McDojo -- how do you define it?

[Metal]

Any dojang that reminds me of "The Foot Fist Way" is a McDojo. ;-)

Instructor's that have numerous high dan gradings in several asrts and create their own 'system' are also an indicator to me.

 

[Xue Sheng]

If the guy teaching the class looks like this

It's a McDojo

If the Senior students look like this

It's a McDojo

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I never liked the term McDojo. It is rather judgmental and crass. However, I empathize with people who are frustrated at what seems to be the dumbing down of the art.

What elements make a school a McDojo? Has anyone actually attended one?

A McDojo is, as the name implies, a business model. It is the result of entrepreneurs figuring out what element of a martial arts school are profitable and what elements could be added to facilitated greater attendance, retention (of income), and profits.

Greater attendence:
After school programs provide an alternative to 'daycare' that not only enables kids to attend, but also enriches the school, as it is another service provided by the school. A focus on children and tween classes also increases attendance. It also increases profits, as parents are more inclined to pay the various extra fees, such as belt tests. Family classes are another method of increasing attendence; get mom/dad and kids together.

Greater retention:
Retention is always an issue, but it is retention of income that is key here. Service contracts insure that income will be retained for a one or a two year period, sometimes longer. Keep in mind, the student may have packed up and left, but the automatic bank draft will continue unless he closes the account, at which point the billing service goes after him.

Profits:
Every business seeks to increase sales and profits. It is good business sense. The additional belts, each with its own test and testing fee, increase profits. A pro shop can increase profits, depending on the art, and requiring students to buy either federation branded gear (which is likely unavailable anywhere else close) or to simply buy all of their equipment from you, and by requiring equipment (implementation of weapons programs into a traditionally weaponless art like taekwondo, foor example), pro shop profits can be greatly enhanced. Those afterschool programs that I mentioned earlier also provide greater profit.

A demonstration team is another profit builder, as it often requires participants to pay to be on the team, purchase special equipment and uniforms, and it produces and advertisement that pays you, instead of the usual paying out for advertising.

Then there are various extra cost programs, such as black belt clubs, leadership clubs, masters clubs, etc.

You'll notice that pretty much every McDojo incorporates most or all of these elements; it's what makes it a McDojo. Look at McDonalds, which is where the term comes from: all of the elements that make the franchise profitable have been figured out and implemented. Everything is done by formula. For a school owner with little business experience, this is certainly a boon.

You'll also notice that I left out any mention of the quality of instruction. I'm not going to get into how good or bad the instruction is; I have seen McDojos with fine instructors and well trained students. I have seen McDojos with under-qualified/over-ranked instructors with under-trained/over-promoted students. I have even seen one shift from the former to the latter.

About the only element that directly impacts the instruction is the proliferation of and importance of belts coupled with service contracts. Because of the high degree of profit that belt tests bring in, and because it is difficult to get people to purchase a contract for more than a year or two, belt testing is done on a schedule and teaching is geared towards the test rather than simply teaching. Though not automatic, this dynamic tends to adversely affect the structure of the curriculum (usually overinflating it) and the ability of students to retain and/or develop any depth to what they have learned.

Now, if this dynamic stoped after ildan/chodan/shodan/first dan/first degree/black-belt/whatever term is used at a particular school, and students were then focused on perfecting and developing depth in the barage of material that they have spent the last 12-14 months learning and if the black belt were not inflated to mean 'expert' in the mind of the student (and his/her parents if the student is a child), then it wouldn't be a problem.

Keep in mind that there is nothing preventing a McDojo from doing this, but since the focus is on keeping people coming back for more, new material must be introduced. Thus weapons programs (usually fluff) are added if the art does not already have one.

Certain arts are more susceptible to this than others. Karate and taekwondo seem to be the hit the hardest, mainly because of their appeal and because the belt structure and use of different kata/tul/hyeong/pumsae is already in place. I would argue that arts with solo forms are inherently more adaptable to this model precisely because they provide a new 'form' with every new belt, and it is very easy to get people to memorize and perform solo forms without having to go into any real depth in the form along the way. KKW taekwondo is more susceptible to this than karate and perhaps other TKD styles because bunkai is not generally a part of pumsae instruction (applications are taught through other avenues).

Because KKW taekwondo usually come with WTF sparring, a well developed tournament circuit that goes all the way to the Olympics, specialized equimpment that can be sold in a school's pro shop, and the opportunity for a school to earn lots of trophies (they look great in the window), it is even more appealing to the entrepreneur looking to cash in on a martial arts school.

