How do you define a "mcdojo"?

[grydth]

A funny term used around here.... but do we mean the same thing when we use it? What aspects/defects of a dojo would, in your view, earn it the unflattering description "mcdojo"? Can any good come from them - especially in a community with limited MA instruction available?

Not looking for specific dojo names! I believe that would be a violation here. What I am looking for are experiences and opinions.

 

[Andrew Green]

The people that train there seem to enjoy what they are doing, so I guess that is a good thing that comes from them.

The problem is always in honesty. If they are honest about what they do, cater to what most people want, but by doing so water down what has been done traditionally and dress it up in a very commercialized way, then that is fine. There little dragons after school daycare program will let them retire rich, the kids will hopefully enjoy it more then a regular daycare. And everyone is happy.

But when they push the "We're deadly fighters, to deadly to spar!" lines, that's where it should fall under false advertising. Kinda like McDonalds advertising a double quarter pounder with cheese as "The healthiest meal you'll ever eat, does wonders for unclogging your arteries and one a day is a sure way to protect against heart attacks!"

That said, I got nothing against Big Macs. If thats what you want to eat, go for it. Don't complain if too many make you fat though, you knew what you where eating when you ordered it.

McDojo's are the same, if you enjoy them, by all means go. But don't complain when after 3 years you've lost fighting skills rather then gained them because you've been practicing silly techniques, no contact sparring and other nonsense.

The problem is in the claims, McDonalds isn't going to claim a Double Quarter pounder is healthy and will keep you're arteries clear, a lot of McDojo's will.

 

[bluemtn]

People's opinions of this varries, but I think that the general ideas are: popping out black belts in a very short length of time and little skill to show for it, outrageous fees for things such as testing, extra "clubs" to join and to just add on to the tuition- especially with "Required..." attatched to them. Those are what I've ran into, and haven't seen last very long in my area.

 

[bluemtn]

The people that train there seem to enjoy what they are doing, so I guess that is a good thing that comes from them.

That said, I got nothing against Big Macs. If thats what you want to eat, go for it. Don't complain if too many make you fat though, you knew what you where eating when you ordered it.

McDojo's are the same, if you enjoy them, by all means go. But don't complain when after 3 years you've lost fighting skills rather then gained them because you've been practicing silly techniques, no contact sparring and other nonsense.

The problem is in the claims, McDonalds isn't going to claim a Double Quarter pounder is healthy and will keep you're arteries clear, a lot of McDojo's will.

I'm with you there. It's also what you're after in an art or place.

 

[dragonswordkata]

Typicaly the mcdojo's I have seen teach like Andrew stated, I would also add they try to appear flashy in their apperance and yet tradtional at the same time. Also the instructors talks alot and listens very little. Kinda like substituting glitz and showmanship for real depth and wisdom in their arts.

There are lots of good threads on finding a good school/instructor, thank goodness.

 

[Rook]

Andrew Green and Dragon sword kata hit the nail on the head.

 

[evenflow1121]

I like this post, a long time ago, I would have said, if you get a black belt in a year, or if you have color cordinated ki's or gi's with your respective belt, or if you throw birthday parties, ect. Today however, I think the best way to define it or the way I define it, is through honesty. If the instructor is honest, and up front about what he teaches, whether its street self defense, competition, or a combination of both, I would not call it a mc dojo, it may just not be what I am looking for, but that does not mean it is necessarily a mc dojo. However, if I walk into a studio with some self proclaimed grandmaster or soke, who gives me this bs about studying with some unknown master, from some temple, in some place without any credentials or evidence to back it up, then I define that as a Mc Dojo, it all comes down to honesty.

 

[JBrainard]

I think that all of the requirements for a Mcdojo have been covered except the horror stories you hear about dojos that promise you a black belt after a certain amount of time/money.

 

[MBuzzy]

Personally, there are two things that define it for me. Number one, if the owner cares more about money than the training. That is fairly easy to spot, as others have said, required extras, expensive clubs, etc.

The second is credentials. If the school is not affiliated with a larger organization or at least shows some solid proof of their ability and authority to instruct, I wouldn't go there.

 

[Drac]

A place whose sign says it offers EXPERT instruction in Karate, Judo and Kung-Fu and the instructor is almost 21 yoa

 

[matt.m]

well I would consider 100.00 tuition for a minimum 3yr. contract with a guaranteed dan before the end of the 3yrs. a McDojo. Gee, you could have 2nd dan if you pre pay at initial signing.

I could go on and on, however my opening paragraph says it all.

 

[thetruth]

One that waters down their respective art inorder to attract more students regardless of whether they are teaching ****. That is basically it. They often charge a little more but that isn't necessarily true.


Cheers
Sam:asian:

 

[Monadnock]

I think the "Mc-" prefix says it all. You are getting something of lesser quality for a fee. Trademarks also include (but are not limited to McDojos) contract$, easily identifiable ranking $chedules, extra "club$" to join, private se$$ions, te$t fee$...

As someone said, they have their benefits if you're just looking to get your pulse rate up, or drop the kids off after school.

