Master Al Case' Matrix Martial Arts

Discussion in 'General Self Defense' started by TaiChiTJ, Dec 18, 2010.

  1. Aiki Lee

    Aiki Lee Master of Arts

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    I watched the video of Al performing what he called 5 different sttles of martial arts on his home page and read a few of his articles. Frankly, it's all rather ridiculous and I'm surprised people have been as tactful as they have been when discussing it. His approach really is quite flawed.
     
  2. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

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    I've been away for the last few days. I don't know if Al Case has something or not -- but I'm skeptical. It's not that he claims to have categorized techniques; lots of people and systems have done that. It's that he claims to have done more than simply classify them, using words from mathematics and logic to support his claims -- but wouldn't give the barest explanation beyond jargon when we asked him. I'm skeptical -- but that doesn't mean it's useless or that nobody can claim usefulness.

    My comment here concerning ranks also seems to have been perhaps misread. Ranks aren't meaningless, by themselves. But they are only meaningful in context, both within the ranking organization or style, and within the individual. Rank is not automatically congruent with experience. I've known guys with decades of experience, who were "only" first or second dan because they simply hadn't tested or been evaluated. And I've seen people shoot up through ranks in various styles... sometimes because of lots of hard work and dedication, other times through natural talent and/or bringing previous experience to a new art, sometimes for other reasons.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2012
  3. Edward F

    Edward F White Belt

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    Hello everyone.




    Oaktree: although I was skeptical, because I saw the same as you, I found that the ideas spread by Al were interesting and thought provoking. I have not yet managed to find a teacher of Pa Kua near my area, nor studied it deeply, so I cannot talk about that art.


    I found a quote from Ueshiba himself (translated form Spanish):


    “Direct influence of Sokaku’s Dayto Ryu techniques in Aikido’s formation is not that great, it has just been an element among many”


    Again, I would be reluctant to state that Morihei didn’t put in Aikido some of what he had learnt about Judo. I have to study further the resources Mr Parker has kindly given me. Could you share the link of the breaking down of Aikido's techniques from Daito ryu? I would be very grateful.
    _____________________________


    Mr Parker: thanks for the material. It will be a valuable resource for my studies.


    Though, I have decided not to answer you anything from now on and for a reason. I had already written six pages detailing every tidbit as you had done, but then found no sense to it. You have already proved me that you don’t reckon my opinion as valid, trying to undermine it in a wide number of ways, so no matter what I say to you. I would have liked to address some points and start a productive debate, so it is a shame you took so much care in establishing you had all the reason from the very beginning, discouraging me of any attempt to talk to you. You can say you defeated me with your powerful evidences but in fact it was more something like “the power of narrow-mindedness”. In other words, I have come to think that you find none opinion valid other than yours and those which support it, based in the fact that anytime I express my opinion in anything you are prompt to start dismantling it, even if you are not right, even if it was summarized and simplied to avoid making larger an already large post, as was the case with the ranking system (a chance you took to suggest I am not familiar with something as basic as that). Pardon me, but it looks to me as if the only way for you to be right is to prove me wrong however and in whatever.


    Your bitter talk about the unbendable arm implying I was a fool believing it was such a feat teaching it in seconds when in fact I stated it was not a big thing, mentioning Tokimune Takeda, the arranging made by Kisshomaru, Omoto kyo influences… How you answered my question about training when in fact it was out of curiosity and aimed as well to conventional conditioning, if used… All looks to me as if oriented to making me appear as an ignorant, what you called me more overtly somewhere in your post, but I cannot think of any example more illustrative than the pyryte-fool's gold, a statement to which I have to reply that I expected a different behavior coming from a over-two-decade veteran other than such concealed blow. So I am more than inclined to think that you are convinced of my ignorance concerning Aikido, MA, or just plain everything, and you try to use that to indirectly invalidate my opinion. If you prefer that to a sane dialogue, your choice. I am not into demonstrating anything. My point from the very start has been: no one could objectively deny that someone might take some benefit from Mr Case’s courses, as jks9199 has also said, so let those interested decide for themselves, a point you have not been able to take down and I’d dare say you have deliberately avoided because addressing it in a direct manner would equal "everyone do as I say". I am just stating freedom of choice and freedom of opinion, while your point seems to have been all the time trying to prove that only one opinion is right: yours (and those in accordance), by questioning even my slightest remarks (even musical ones, when I know for a fact I am the vet there, and I could state it sharply based on what you said). Stating once and again that no good can be taken out of Mr Case’s courses, where does that leave me? Does that mean they could have something good? “No, it has to mean you are wrong -is what I infer from your answers and general comments-. It worked for you, but just because you are an ignorant white belt. It won’t work for any other”. You simply imply it rather than stating it plainly.


