C
chris...
Guest
self-defence in a TKD class, bit like learning how to use a swaord in a judo classFearlessFreep said:
Mc dojo
- Thread starter hammer
- Start date
or this.....chris... said:
evenflow1121
2nd Black Belt
A school that gives away rank
Where you are guaranteed a bb in a matter of time, no matter how terrible or how good a practitioner you must be, you will be a bb in 2 yrs because you will pay me $X amount every month at a belt promotion test where you have absolutely 99.9% chance of passing, because I am interested in your money, I mean you are just that good. Absolutely no sparring is allowed or any type of contact. A school that charges you for every last little thing and color coordinates uniforms with belts. If your school refers to nunchaku as numchucks. If the lower belts know the absolute same as the higher graded belts say what separates their knowledge is a form or something, but the techniques are the same at all levels.
Where you are guaranteed a bb in a matter of time, no matter how terrible or how good a practitioner you must be, you will be a bb in 2 yrs because you will pay me $X amount every month at a belt promotion test where you have absolutely 99.9% chance of passing, because I am interested in your money, I mean you are just that good. Absolutely no sparring is allowed or any type of contact. A school that charges you for every last little thing and color coordinates uniforms with belts. If your school refers to nunchaku as numchucks. If the lower belts know the absolute same as the higher graded belts say what separates their knowledge is a form or something, but the techniques are the same at all levels.
C
chris...
Guest
or this??? this what?
i'm having a go at tkd that also teach different kinds of self defence while still claiming to be just tkd as opposed to tkd that just teach tkd, to me thats wrong, they should call there class tkd with self-sefence.
i'm having a go at tkd that also teach different kinds of self defence while still claiming to be just tkd as opposed to tkd that just teach tkd, to me thats wrong, they should call there class tkd with self-sefence.
I really don't tend to think of the term in relation to commercialization, though perhaps I should. To me the "McDojo" has sacrificed standards of skill (whether that's for competition, or fighting, or whatever). The school where a ranking has no real relation to the skill of the person holding it, is the one I generally think of as a "McDojo".
Well... many people argue that a belt isn't about skill, but about what material you have been exposed too. So, why not? Just take it for what it is worth.evenflow1121 said:
Schools do this. The really smart and the not so smart students will usually graduate at the same time.
Different people train for different reasons. I think that is a given. There is a difference between someone that wants to get in shape, socialize and maybe pick up some basic self-defence and someone that wants to fight competitively. Or someone that is interested in the history / theory / pressure points / etc, the more exotic "in your head" stuff.hammer said:
But we are all customers, clients, and students.
"McDojo's" as they are called, can do great work. They might not turn out good fighters, but if they give kids focus, improve their attention span helping them get better grades, improve there self-discipline, get them more active, etc. I'd still say that is a good thing, especially if they enjoy doing it.
I do think that people will tend to gravitate towards training environments that focus on the things they are interested in, whether it is fighting, exotic PP KO's, meditation, fitness, confidence development or whatever. For many people the "McDojo" is the right place for them to train, thats what they want to spend there money doing.
Here are my thoughts....
McDojo is a dojo that has fallen victim to greed where they have sacrificed the dignity and respect of their art for money. Much the same way corporations sacrifice the dignity and respect of their employees and their word for money... Much the same way a prostitute sacrifices her dignity and respect for money.
There are many respectable ways to make money. I understand what these instructors who have posted are saying (we have to make money). Yes, I agree, so do I. But if it is going to demean and diminish the very art you are trying to teach by commercializing it, then maybe it was not meant to be that way. True seekers will find you. Maybe you will not be able to do that full time as a job. Maybe have to work a full-time job like other people and teach in the spare time.
Those are some of my thoughts.
Best regards,
David
McDojo is a dojo that has fallen victim to greed where they have sacrificed the dignity and respect of their art for money. Much the same way corporations sacrifice the dignity and respect of their employees and their word for money... Much the same way a prostitute sacrifices her dignity and respect for money.
There are many respectable ways to make money. I understand what these instructors who have posted are saying (we have to make money). Yes, I agree, so do I. But if it is going to demean and diminish the very art you are trying to teach by commercializing it, then maybe it was not meant to be that way. True seekers will find you. Maybe you will not be able to do that full time as a job. Maybe have to work a full-time job like other people and teach in the spare time.
Those are some of my thoughts.
Best regards,
David
Subjective, many people WANT the commercial style environment over the small club, that is why they are so big.Bigshadow said:
So if people want this sort of training, and it is good for them, and they know what they are getting, what exactly is the problem?