I'd say that the ATA is susceptible to it, but that would be incorrect; the ATA has embraced it, and may even be the Henry Ford of McDojos. Note: I am not discounting (nor upholding) the quality of instruction. I have never trained in an ATA school, so I have no basis to criticize the general level of instruction within that federation.

So what it really comes back down to is the individual school owner. About the only thing that really turns me off in all that I mentioned is the use of billing companies/contracts. The rest of it is forgivable if the instruction is good.

The business model itself is fairly successful. Done with care and thought, it can be the best of both worlds. Done as a purely financial venture.... well, I suspect we've all seen where that can lead.

 

[Xue Sheng]

If this is the Grandmaster, Founder, Sōke, Grand Poobah and/or Grand Imperial Poobah of your MA system

It's a McDojo


OK. I'm finished...I'll go no :EG:

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

OUCH.
Sad that Pelligrini is now certifying TKD BB.

When I spoke with him, I asked him a lot of questions regarding hapkido, but we never discussed taekwondo. Presumably either he, or someone on his staff, is a KKW sadan.

I know he offers access to the KKW. I would be curious as to how he handles promotions within his own ITA.

http://www.dsihq.com/tae-kwon-do.html

I am even more curious as to why he bothers at all and simply rank people as he does in CHKD.

 

[James Kovacich]

When I spoke with him, I asked him a lot of questions regarding hapkido, but we never discussed taekwondo. Presumably either he, or someone on his staff, is a KKW sadan.

I know he offers access to the KKW. I would be curious as to how he handles promotions within his own ITA.

http://www.dsihq.com/tae-kwon-do.html

I am even more curious as to why he bothers at all and simply rank people as he does in CHKD.

I'm not familiar with his KKW connection but I am familiar with this.

in 1999, the ICHF was recognized by the Korea Kido Association and the World Kido Federation, collectively known as the Kido Hae, as the Hapkido style Chon Tu Kwan Hapkido.[SUP][2][/SUP] The World Kido Federation is recognized by the Government of South Korea as an organization that serves as a link between the official Martial Arts governing body of Korea and the rest of the world Martial Arts community.
[SUP]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_Hapkido[/SUP]

 

[James Kovacich]

Over 20 years ago I once trained in one for 6 months but on purpose (not sure if McDojo was a term yet). I was a student of my brother-in-law in Japanese based system and I wanted to spend more time on my kicks. I was walking through a mall (not a strip mall, a real mall) and one of the instructors was at the door trying to get people to come inside. Basically, i wanted to work more heavily on my kicks and I trained there 2 days a week on my off days from my brother-in-laws classes.

It wasn't a bad experience, I got exactly what I sought. With that said, TKD, while it may have spawned the term McDojo, it unfairly gets to heavily connected to the word. There is good TKD out there. Examples of SF Bay Area schools who were good are Choi's TKD, Byong Yu's TKD (Formerly Bay Area) Sam Montogomery's TKD, and Ernie Reyes TKD.

Choi's taught Ernie Reyes who could be considered a McDojo owner. I remember my brother-inlaw showing me Ernies monthly earnings which was grossing more than 25 thousand a month (around 1990-91). They used the same collection agency, EFC, which published the top earners for EFC schools to see. I know that Ernie added in "some" Inayan Eskrima and BJJ into his curriculum.

All I'm saying is TKD may be associated but in the same breath there is good TKD, traditional and eclectic.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

All American tae kwon do association (ATA) schools and united studios of self defense! Many others like Dillman and Pelligrini run and certify bullshido type schools.

Complete disagreement here, mainly with the word 'all'. Any style or substyle/chain can have mcdojos, but they can also have good teachers who teach legitimate MA effectively. I guarantee you that there is at least one good MAist from each (starting out there)..they must have learned something good there if they became good MAists due to the schools, which means they most likely had good teachers at those schools, which IMO means they were not Mcdojos.

 

[Markku P]

Choi's taught Ernie Reyes who could be considered a McDojo owner. I remember my brother-inlaw showing me Ernies monthly earnings which was grossing more than 25 thousand a month (around 1990-91). They used the same collection agency, EFC, which published the top earners for EFC schools to see. I know that Ernie added in "some" Inayan Eskrima and BJJ into his curriculum.

All I'm saying is TKD may be associated but in the same breath there is good TKD, traditional and eclectic.