    Now I think Mr Case left the forum because he found it very difficult to explain everything. Moreover when the first answer to this thread was not precisely a humble, neutral and inviting one, in which appeared a statement I would like to comment: that of being an artist. In music, someone who plays what other’s wrote is an interpreter, while someone who has made his/her own what others wrote can began creating and is regarded as an artist. Have a look at Takemusu Aiki and maybe you’ll find the similarities. You seem to speak assuming everyone ought to think like you, and those not doing it are foolish. I have no problem with that. I prefer being foolish by my own self than well learned by other man’s eschewed thoughts. And I would like to quote your very first post finishing line: "Not a recommendation in the slightest", a very surprising statement for someone who hasn't actually reviewed any course and laying from the very beginning the "base" for your later contributions.


    Mr Case learnt Kang Duk Won from a classmate of Funakoshi? So the founder of Kang Duk Won and Funakoshi were studying at Okinawa and therefore that Kara-te had not yet being subjected to the variations implemented by Funakoshi to teach the children, the students, the rich and the USA army, and therefore had not the “Japanese flavor”? I’m sorry I cannot find the mistake you are talking about in your last post. Maybe I am just tired of running in circles.


    I don’t agree with you in a lot of things, and to my dismay, I find no sense in trying to dialogue with you when in fact you seem immersed in “I am right” monologue. I am sure you understand this. Maybe you have a decades-piled deeper perspective but… still not any course to look at, so again, you are making sound judgments concerning something you hadn’t even laid a finger on, opposed to those of mine, who were based in that same element your opinions were lacking, so I guess you just had to say I knew nothing about MA and rant a lot about the free stuff and Mr Case himself for your point to be successful. I would earnestly ask you not to think that my library is only composed of Mr Case’s writings, I have made my own research.


    By the way, I was using Mr Case’s approach while attending to a “real school”. No one there told me my new approach was bad or flawed, as you supposed it would happen in such circumstances, being the only difference that I was getting better faster. I should infer, then, that you are suggesting my whole school, veterans and instructors included, were wrong and that you are right.


    In my opinion, you are not expecting me or anyone to prove you Matrixing could work even though you claim so. I think you already have made up your mind about that and you are trying to validate it at all costs. Again, I have no problem with that. I just stop talking to you. This makes me truly sad, because I was willing to hear from your experience, as I told you, but I cannot as long as you refuse switching to other subject than “I am right”, a switching I have proposed a number of times, but seemed overrun by your necessity to demonstrate you are right in everything.


    Now, I guess my statements will be rebated, quoted, psychologically analyzed, turned upside down, double senses found or just plainly ignored. I don’t care because to me this has all started to look like a pointless argument. Everything I have just said is at sight.


    No hard feelings, though.
    ___________
    Tony Dismukes: I understand your concern about Aikido. When the DVD finished the people weren’t “masters”. Nonetheless, they had almost all the core concepts under their belt, and I have yet to see some place where students have that grasp after their first 80 minutes. To me, the course provided a base to work on. Concerning the explanation of Matrixing, I think Mr Case can do it better. He has some free explanative pdf in his pages.


    a)I seem vague because these posts are already large enough. My improvements were: learning about the core concepts of Aikido and its applications in an ordered fashion (joint manipulation, footwork, circling, square-triangle-circle, irimi… I am sorry I have no time to be more precise or ordered, I hope it is clear enough) and in minutes, not weeks or months. So to say, everything was laid in front of me and I just had to practice hard to pick everything up, but I knew how to study and what to look for. This speeded up my learning rate. I knew how to make a technique work because I knew the physics and anatomical principles behind it, to which some mates tried all sort of ways: jumping, pinching you in the arm, hitting you, outweighing you… That was not Aikido, and although it was most common among beginners, it hampered down their progression. An example of a mix of Mr Case’s and my own approach applied to Nikyo: instead of “try to make it work watching others and being applied the technique in yourself”, “circle the oponent’s wrist inward until it can go no more (subluxation) and hold the other arm narrower than 90º (this is debatable if another technique is to follow that Nikyo) while you stay still, do Irimi or do tenkan (which may allow to continue with Ikkyo) or both” “circle the other way and you got Kote gaeshi”, and then working on the footwork (this is not a standard lesson, just an example of how the student can learn that each technique has a counterpart doing to the other side). The work could be ordered applying the technique first standing still, then doing irimi and then doing irimi tenkan.


