Meridian and Vital Point Death Touch

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by isshinryuronin, Feb 13, 2020.

  1. isshinryuronin

    isshinryuronin Blue Belt

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    Count (Juan Rapheal) Dante, well known from 1960's comic book ads, self-professed "Deadliest Man Alive" and master of Dim Mak made secret death touches cool. Kill Bill's bad guy met his end with the "five point exploding heart touch", dropping dead after 5 steps. Do such secret and forbidden techniques really exist?

    Send $20 dollars to my Nigerian bank account (I must remain anonymous or my life will be forfeit) and you, too, can become a Master of Death.

    Now, for serious discussion:

    Some of you may be familiar with the Bubishi, wherein such things are discussed. Written/compiled in the 1700's-early 1800's? it includes the concept of Shichen, the theory based on 12 two hour cycles of blood/ki flow. It states that particular parts of the body are especially vulnerable to attack at certain times of the day. The organs and vital points on arteries or meridians in the body each have their "special time." Attacking them with this in mind can result in death, instantly, or within days or weeks.

    Fantasy, or is there some truth mixed in? After all, acupuncture was thought to be fantasy in the West just a few decades ago, but is now accepted as valid.
     
  2. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    I don't think that's the case. The stuff that I've read suggests it's mainly the placebo effect.

    Seems like such a large range of time that it's a coincidence.
     
  3. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple MT Moderator Staff Member

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    There are plenty of articles/studies suggesting its nore than just placebo. If you remind me on Saturday I can pull the ones up I've got bookmarked.
     
  4. Christopher Adamchek

    Christopher Adamchek Blue Belt

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    I have read that section of the bubishi and other similar research on the matter
    in terms of your times of day question if i remember off the top of my head (dont have the book atm) the heart meridian was to be attacked at like 11am or noon and i found a significant portion of heart attacks happen at that time. so if you attack the person with techniques that are more likely to affect or stress out the heart at that time then you could possibly induce a heart attack.

    that section of the bubishi is based on some interesting chinese medicine and observations which do have some basis for their creation even if they missed causation vs correlation
     
  5. Rat

    Rat 3rd Black Belt

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    I repeat my statment, i am not falling for that one again. Both Nigerian banking and death touches. :p


    i stand by pressure points stand as a primitive form of chinese anatomy mapping/medicine. Same with the 5 elements and each counteracts each other etc etc. It clearly has some basis or was worked within old healing tradtions (if it has any history to it in this regard) or it would have been deleted long ago. I have also read up that tradtional medicine practices and martial arts were connected in some manner in some places. Obviously needless to say modern medicine has driven out the bulk of tradtional medicine, for better or worse. And old connections and tradtions have died, been altered or are dying. Modernity has done that to many tradtions.

    The martial aspect of pressure points might be along some tradtion of healers also being able to maim and destroy bodies. There is just a lot of ******** surrounding pressure points. Plus, if you watch some demos and the like, if you can hit somone in the bicep in the right spot again and again, you will cause immense pain, the issue is thats not reliable in a proper fight. Fun to know, limited use in fighting, leads me to belive it was just kept around as part of some martial-medicine tradtion to pass down the knowledge.

    Edit: In other words of the points that work and cause immense pain and have martial application, that **** lovely * hurts, but hitting that point against a resisting opponent and on adrenline is another matter. Context is/has been lost.

    *The filter apprantly has butchered what that word is, read it as blank.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2020
  6. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

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    A hard strike to the sternum at just the right moment can interrupt the heart rythym, causing fibrillation and death. It happens several times every year in sports like baseball and football. My personal susoicion is that many of these "death punches" are the result of someone cleverly taking advantage of mechanisms like this...

    Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
     
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  7. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    No. No it's not. There is zero science to support acupuncture providing anything other than a placebo effect.
     
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  8. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

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    You know what they call the guy that finished dead last in his medical school?

    Doctor.

    As a guy that's been beat up his whole life, been hit by a car as a kid, and still continues to fight father time till the very f'n end despite some pain in the **** medical issues, I have, and will, take any and all kinds of treatment that I can.