K
Kempogeek
Guest
I believe this school in California could be called a "McDojo". I've seen on their website a section where they list their black Belt graduates from previous years. Every October they have a "Black Belt Spectacular" exam for the candidates at a hotel ballroom. Anyway I've seen alot of kids that under 16 y/o and some even under 10 y/o receive their black belts, a few 2nd degree. Another head scratcher, there's one candidate who is going for her 2nd degree black belt a year after getting her black belt. Yet there's another candidate who is going for the same rank 3 years after making BB. Sounds like a McDojo to me. Just my 2 cents.......Stevedscott said:
Sounds like Graduation... Bet the participants and parents love it.Kempogeek said:
D
dscott
Guest
I know you said you didn't want this to turn into reporting a McDojo but this is precisely what I was talking about:
http://www.karateamerica.com./files/Pages/Black Belts/Black Belts.htm#
http://www.karateamerica.com./files/Pages/Black Belts/Black Belts.htm#
hammer said:
1- A belt factory
2- A place where they care more about the money over the development of the students.
3- A place where you have a 8 yo 3rd degree BB.
4- A place that is more concerned with the 'flashy stuff' rather than teaching some quality Martial Arts.
5- A place that will rank you without you having to be there to test.
I'm sure there are more, but the above is what comes to mind right now.
Mike
What about quality flashy stuff?MJS said:
Andrew Green said:
What exactly did you have in mind? I guess it would all depend on what the student was looking for.
Mike
Actually, it isn't exactly a problem when they know what they are getting.Andrew Green said:
Ironically, many don't realize what they are getting. What they think they are getting and what they are getting are many times entirely different. I know from my own personal experience as a parent of a child who attended what I call a McDojo. I was unaware of how things worked until we were approaching the "camo belt". Anyway, it was not what I thought it was in the beginning. However, the instructor was very good and I could tell his heart was in the teaching, but he was not the owner. I saw many parents there and later they too went the way I did. What they got was not what they expected.
Unfortunately, I think the instructor took the student turn-over as a personal thing. I feel bad for him.
There are many other problems I saw there, but I am not going to publicly discuss them.
Fortunately, I am at a point in my training, that *I* can teach my child.
- Thread Starter
- #38
Dscott , thankyou for sharing with us , and perhaps you are 100% right?dscott said:
Yet This thread is not intended to identify "Mc Dojo's' simply to define the term from your prospective and the associated characteristics of the great "Mc Dojo" and sure a picture speaks a thousand word's, although in the interest of keeping this thread non political and constructive as per topic.
Could you kindly edit your post a remove the link. And true I can understand the temptation to post such a link.( lol)
All good cheers
Brother John
Senior Master
Earlier I said that I think "Lowered standards" was the most common denominator for the Mc Dojo. Still think so.
BUT: Also I think they not only lower their standards in the interest of business and glamour, but I think that many of them have misplaced values:
Valuing rank over knowledge/ability/insight.
Valuing titles over earned respect.
Valuing the fancy over the foundational.
Valuing reputation over integrity.
Unfortunately, I've seen many of these things first-hand...and it turns my stomach.
Just me thinkin....
Your Brother
John
BUT: Also I think they not only lower their standards in the interest of business and glamour, but I think that many of them have misplaced values:
Valuing rank over knowledge/ability/insight.
Valuing titles over earned respect.
Valuing the fancy over the foundational.
Valuing reputation over integrity.
Unfortunately, I've seen many of these things first-hand...and it turns my stomach.
I have Nothing against people doing things their own way for their own reasons. I think it's what I like about learning about different martial arts the most: but these shifted values....I don't think there's a good argument for them.
Just me thinkin....
Your Brother
John
kroh
Brown Belt
Hey All,
I think Andrew makes some valid points and so do a lot of the other people who have voiced their opinions. Many have said that "McDojoism" scarifices combative ability for mass market skill. Andrew has stated in numerous ( and might I say the most convincing Mcdojo arguments ) posts that these business owners are merely giving their clients what they want. I think this is the crux of the problem where Mcdojoism comes into play.
There are a lot of threads on this and other forums about swords. Paul Chen, a manufacturer who's China 'Hanwei' Forge has produced some Japanese style low cost cutting blades that get the job done but without all the extra hooplah of the high priced blades. Are they as good as the high end blades...no. Also, there are companies out there that produce stainless steel versions of these same swords...will they cut a human...yes, will they probably shatter on impact with anything harder than a foam pool noodle...yes, are they as good as the real thing ( for many reasons which would take up an entire thread )...no.