    b)I measure my improvements in that I knew what I was looking for in my practice to make techniques work. I knew when to act over a joint, when putting the other out of balance was the best thing to do, etc. Knowing what to do lead me to knowing how to do it by continued practice, but not practicing for the sake of it, rather with definite objectives in mind (to learn timing, i.e.). My techniques were more effectively applied (this is not polite, but I saw it in the faces of my mates whenever I accidentally over applied any, whenever before they were acting enough so I could learn more or less the motions of an opponent taken down by a technique). This meant I had to start taking care of how I applied a technique striking a delicate balance between not seriously hurting but not leaving the technique ineffective, which opened a new world of training for me, whereas before I was just struggling to figure out how a technique worked). Aikido joint work is based, and it couldn’t be otherwise, in joint behavior. A lock which could be easily applied on the wrist (ellipsoidal joint) is a different ball game in a shoulder (ball and socket joint) but doable in an ankle. Mr Case’s course encouraged me to study how each joint works, what affects each and what doesn’t, what is easy to do and what is less easy. My teacher noticed my sudden change as well as some mates who had been there for years. At first, they seemed puzzled by it. Training became something more productive than before, because I was not there waiting to find by chance the key of a technique. I already knew what to look forward to attain.




    __________________
    jks9199, your diplomacy is appreciated.
    ____________




    I will not write anything more in this thread. My interventions could fill now a booklet and I wasn’t looking after this. Each post has been an effort made out of gratitude to a man who taught me. Yes, you asked him to explain himself. Yes, he tried his best though it was not much. Yes, he left. I guess he was cleverer than me and saw where this was leading to. To me, it has lead to nowhere, and I wasn’t even trying to sell a course! I was defending each one’s right to form their own opinion as well as my right to express mine. I had to give my take, even though knowing I was going to be attacked and I wouldn’t stand a chance, so long as my papers read “white belt” and that is the measure of a man’s intelligence, effort, insights and instincts: a colored belt. I had to do this nevertheless because that’s what you do when you are grateful to someone. That’s what you do when you see there can be something good for others and you want them to discover it, although they will be the ones deciding if they follow that path or not. Enough said.


    Edward
     
  4. oaktree

    oaktree Master of Arts

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    Hi Edward,
    Maybe his ideas are interesting and thought provoking they sound pseudo scientific to me but since my main experience is in Baguazhang I can tell you what was displayed was novice level.

    Look at 0:48 see how he goes in to use Kou Bu or toe in step, he is rooted sunk so his balance is not strong.

    Notice at 1:04 Al technique.It works but you can tell the level of skill of his Baguazhang compared to the video I posted.

    If you can not find a Baguazhang teacher in your area and you want to learn it then you will have to make arrangements or travel. There is a certain Baguazhang style that is not in my area so I contacted the nearest school and made arrangements to train with them. That is the differences between the skilled and the not skilled. This lesson is something you can not learn from a video it is a life lesson training in a school with a real teacher.
    Interesting because alot of the techniques that are found in Daito ryu are found in Aikido just Ueshiba changed some of them in his idea fashion.
    Here is a quote from Stanley Pranin:
    http://www.aikidojournal.com/encyclopedia.php?entryID=723
    It makes sense since Ueshiba trained in Daito ryu the longest, taught Daito ryu and slowly with the religious sect started to create Aikido.
    I trust Stanley Pranin's work since he is well known in Aikido circles over the Spanish site you quoted.
    Also you can do a google search for Aikido and Daito ryu techniques: blog.aikidojournal.com/.../10/daito-ryu...aikido-techniques

    He trained in many different arts but in his own words:
    Is it possible Judo or Yagyu ryu or Kito ryu or any of the other styles Ueshiba studied influenced his technique its possible we may never know but we do know
    the greatest impact is Daito ryu and Omoto religion.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 24, 2014
  5. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    EdwardF - I'm not sure that anyone in this thread has stated that no one could ever take any benefit from Mr. Case's materials. The reaction we're all having is primarily to Mr. Case's claims that he has invented a totally unique and original method of teaching which allows the student to "master" an art such as aikido in just 3 months. Speaking for myself, I find that about as believable as claiming that his course will teach the student how to levitate.

    Let me ask you this. You have most of Mr. Case's videos. I presume you have applied yourself to them for at least 3 months. Do you feel that you have "mastered" aikido? Do you feel that you are anywhere close to such mastery?



    It sounds like you are the sort of student who learns more quickly when you have an overview of the theory behind an art before you start drilling the individual techniques. Me too! If you were training at a dojo where the instructor never explained anything and just expected you to imitate him by rote, then I can absolutely see where it would be helpful for you to have an introduction to the concepts behind the techniques to give yourself a handle on what you were aiming for.

    The thing is, providing that sort of conceptual framework to an art is nothing that is unique to Mr. Case. I've had lots of teachers who worked to explain the concepts before drilling down into the technical details. I often do the same when I'm teaching. Now in my experience, it's not generally useful to go over all the concepts of an art in a single class. I think it works much better to just go over the concept(s) behind the technique(s) which are being drilled in that particular class.

    It's also good to remember that a high-level map of the principles behind an art is inherently simplifying and by necessity leaves out all sorts of important details that you need to make things work. I've run into martial artists who thought they understood much more than they actually did because they could describe the high-level theory behind an art. As in anything, there is a large gap between theory and practice.


    The other thing that people are reacting to is the quality of Mr. Case's own technique, as demonstrated on the videos he has publically available. As I said earlier, I have seen worse. If Mr. Case was just participating on this site as a regular member discussing the martial arts, then I doubt too many people would go out of their way to excoriate him for his technique. The problem is that Mr. Case claims to have found a way for students to quickly reach a high level of mastery in a wide variety of martial arts. Judging from those videos, however, it does not appear that he himself has reached a high level of mastery in those arts. That being the case, it casts serious doubt on his claims.

    None of this goes to deny that his explanations of concepts might have some value for a beginning student whose teacher provides no explanation at all of concepts, which seems to be the situation you were in. A tricycle can have value. It's only a problem if I claim to be selling you a Maserati and deliver a tricycle instead.
     
  6. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    So, to get this straight, you appreciate that I have good information for you, but won't talk to me because I correct you? Hmm.

    To clarify, though, I have no need to be right by proving you wrong. I do, however, want to clarify and support my claims, and have requested answers that would help convince me that there is much of value in Al Case's material. Nothing that has been said has done such. And when it comes down to your experience, and belittling that, I would remind you that your own words describe you as having little experience... so I'm not sure why my mentioning it would be considered an attack towards you. Yeah, I'm definite in my language, but then again, I back it all up. And there has been nothing to even suggest I have been slightly off in my assessment. Still, if you don't want to keep talking, and improve your understanding of why we have issues with Al's approach, that's fine. You don't have to agree with us... but by the same token, we don't have to agree with you. I'm sure you understand that.
     
  7. matrixman

    matrixman Yellow Belt

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    Good lard, my ears is burning!


    Hi gang, this is Al Case, the culprit you have been speaking of, and I wish you all a good day.


    Eduardo! Thank you for your kind words! I truly appreciate your efforts.


    Before I say something, let me offer something…
    I’m up to 900 blogs, well over a thousand if you count some of my other sites.
    Got several sites.
    Well over 500 articles on the martial arts. I’ve lost track of how many there are.
    Over 500 newsletters, each of which is like an article.
    And, my favorite...500 PAGES OF WINS! That’s individuals who have written to say thanks.
    And, I might say, since I started MonsterMartialArts(dot)com a half dozen years ago, I have had only two returns. One of which wasn’t even opened. Apparently he made up his mind between ordering and receiving. Oh, well.
    At any rate, if you wish to see what people have had to say about my matrixing tool and a specific art, check the wins, or do a search through the blogs. There’s a lot of stuff there.


    Unfortunately, I’m not rich. Apparently I am selling my courses at an insufficient price. My fault. I figured making the material possible to everyone was better than getting rich. Oh, well. Some day.


    Now, that said, the reason I dropped out of this forum was because people were dogpiling me, and didn’t seem to be interested in finding out whether I had anything new, but rather in making themselves right.


    Well, I have no problem with that. I think everybody should be right.


    Eduardo, I am so glad you found value, I learn just as much from you. Thank you.


    And you other guys are right, there’s nothing there. It’s all a sham. I don’t think there’s even a man behind the curtain.


    So, you guys have a great day. I really wanted to just thank Eduardo, not get in a tizzy fit with any of you fine people.


    I probably won’t be back, but that shouldn’t stop you from having a great work out!