    I don't care what's psychosomatic and what's not, I just want to get back to training, back to work and back to fun time off - and erase whatever it is that's messing with me.

    Of course my self diagnosed belief in a hot bath, a hot toddy and a fattie isn't for everyone. But then, what is?

    accupuncture.jpg
     
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  9. Gweilo

    Gweilo 2nd Black Belt

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    Imo, I dont beleive there are points like the movie kiss of the dragon, but there are anatomical weak points on the body, whether they be muscle, skeletal or nerve, the meridians are convienient reference map points for muscle and nerve attacks, some people are more resistant to certain points, some points are well known, or not so well known, and work on anyone, like 2 points in a video in another thread labelled gall bladder 18 and 19,or m hn 5 on the frontal lobe, and the temples on the temporal lobe region, others are muscular like sternocleiomastoid muscle or the mastoid process, but I dont think it matters what time of day you hit these areas they work.
     
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  10. wab25

    wab25 Black Belt

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    I am first to admit, that I am not a doctor and I do not know anything about acupuncture. However, I have read a few things like the following:

    Acupuncture: Why Does It Work?

    This article, and others like it, say that there is something to acupuncture. They have been able to scientifically measure results in specific usages. Specifically this article mentions that it helps with pain management and with nausea that occurs from cancer treatment.

    Personally, I believe as the article suggests, that acupuncture has use, beyond the placebo effect, in many cases... and that it should be used as one part of the solution, together with more traditional western medicine.

    Am I missing something?
     
  11. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    And chiropractic treatment. Which still suprises me.
     
  12. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Sorry yes they are real and we call them liver shots.
     
  13. WaterGal

    WaterGal Master of Arts

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    My guess is it was less "cleverly taking advantage" and more random chance. Like, some guy punched another guy really hard in the chest, the punch-ee died soon-after, and the punch-er went "oh yeah I totally meant to do that, it was my secret death punch".
     
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  14. Bill Mattocks

    Bill Mattocks Sr. Grandmaster

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    I don't know what I don't know.

    I suspect that such things do not exist.

    I can imagine how a person could suffer internal injuries from a fight that do not manifest immediately, or which aggravate existing conditions resulting in delayed injury or death.

    Such things, having been observed, beg an explanation. Explanations arise to fit observations. It doesn't mean they are correct or incorrect. Just that they appear to explain what happened.

    Example: a man with an undiagnosed heart condition gets in a fight. He goes home apparently unharmed. Has heart attack and dies that night, perhaps exacerbated by the stress of the fight. In times when autopsies were unknown, what killed him? A delayed death touch perhaps. A dim mak.

    The opponent, hearing of this, grimly proclaiming he meant to do it. His reputation is assured. Who would want to fight such a man?

    Let something similar happen more than once in a culture with a strong oral historic tradition, and it becomes fact.

    I'm not claiming to be correct. This is only my suspicion.
     
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  15. isshinryuronin

    isshinryuronin Blue Belt

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    Acupuncture has been around for over 1000 years, and pressure point striking for at least 700. Would they have this longevity if there was no value to them? They have been passed on by learned men: Imperial physicians and warrior priests who studied, and experimented on, human subjects (dead and alive).

    So, my gut tells me there is something to it. The 2 hour cycles may be a little far-fetched, but is it possible some organs or areas are more vulnerable in the morning or night diurnal cycles? Doesn't one's blood pressure, digestion and other functions vary during the 24 hour day?

    I remain open-minded on this subject.
     
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  16. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    Sure. Just because something is nonsense doesn't mean people won't believe it.
     
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  17. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    How long has astrology been around?
     
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  18. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I'd love to see those - I've been meaning to look into the research and haven't gotten around to it.
     
  19. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    It could also be that it's just confirmation bias in action. If a few times over history someone dies of a heart attack after being struck at about the time they were going to have that heart attack anyway, those few times seem compelling. Or it could be that the heart is just more vulnerable at that time.
     
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  20. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    The studies I've seen were all measures of acute pain management, and suggested it only accelerated relief. I've yet to see studies related to gait and long-term leg problems from it, for instance. Those would be expensive to conduct, as they'd need many years.123
     
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