I wouldn't consider Ernie Reyes Sr and his schools as "Mcdojo" at all. OK, He is making lot of money but what I have seen about his students, their technical level is really good. And Ernie Reyes Sr. He is just amazing

 

[msmitht]

Complete disagreement here, mainly with the word 'all'. Any style or substyle/chain can have mcdojos, but they can also have good teachers who teach legitimate MA effectively. I guarantee you that there is at least one good MAist from each (starting out there)..they must have learned something good there if they became good MAists due to the schools, which means they most likely had good teachers at those schools, which IMO means they were not Mcdojos.

A good teacher of a flawed, crap system is still running a mcdojo. Doesn't matter how good he/she is if the system itself sucks.

 

[James Kovacich]

I wouldn't consider Ernie Reyes Sr and his schools as "Mcdojo" at all. OK, He is making lot of money but what I have seen about his students, their technical level is really good. And Ernie Reyes Sr. He is just amazing

I agree. That was poor wording on my part because Ernie Reyes schools are not McDojo's but someone that does not know better may think they are. That is more what I meant. I was just only using the parameters what is perceived by most, cardio kickboxing, lots of students, lots of money, lots of schools (10 I believe before he let his students take most over and become owners). He proves my original point very well!

Also, Ernies schools test a lot. Ernie himself not long ago tested for his 8th degree, probably not because he needed but so he could continue promoting his longtime students. Thats my take anyway.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

A good teacher of a flawed, crap system is still running a mcdojo. Doesn't matter how good he/she is if the system itself sucks.

By all accounts, the ATA taekwondo system is itself servicable. From what I have read on their websites and from feedback from ATA members, the organization is definitely very focused on the financial success of its schools and tends to be rather pricey. So in their case, I would say that it actually does matter how good he/she is.

I've never heard of United Studios of Self Defense, so I make no comment.

 

[Instructor]

Therein lies the crux of the term. If the school is doing a great job of teaching people martial arts then in my humble opinion it's not a McDojo.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Therein lies the crux of the term. If the school is doing a great job of teaching people martial arts then in my humble opinion it's not a McDojo.

I try to distinguish between a McDojo and a flat out crappy school.

If I go to a school with black belt clubs, a banner that says, "We are a blackbelt school," masters club, more than eight belts, service contracts, and an afterschool program, I consider it a McDojo based on its structure and business practices. I make no judgement of the instruction until I watch a regular class and an advanced (shodan/ildan or equivalent) class.

 

[Instructor]

Also every martial arts school has to have SOME sort of business model. Even the guy that teaches free at the YMCA still has essential expenses and has to meet them.

My issue primarily is when they aren't teaching martial arts anymore. Just glorified daycare.

 

[Earl Weiss]

When I spoke with him, I asked him a lot of questions regarding hapkido, but we never discussed taekwondo. Presumably either he, or someone on his staff, is a KKW sadan.

.

Having a KKW connection and certifying BB rank for people doing a non KKW curriculum, in this case the Chang Hun system is OK with the KKW?

 

[Gnarlie]

A McDojo is where you get 2 All-Beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickled onions, on a sesame seed bun, and a free black belt on the back of your Happy Meal box to cut out and colour in. The free toy of the week is a light-up set of nunchaku, and the whole thing with no added colours*, flavourings, or actual martial content.

*actual belt colours and flavourings may vary. Limited edition camouflage velcro fastening belts available for a short time only while stocks last, with a joint 12 month subscription to Splits Club and Teenstructors.

Just like our namesake Maccy Ds, our figurehead is a clown too...

 

[Dirty Dog]

Having a KKW connection and certifying BB rank for people doing a non KKW curriculum, in this case the Chang Hun system is OK with the KKW?

Yes, it is. This is not news. There have been KKW people here posting invitations to get this sort of assimilation rank.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Having a KKW connection and certifying BB rank for people doing a non KKW curriculum, in this case the Chang Hun system is OK with the KKW?

If I remember correctly from the many discussions with Puunui last summer, I believe the answer is yes with regards to ITF/Chang hon practitioners. I will refer you back to any number of threads where Puunui elaborated on this subject.

As far as GM Pellegrini, either he or someone on his staff is ranked highly enough to sign off on dan certificates. Or, as someone else suggested, he has some connection through the Kido Hae.

Do you (or anyone else) know if he holds any dan grade in taekwondo?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

A good teacher of a flawed, crap system is still running a mcdojo. Doesn't matter how good he/she is if the system itself sucks.

If a teacher is good and elps create great martial artists using a certain system, then clearly the system itself is not at fault, but instead some of the other teachers who fail to make the system work.