    Al
     
  8. Supra Vijai

    Supra Vijai Black Belt

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    Al, I've got a damn text message conversation with one of my best friends on my phone that is up to over 1600 messages back and forth just by itself. Impressive number but doesn't mean there is much substance there! We just put everything in text as opposed to calling each other.

    I'm not necessarily saying nothing you have to say has any substance or that articles and text messages are the same thing but it's contextual. Quantity doesn't automatically equal quality. Whilst you may have thousands of works of writing out there and hundreds of satisfied customers, if you re-read everything here, all anyone has really asked is for some explanation of what you offer in layman's terms without marketing buzz words or intricate sales pitches.

    I for one still have no idea what Matrixing actually is aside from that thing Keanu Reeves does and a chapter or 2 in my sisters high school maths textbook. Without trying to sell me on it, can you please explain to me what it actually is, how it works and how it's different to any other approach out there already? IF I could have that in plain English, I'd probably check out at least one of your programs to see if I can get anything out of it that works for me. Without knowing what I'm buying though... no sale. So yeah, looking forward to your reply
     
  9. oaktree

    oaktree Master of Arts

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    Hi Al,
    You really haven't said anything on the forum to make your case(No pun intended). A lot of us think what skills you display is at a novice level and some things that look odd.
    which is fine but you are the one who is trying to sell/market your martial art at a level that clearly by watching the video it does not match up.

    I have watched your Baguazhang video I find you have to struggle a bit to pull off the technique that is just my observation.
    When someone looks up to purchase Al Chase's videos they will look at this thread and weigh the opinion set forth from the members and yourself.
    The clearer your presentation on what it is you are attempting on selling would only help your case(again, no pun attended)

    You might not be aware of this and why some of us are a little bit skeptic and cynical in regards to things you talk about and this is due to people in the martial arts presenting things similar to what you are displaying causing some of us to rise questions and doubts.

    Anyway Mr.Chase my intentions as far as discussions involving you and what you are selling is to have a better understanding of you and your material and present my own experience either to support or contradict your findings.

    I hope we can continue to have a friendly conversation and reach a middle ground.
     
  10. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    Al, I genuinely have no idea what you thought this was going to accomplish, but for the record, a number of things need setting straight in your post here.

    Frankly, meaningless. This is the same argument as "50,000 people can't be wrong!" Well, yes they can. The 100's of thousands of other people are evidence of that. More important would be who those who claim to have found something of value in your material are... and I'm fairly sure that the vast majority, if they're real, would be people like Edward... who, let's remember, claims half a year in muay Thai, and a year in a dojo where the teaching style was leaving him not learning anything. Not what I would call experienced by a long shot. And as such, how would they know if they are getting something of quality? Next, every single blog or article of yours I've seen has been flawed in a number of ways... and more commonly, in large ways. So having 900 blogs that show a deep lack of understanding of what you're trying to talk about is hardly something to be proud of (and, let's face it, most are little more than thinly veiled ads for yourself, or oddly structured "poetry"). An example? Sure!

    Here's your latest, "How Karate Was Ruined 60 Years Ago" (http://alcase.wordpress.com/).

    In this blog, you make a point of saying that karate isn't Japanese... that it is actually Okinawan (with the techniques taken from "everywhere"?). Well, yeah. But you do miss the fact that there are Japanese Karate systems, even when discussing the JKF (as the "most powerful political Japanese karate association"... well, yeah, it's really for Japanese Karate, not the Okinawan forms, hence the name), attributing to them the idea of wearing gi, having belt ranks and so on... despite the JKF not being founded until 1964, by which time both belt (kyu/dan) ranking and gi were very well established. You go on (past some rather bizarre hyperbole of karate being "one of the most powerful closed [sic] combat systems ever. People could shatter bricks with a punch, twist green bamboo until it splintered, and sorts of other things [sic]") to complain about the JKF's Shitei Kata (compulsory kata for JKF competitions), complaining that they allow no freedom, things must be done the way that the kata dictates... ignoring the fact that the Shitei kata are one side of things, there are also Tokui Kata (personal choice kata), and the real aim of the Shitei approach was to give a level field to members from a range of karate backgrounds in competition. You rejoice at the JKF removing the Shitei kata... except that they haven't. The Shitei kata were also adopted by the WKF (World Karate Federation), and it's the WKF that have decided to remove them... so, uh, wrong. Again. You continue to claim that the Shitei kata were "nothing but some wannabe Japanese masters favourites". Dude, again, wrong.

    Gotta say, the next part is my favourite...

    You basically blame "politics", and essentially claim that the JKF shaped karate in this manner for 60 years (uh, it hasn't quite been around that long....), "and stupid people bowed and went along with it". Seriously? One of the largest governing bodies was setting standards and enabling competition between multiple styles, focusing on the Japanese forms of Karate, and people who were following their approach were "stupid"? Seriously?

    Of course, then you get even better....

    "I am so glad that I studied Kang Duk Won and never studied the bastard versions of that incredible art." Really? Oh, this has got to be a joke.... "Yes, you heard me. Bastard versions. Versions without parents." Are you freakin' kidding me here? You studied a minor Korean version of a Japanese approach to karate, which was founded by a couple of former instructors from the YMCA Kwon Bop Bu, which was headed by Yoon Byung-in, a student of Toyama Kanken (learning Shudokan Karate, a Japanese form) while at University in Tokyo, and Chuan Fa from a "Manchurian teacher" when he was younger. Yoon's students included the founders of Kang Duk Won. Now, tell me about how your system is better than, say, Shito Ryu? Or Shotokan? How it has a better pedigree than Kyokushinkai?

    Seriously, learn your own history.

    That then turns, again, into an ad for your "Matrix Karate", what you call "the only true karate" (uh, quick question, if all you know of karate is a bastardized and eclectic form, created by some students of a student of two separate arts, only one of which was karate, that was one of the nine kwans used to establish Tae Kwon Do, what on earth do you know of "true karate"?), and another plug for another of your blogs, again missing the point of what you were arguing against, and so on.

    Bear in mind that I can do that for any blog of yours I've seen, and I'm hardly going to be impressed with 900 different blogs similarly flawed. Do you want to try again?

    "Dogpiled" you? Seriously? You came on, gave a barely intelligible post, it was responded to, you didn't answer anything in your response to that, and then disappeared, even though there was really very little that was being asked at the time. You were hardly "dogpiled", Al. You were asked repeatedly, and constantly dodged the questions, instead seeking to confuse the issue with essentially marketing talk and badly presented ideas. Even the ones you had that were decent weren't well dealt with, as well as being incorrect (for example your idea that you were the only person to systematically put a martial arts approaches in a "truth table" or similar... mate, I know systems that have used that concept for over 500 years. You're hardly new with this... but you are lacking).

    See, this is the problem we're having in dealing with you, Al. Instead of actually answering the questions, you hide behind this false modesty, wanting to be seen as a victim of those who don't see the value in what you're offering... really, that isn't the case.

    Just in case you do come back, can you answer, well, any of the questions aimed at you? Otherwise, it's basically as Oaktree said... all this thread will do is show that you can't, or won't, back up anything you've claimed, and avoid questions about it from anyone who isn't your target market. And that's hardly an image of someone who really has anything of value to offer.
     
  11. Edward F

    Edward F White Belt

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    I see myself forced to break my promise not to post in this thread again.

    I will try to be more direct than I was in previous posts, and I have not reread the thread so I will try to address some points by heart:

    Chris Parker, I have done a bit of research and this is what I have found: http://www.tesoma.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2&Itemid=7
    You only teach 3:30 hours of class a week, which I assume gives you plenty of time to be a keyboard warrior and extensively quote anyone who does not agree with your view, paraphrasing from your library as if you needed the written words of others to justify your beliefs. Also, I have found other interventions of you in different forums, many showing a tendency from your part to attack anyone not agreeing with you, with hostility and arrogance, and false humbleness whenever it is finally made clear that you are wrong.

    So far, everything you have said in this thread has been oriented towards reassuring your self-appointed role as an authority, be it by covertly trying to downgrade me or overtly attacking Al because his system doesn’t fit in your scheme. Are you afraid of people learning faster than you did? Are you worried about finding that you wasted a lot of time which could have been put to a better use? If not, I don’t really understand why you so desperately try to pull people towards your personal (IMO narrow) vision of the arts.

    The problem here is not Al, but the fact that you are reviewing something you haven’t even looked at (have you bought a course in the meanwhile? I don’t think so) and discouraging people to think for themselves. Al has plenty of free stuff and articles. Anyone interested can read them and form an opinion: they don’t need your well-meaning paternalism.

    Lots of students drop out of dojos because the ones like you. Nothing you can say or quote from someone will make me change my mind concerning something I have discovered from my very own personal experience.

    Re: “I am Al with a different nick”, anyone worried about that possibility can PM the board administrator asking him to check if my IP is the same as Al’s, but it’s not even in the same country.

    Re: the books & resources Al directed me to. Among others: the Project Gutenberg page and The Dynamic Sphere book, I could put more examples, but I’m not bothering to. I doubt that he derived any material benefit from it, but who knows, that’s just my opinion.
     
  12. oaktree

    oaktree Master of Arts

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    Wow 9 months since anyone posted on this thread.
    To think Edward you have spent that time obsessed
    With chris parkers post and life is really sad.

    This thread stands on its own merit other martial artist
    Have shown that mr.case has not brought anything ground breaking
    And has a skill level of a novice his skills on YouTube and in this
    Thread have showcase it well enough. If you wished to disbelieve
    This and follow mr.case style then do so. The forum is based on opinion
    And experience. Mr. Parker on this and other forums though
    May come off as blunt some may say egocentric or arrogant (not my words)
    But his posts are well informed and he has experience to back that up.
     
  13. Edward F

    Edward F White Belt

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    I have not stated any obsession on my part, in fact I hadn't had internet connection for a while, as I stated, and I hadn't even read the last response. Re: Chris Parker (written in capital letters, mind you) a quick google search gave the info in less than a couple minutes.

    What is really sad is that you attack me like that. I don't need your compassion nor your false pity, so please refrain from using it with me.

    I am coming back because not only Al was attacked but also myself and how I understand freedom. I have no need to demonstrate you, or anyone for that matter, anything. But I wanted to say what I think of all this. Al offered to me a new way to look at the arts. I am not stating that everything he says is gold. It gave me something to think about and encouraged me to start my research on MA, a thing I would not have done were I to follow my previous path. I am not one to objectively value Al's work, but I can say it served me in my own personal way. As none of you can deny that, you try to make me look as a newbie "looking for a quick fix", even though that is not true.

    Again, I am not defending Al. He is the one to do that or not. I am defending my point of view. And concerning Chris Parker experience, I have not yet notice of his international achievements.

    BTW, you don't have to write everything in stanzas, it difficults reading.
     
  14. oaktree

    oaktree Master of Arts

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    Dude this happen like 9 months ago almost a year.
    To think that after almost a year and having to go searching
    For chris parkers school website or other forums and rehash after almost
    A year is sad in my opinion. It wasn't my intention to attack you
    But an observation of someone in my opinion is obsessed.
    Also I type on my awesome Samsung galaxy note 2 and it auto types
    For me. If you feel al cases matrix style is the best for you great.
    Other people can draw their own conclusion.
     
  15. Edward F

    Edward F White Belt

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    That's the point I tried to make since the beginning. It took "almost a year", but I am glad someone got it :)

    As I stated before, I read the final responses recently, and then I did a quick search just to be sure who was giving me his opinion, because unlike many in this thread I am open to the possibility of being wrong.

    Finally, I don't follow Al Case's style and have never stated so. That is a spurious conclusion (and not the only one to be found in this thread) drawn from your personal opinion or misunderstanding of something I said. Al inspired me and taught me some things. He has some interesting ideas. Nothing more, nothing less.

    And, it doesn't matter wether a year passed by, facts are facts, and what I said above still holds true.
     
  16. oaktree

    oaktree Master of Arts

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    Well even if you do not follow his style you did purchase his instructions.
    I had to reread some of of this thread to remember you better. You were the one going on about Ueshiba getting most of his Aikido from Judo.:drinkbeer As someone who has practice Baguazhang I can 100% tell Al Chase's Baguazhang is novice level at best. Other people in other arts have commented that Al Chases's skills are not up to par of an instructor level.
    If Al inspires you great if you are happy with what you paid for great and feel your money is well spent then more power to you.
    But for the rest of the people who read this forum who have no clue what is good or bad and wondering if they should buy his $50 DVD or take local Karate classes at the YMCA well hopefully the people on this forum who combined have decades of experience might be pointing at the local YMCA. Anyway good luck I am sure you will disappear and reappear again in another year or so.
     
  17. Edward F

    Edward F White Belt

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    I like to read lots of things because my mind is not clouded by prejudice.

    Please, show me exactly where did I say Ueshiba got "most of his Aikido from Judo", because I can't find such a statement; you are misquoting me to your advantage.

    The courses were not $50 last time I checked.