The PoInT: These commercial schools that teach only tournament play and gymnastic routines should let all involved know that they are not teaching martial arts. While these programs might teach all the things that Andrew spoke of (integrity, focus, and discipline), it is like the stainless steel katana sword. It looks like the real thing and might feel like the real thing but when it comes time to being tested...it is NOT the real thing. This is only an opinion mind you, but it seems to be a tested one. If you take some one who has trained for five years for an hour a day, three days a week at one of these "family" run school businesses and say they had to fight a person who trained every day for four or more hours a day in Muay Thai Boran or Western Boxing... the "family" fighter would more than likely loose unless he brought something in gun metal blue or with the words "cold steel" on the side.
I think many of these supposed Mcdojo schools have a lot of merit. Many of them keep kids out trouble and get mom or dad out of the house. Many of the tournament champions they produce put on a great show and never fail to entertain. Many are the clients of these places have gotten in great shape and have gone from couch potatoe to dedicated artist. But they cannot fight. They might sware up and down that their skills are valid and they can hold their own...but just because some one says something is true doesn't mean that it is.
I very well could be wrong. I could be a party to one of these schools. All my training up to this point could be crap and I might be just one of those looney nutjobs trying to get his opinion out there. The fact of the matter is, i don't train to be a gymnast or point fighter, and I don't really care about most other people's opinion of my training. I train because I enjoy it and that is really what it comes down to.
Mcdojoism is a point of view. If one truely wants to say that he is training in a real fighting system, you must join the military or police force or train with some one who has. But martial arts is more than just kicking butt with the latest gear/weapons and that is where some of these schools come in.
Am I defending Mcdojos? No... Will I train some where where they are not learning to forcefully control another human being ( controll being by impact, bending or at gun point), no. I will support anyone who decides to train anywhere as long as they are getting off the couch. In time...they will find what they are really looking for and stay a while. Anything else ( including this long A$$ rant) is just an opinion.
Thanks for the minute,
Walt :asian:
I think Andrew makes some valid points and so do a lot of the other people who have voiced their opinions. Many have said that "McDojoism" scarifices combative ability for mass market skill. Andrew has stated in numerous ( and might I say the most convincing Mcdojo arguments ) posts that these business owners are merely giving their clients what they want. I think this is the crux of the problem where Mcdojoism comes into play.
There are a lot of threads on this and other forums about swords. Paul Chen, a manufacturer who's China 'Hanwei' Forge has produced some Japanese style low cost cutting blades that get the job done but without all the extra hooplah of the high priced blades. Are they as good as the high end blades...no. Also, there are companies out there that produce stainless steel versions of these same swords...will they cut a human...yes, will they probably shatter on impact with anything harder than a foam pool noodle...yes, are they as good as the real thing ( for many reasons which would take up an entire thread )...no.
The PoInT: These commercial schools that teach only tournament play and gymnastic routines should let all involved know that they are not teaching martial arts. While these programs might teach all the things that Andrew spoke of (integrity, focus, and discipline), it is like the stainless steel katana sword. It looks like the real thing and might feel like the real thing but when it comes time to being tested...it is NOT the real thing. This is only an opinion mind you, but it seems to be a tested one. If you take some one who has trained for five years for an hour a day, three days a week at one of these "family" run school businesses and say they had to fight a person who trained every day for four or more hours a day in Muay Thai Boran or Western Boxing... the "family" fighter would more than likely loose unless he brought something in gun metal blue or with the words "cold steel" on the side.
I think many of these supposed Mcdojo schools have a lot of merit. Many of them keep kids out trouble and get mom or dad out of the house. Many of the tournament champions they produce put on a great show and never fail to entertain. Many are the clients of these places have gotten in great shape and have gone from couch potatoe to dedicated artist. But they cannot fight. They might sware up and down that their skills are valid and they can hold their own...but just because some one says something is true doesn't mean that it is.
I very well could be wrong. I could be a party to one of these schools. All my training up to this point could be crap and I might be just one of those looney nutjobs trying to get his opinion out there. The fact of the matter is, i don't train to be a gymnast or point fighter, and I don't really care about most other people's opinion of my training. I train because I enjoy it and that is really what it comes down to.
Mcdojoism is a point of view. If one truely wants to say that he is training in a real fighting system, you must join the military or police force or train with some one who has. But martial arts is more than just kicking butt with the latest gear/weapons and that is where some of these schools come in.
Am I defending Mcdojos? No... Will I train some where where they are not learning to forcefully control another human being ( controll being by impact, bending or at gun point), no. I will support anyone who decides to train anywhere as long as they are getting off the couch. In time...they will find what they are really looking for and stay a while. Anything else ( including this long A$$ rant) is just an opinion.
Thanks for the minute,
Walt :asian:
