profanity at my job( even among our bosses), that I have never in my employment history here been called into our boss' office over a problem, and she has before. We will see if there becomes a need for me to ask him to do so again.

Us Brits will have to Pm you words we use that aren't known to Americans and vice versa!
Carol please hug Andy back for me please!

 

[astrobiologist]

"For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."
-Carl Sagan


I usually won't discuss my philosophical beliefs online or in large groups. It is truly difficult to have a well-rounded philosophical conversation about the nature of religion with many people who are religious. They get very defensive, they usually attack reason with unqualified opinion, and they usually have a hard time accepting that their belief is not shared by everyone. That's a generalization, but for me it is usually the case.

Though I am not a religious person, I have spent a lot of time studying religion and the purpose it serves for humans. Though I am against a lot of what religion has done in the past, I try to respect the views of others in so much that I'm not attacking them or insulting them directly (though I do at times insult a religious dogma or myth, and some do take offense to that. There really are people who believe in talking snakes and think that dinosaurs never existed). I have run into the situation often in my life where a religious person is pushing their diety worship upon me. I generally try to avoid getting offended and relying on anger or profanity to 'get back at them'. I usually let them know that I am not interested in their beliefs. If they continue on, I'll bring out the big guns about the history of religion or about what rationality and thought have brought the world in comparison to religion. I try to avoid going any further than that. What the religious person wants is for you to get angry. It will prove to them that you need the salvation they preach. They will not see your flaw as general human nature, which is the way I see their belief.

You're probably at the point now where your best recourse is to maintain the high road. Don't let her trick you into getting upset or getting angry. Just let her know, with a sincere tone, that you have no interest in what she's selling. Like any 'good' salesperson, she's probably got plans for her rebuttle, but just hold your ground. It may take a while, and it may be a pain in your butt, but eventually she'll probably stop trying her snare on you.

Just count yourself lucky that you live in a time and a place in the world where you can openly express your disinterest in worship of the local diety without being publically disposed. It is our duty to continue the movement towards religious freedom for our children and our children's children.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Regarding the "call to witness." To me, the most effective witness to your faith -- whatever faith that might be -- is the life you live, which should embody your faith. This speaks louder than someone yelling from a rooftop about what they believe.

Returning to the original topic -- dumb question, but have you simply asked her to respect your beliefs and leave you out of the religious discussion? Often, I've found, that nobody simply directly asks something like that when a problem like this exists... They've tried comments, hints, and all sorts of other things - but not simply saying "Please, don't discuss this with me."

Yep. Like I said I told her this was the wrong subject to talk about with me.

Which at long last she appears to have twigged judging by today.

 

[Brian King]

I wonder if I alone find it ironicly amusing and sad that you work at a place that profanity is tolerated (prolific) from the floor up to the bosses but somebody speaking the name of God raises a fuss. Shows the power of a word I guess.

Brian King

 

[Aikicomp]

Thing was though, the god of the Bible was the god of the Israelites nobody elses,

Um, that's because the the Isrealites deemed everyone other than a Jew to be a Gentile thus not deserving of God's Law.

he wasn't forced on anyone until the Christians came along!

You must be referring to the so called "Christians" who were bent on greed, power and conquest. No true Christian would force anything on anyone.

No other religion, not even Islam, has demanded that people convert to what they believe.

That's odd, I can name at least one or two...let's see....how about....... the Romans (Pagan, during the Christian persecution) and the Japanese (Pagan, during the great expulsion) How am I doing?

No other religion has sent out so many missionaries, ruined entire cultures, massacred so many people as Christianity.

Really? perhaps. However, many cultures have done just what you say Christianity has done ie: Egyptians, Romans, Persians, Mongols, Huns, Chinese, Japanese, Vikings, Americans, Africans...shall I go on?
Oh yes, Do not forget about the British Empire as well. If memory serves the British museum is filled with things stolen by force after conquest, massacre and ruining of cultures.

It's not about RELIGION.................... It's about MEN.

The Crusades still reverbarate in the Middle East and has repercussions even now. Islam has never forgotten them and we reap what was sown then,now.

Yes it does, and thanks to all the predjudice, curruption and greed. Although that's not why the crusades where started in the first place.

I don't know how religion comes up in a martial arts class tbh, in all the years I've been practising it never has.

You're lucky, I've had to deal with it several time from new students and/or their parents.

It's not RELIGION that has destroyed, killed and plundered throughout history, it is evil and corrupt MEN that have used religion in a way that it was never intended to be used.
no offense intended just saw some general statements that needed clarification.

Michael

 

[Aikicomp]

No, I don't understand that, it's nothing to do with me what your (or anyone elses) religion is and I'd really prefer it to stay that way so I don't want people "witnessing" at me in the least! quite honestly? I find it offensive to be approached by such people and they will be told that.

I can understand that, I can't tell you how many times people see my Crucifix around my neck and ask me "Are you saved? Which I find presumptuous. I usually answer " I'm doing the best I can. I've been Baptized, recieve the Sacraments and....."

That's about the time they figure out I'm Catholic and they just look at me strangely and walk away.

Michael

 

[Andy Moynihan]

I wonder if I alone find it ironicly amusing and sad that you work at a place that profanity is tolerated (prolific) from the floor up to the bosses but somebody speaking the name of God raises a fuss. Shows the power of a word I guess.

Brian King

It wasn't the name of God that I raised a fuss over, it was this person's diisrespectful, preaching attitude after having been notified repeatedly I didn't appreciate it.

 

[jks9199]

I wonder if I alone find it ironicly amusing and sad that you work at a place that profanity is tolerated (prolific) from the floor up to the bosses but somebody speaking the name of God raises a fuss. Shows the power of a word I guess.

Brian King

The problem isn't that the person in question is saying "God." Or even that they are religious. The problem is that, after having been asked to stop, they are continuing to force their beliefs on a coworker. It would be no different if the topic were atheism or politics, of if she were asking him out.

 

[JBrainard]

Please excuse this post if it is kind of "stream of consciousness," as I am operating on 3 hours of sleep right now...
As for the original "theme" of this thread, usually the way I dress pretty much tells people "I'm not interested." When the "Bible thumpers" I encounter aren't scared away by the spikes, inverted crosses, pentagrams, etc; I simply start a polite dialog with them. I've noticed that these people like to preach at people, not converse with them. So when they start talking about how great their brand of Christianity is, I smile, say things like "that's cool," and then begin to draw parallels between what they are preaching and what other religions teach. I've found that informing them that Christianity can easily cohabitate with other religious beliefs (like Buddhism) throws them off their game. To date, they always give up at this point.
I don't get mad any more, it's kind of fun and interesting to just roll with it and see what happens. The confused look I get when I tell them that the two religions that make the most sense to me are Zen Buddhism and atheistic Satanism is pretty amusing as well.

 

[Brian King]

Andy Moynihan Wrote

“It wasn't the name of God that I raised a fuss over, it was this person's diisrespectful, preaching attitude after having been notified repeatedly I didn't appreciate it.

Andy I can understand that certainly. I do think that you handled it perhaps as best as you were able to even if you did so in a childish manner. Do you do the same with all that are disrespectful of your wishes or all that have attitudes that you do not appreciate?

I work in Seattle where being offended is a state past time for many. Prior to 9/11 it had gotten so bad that single men were advised to NOT talk to ANY women at work other than strictly work related conversations and to keep those very brief. We were also advised to not talk to other men about anything other than work topics as anyone else with-in hearing range could claim harassment if they did not like what we were talking about. The subject did not matter. There were cases raised about guys talking about sports because the conversation excluded the women as they did not know anything about the sports, there were cases raised about talking about hunting or other shooting sports as they created fear and anxiety amongst others that might be listening, we were warned that it might be offensive to wear cologne if we happened to put too much on. These are all examples cited at required HR meetings and told failure to comply was subject to termination. I rolled my eyes and thought then as now that too many are selfish little children who allow themselves to become outraged and offended at the slightest little provocation. I thought so then and I still think so. Luckily things have settled down and the paranoia that you might offend somebody has relaxed somewhat.

I can understand that you do not want to hear the word. I can understand that you told her in plain English that you do not want to hear the word. I understand that you told her that she was being disrespectful of your wishes and that you thought she was being preachy and self righteous. IF you told her that in those terms, clear concise language with no grays, she was in the wrong to care enough to continue to talk to you. If you did not tell her in clear English then some of the responsibility I feel may be yours. I am ready to admit that I am wrong in this Andy, I was not there and you are, just my opinion based on what you wrote and my thinking how I would react if I were placed in either of the three positions ( you, her and a witness to the confrontations). A year and half friendly working relationship seems like it might be a shame to lose that just because poor communication skills and styles. Seems a waste to me. That you are considering having her hauled into the bosses office and perhaps fired especially these days where I am told jobs are hard to come by, seems overkill and petty to me. :idunno:

Lives gets a lot less stressful if you can develop a thick skin and not let what people say get under your skin and cause you to react to those words.

Good luck to you sir.
Regards
Brian King

I still find it amusing that it is ok and normal where you work to interlace vulgarity in the conversations but heaven forbid interlacing belief related.

 

[Brian King]

JKS9199 wrote:

“The problem isn't that the person in question is saying "God." Or even that they are religious. The problem is that, after having been asked to stop, they are continuing to force their beliefs on a coworker. It would be no different if the topic were atheism or politics, of if she were asking him out.”

I understand the asking out thing and how it relates to this conversation. But I am also aware of guys asking out women and the woman saying no by saying I am busy tonight or have other plans. In the woman’s mind she said NO but the guy heard not tonight but some other night would be great and I am really looking forward to getting to know you better and hope that you ask me out again every day for the next week.
Best communication is two way. I think that it would be childish and over reacting if in the example above the guy asks the lady out for a second time and she curses at him and goes to the boss claiming harassment by this stalking fanatic.

“they are continuing to force their beliefs on a coworker”

Ah see I didn’t realize that she was his boss and was demanding that he convert to her faith and go to her church. I thought she was a fellow employee and that she was telling him about a book she was reading/listening to.

Jeez, It is so simple to avoid these things. Go into football mode and ignore the person beside you, nod your head after each play and now and then grunt noncommittally, or start a second conversation with someone else, or change the subject of the conversation. Don’t like the subject of the book review talk about a book that you did like or even better a book that you both enjoyed. It is not cute when a two year old throws a temper tantrum in the aisles of a grocery store cause they can’t get their way, it is even less so when an adult resorts to bullying and vulgar language as a means of controlling the communication and getting their way.

See I do think it is about saying “God”. I wonder if the thread would have gone the same way if the lady had been talking about a Rap artist and a concert she went to and the OP did not want to hear about it. If he was considering going to the bosses office cause she was talking about this or that rap song and it annoyed him. Would the lady be called a cultist, a fanatic and the OP advised to seek actions against her? Would the OP be praised for an outburst of vulgarity to the lady in those circumstances? How about if the offending party wasn’t a lady but was a man instead and the story continued that after the outburst of vulgarity it followed up with not just more verbal violence but with physical violence and either the offending party or the OP a highly trained martial artist ended up dead and bleeding on the lunch room floor? Would the initial outburst of vulgarity be considered justified wise and deserved?

Oh well, doesn’t really matter to me just some thoughts that were pinging around in brain.

Regards
Brian King

 

[KELLYG]

I think that if a line of conversation is brought up and it makes people uncomfortable, religion, sex, politics,etc., and they say in no uncertain terms that this is not something that they want to discuss. (period). Which is the feeling that I get from (op) and the other person insists on discussing it you can either leave or they get what they deserve as a retort in reply. I feel that she is being disrespectful to you by insisting that you hear her message. If the subtle approach did not work , the direct approach did not work, then escalate it up the chain of command until you are satisfied.

 

[astrobiologist]

I think that if a line of conversation is brought up and it makes people uncomfortable, religion, sex, politics,etc., and they say in no uncertain terms that this is not something that they want to discuss. (period). Which is the feeling that I get from (op) and the other person insists on discussing it you can either leave or they get what they deserve as a retort in reply. I feel that she is being disrespectful to you by insisting that you hear her message. If the subtle approach did not work , the direct approach did not work, then escalate it up the chain of command until you are satisfied.

I agree. This doesn't sound like Andy heard the word 'god' and then flipped out on the lady.

 

[KELLYG]

I work in a predominately male environment. All I have to say is TMI (too much information) the conversation shifts to being more civilized or the subject is changed.