The same setup could be done by an honest person and that's fine. Generally the McDojo is run by an ex- used car salesman type who jut wants your money. I wouldn't put that sort of label on a school just because it is in the middle of a shopping plaza, but usually that is a dead giveaway.

 

[grydth]

Fair answers, but kindly allow me a follow up inquiry:

What is your opinion when a dojo mixes characteristics?

This is an era of few absolutes. Few 'black and whites', many shades. Suppose you have well credentialed instructors in a respected traditional style - but also clubs, flashy teams? What if there are no test fees, but extra clubs to join? What if all the flashy stuff is strictly optional?

What I am looking to see is whether certain (or any) mcdojo characteristics are death, are so polluting as to condemn the place if they are there
....... or if you look at the whole picture before deciding.

I have no axe to grind on this one. I never have operated a school, and do not do so now... or plan to. Just curious as to opinions.

 

[tshadowchaser]

My definetion of Mcdojo
well today it would be
"that place that was over in the next town that stayed open 2 years and promoted a dozen people to balck belt, 3 to 3rd degree, and at least 1 to fifth in that short amount of time. Now I know the instructor claimed some had been with him a couple of years befor he opened but still all those higher ranks in what 4 years"
yep that about sums it up today

 

[SFC JeffJ]

My definitos is pretty close to MBuzzy's. Anyplace that puts money over quality instruction. And I got to go with Drac as well. Nearby, a place just opened up about a year ago that will give you a "real black belt, like in Japan" in Karate, Aikido, Tai Chi, and Ninjutsu. I couldn't help but notice in his flyer, with all the quotes from well known and respected Martial Artists, his name was nowhere to be found.

Jeff

 

[Andrew Green]

This is an era of few absolutes. Few 'black and whites', many shades. Suppose you have well credentialed instructors in a respected traditional style - but also clubs, flashy teams? What if there are no test fees, but extra clubs to join? What if all the flashy stuff is strictly optional?

Again, it is all about honesty. Flashy is not bad, unless that is not what you are after. If you are looking for a flashy style, well then you need a school that teaches it.

High fees are also not bad. After all, it is a business, even though some don't like to admit it. And businesses need to make money, they need to pay the rent, and the instructor needs a salary. As long as you know what you are paying for and how much you are paying when you sign up, then its up to you, same as any other purchase.

Of course if you are signing a long term contract or you get stuffed with all sorts of little extras that they don't tell you about until you are already locked in, that is a problem.

The name, "McDojo" I think is a poor one. McDonalds is known for serving, reasonable quality food, VERY consistantly at very low prices in very high quantities. Yet the first thing out of peoples mouths when you ask what a McDojo is is often "High fees"

It's a business, they sell a product, and if you wouldn't work 50-60 hours a week, evenings and weekends mainly, to barely scrape by, don't expect the owner of this business to do so. They are there to make a living, same reason you go to work everyday, and they will expect to be paid for what they do. So they will set there fees accordingly, and as long as they aren't deceptive about what or how you will get charged they haven't done anything wrong.

 

[grydth]

My definitos is pretty close to MBuzzy's. Anyplace that puts money over quality instruction. And I got to go with Drac as well. Nearby, a place just opened up about a year ago that will give you a "real black belt, like in Japan" in Karate, Aikido, Tai Chi, and Ninjutsu. I couldn't help but notice in his flyer, with all the quotes from well known and respected Martial Artists, his name was nowhere to be found.

Jeff

We have such an establishment about an hour's drive from here...... after seeing these, I now resent my original teacher for never giving me a black belt in the Japanese art of Tai Chi...

 

[Grenadier]

High fees are also not bad. After all, it is a business, even though some don't like to admit it. And businesses need to make money, they need to pay the rent, and the instructor needs a salary. As long as you know what you are paying for and how much you are paying when you sign up, then its up to you, same as any other purchase.

Exactly. If a school owner wants to charge what the market allows him to charge, then that's simply following smart business procedures. There's nothing wrong with making money if you're doing what you say you are doing.

Business rent / mortgage payments cost money, as do insurance, supplies, labor costs (most instructors do get paid), and while I (and many folks on this forum) would love to be able to teach for free, I'm not in the position to do that, since I have expenses of my own (I don't own the school here; just giving an example of my opinion).

The material that they teach is their decision, and as long as they are honest about what they teach, then it's not my place to tell them how to run their places, since I'm not affiliated with them. If someone teaches, say, olympic-style Tae Kwon Do competition sparring all of the time, and tells people honestly that this is what they do, and if the students want that, then there's nothing to really complain about here.


On the other hand, where I would certainly frown at a school owner, is if he claimed that he were teaching the world's deadliest martial arts, or how to turn your kids into tip-top fighting machines, but teaching them garbage. Such attitudes and practices can get your students killed, and I will discourage people from going to such places, no matter how cheap the costs may be.

 

[dragonswordkata]

Fair answers, but kindly allow me a follow up inquiry:
....
What I am looking to see is whether certain (or any) mcdojo characteristics are death, are so polluting as to condemn the place if they are there
....... or if you look at the whole picture before deciding....quote]

A good question, one characteristic that is over riding..hmmm. For me it has always been that pesky "feeling" and then I look to see if it was just a bad first impression. Trust your gut, but look around to confirm.