    Re: disappearing, etc. I would really like to do so and not reappear again. I don't like forums, I prefer devoting my time to researching and training, and most important, I find the general tone of this thread and the attitude of some virtual high belts a bit tiresome, to say the least. So, if I don't see fit comenting anything more I will simply delete my account.

    If that was the case, I apologize (as Al did) to anyone I could have offended here, because insulting was not my intention. Everything I stated were just my opinions and, as such, they could be wrong.

    Good luck to you too.
     
  18. Aiki Lee

    Aiki Lee Master of Arts

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    Who cares if he doesn't spend the majority of his time teaching? That has nothing to do with whether or not his arguments are valid.

    I have seen Chris directly confront opinions he believes are wrong and/or dangerous to hold on to. I have never seen him directly attack a person on this site only his or her arguments. Nobody likes hearing harsh truths, I know I don't, but they are necessary for growth. When I ask his opinion I want an honest response, and I know I will get it. I would rather have a harsh criticism that helps me grow than a useless ego stroking.

    I would suggest re-reading the thread if you truly are open minded. Even if you end up not agreeing with Chris's posts you should be able to see that he at least backs up his statements with logical thinking. If you feel he is wrong then you have to attack his reasoning, not his character.
     
  19. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

    • MartialTalk Mentor
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    Oh boy. Well, as I seem to be a focus here, might as well weigh in again....

    What on earth "forced" you to "break your promise"? Certainly none of us here... you did that to yourself. You had no reason to come back, nothing to add, and this is all just a case of sour-grapes (or, at least, comes across that way). But let's examine, shall we?

    Oh, good. You were "forced" to come back... but didn't re-read the thread to remember what it was you were "forced" to answer? Really?

    Ah, but there's a few issues here.... yes, I teach 3 and a half hours (well, three and three quarters, really) a week standard... but also train in a couple of other things another 6+ hours a week (which has me teaching or training 5 nights a week), teach another 3 hour class on occasional Saturdays, work full-time (which includes most weekends, as well as late/long shifts on Fridays), have quite a schedule of personal home training, and a social life. But I suppose googling didn't give you my other activities, did it? Additionally, I don't attack. I make strong, clear, and backed up arguments. And it's damn rare that I'm "shown to be wrong", for the record.... but when my take is challenged, and forced to adapt, there's no "false humility".

    Try again, kid.

    No, son, you really should have re-read the thread.... I haven't downgraded you, I've simply used your own comments to point out certain facts about your lack of experience and knowledge. And I'm not "afraid" of people learning faster than myself (as I said earlier, we use fast-track learning ourselves), I'm more concerned with the detail that Al's approach doesn't actually seem to qualify as learning what he's claiming it does... and none of his comments, yours, or anything else, have challenged that take on things. And as far as my vision of martial arts being "narrow", wow, you really don't have a clue who you're talking to, do you? My background is probably more rounded than any you've come across, including Al's. As well as deeper.

    All Al's articles are flawed, inaccurate, thinly veiled ads, and so forth. If they're indications of the quality of material he puts out, why on earth would I want to buy one of his courses? I've demonstrated that a number of times, for the record, most notably in the last post (an answer to Al) here.

    Please. Students drop out of dojo's because of people who know what they're talking about? Right...

    Hmm, I thought you hadn't re-read the thread...?

    Doesn't really mean much... especially things like the Project Gutenberg page.

    Right.... maybe some deeper research would be advised? Oh, and coming back 9 months later to, well, just attempt an attack on someone who disagreed with you does certainly come across as rather obsessive, you know...

    Hmm, that didn't look like an attack from Oaktree, really... more an observation on your action. The post he replied to, though....

    And, for the nth time in this thread, if you got something out of it, great. But we're not going to recommend what is a flawed, and highly ill-advised approach that denies the realities of martial arts from a source that makes constant and consistent errors in technique, history, philosophy, understanding, knowledge, and more. Okay?

    "International achievements"? Seriously, what?!? You do know that the systems I study have no such thing, yeah? And, for the record, other than Al's own self-publicizing methods, he doesn't really have anything like any "international achievements" to speak of either...

    It's part of Oaktree's charm...

    Seriously, read the thread. That's been said (to you) from the beginning. But again, just because we agree that everyone can make up their own mind, doesn't mean we are in any way going to advocate, endorse, recommend, or even suggest that such a path is a good idea. Especially with the concerns, and the availability of better alternatives.

    Please. You haven't shown the slightest indication of being open to anything of the kind. And, if you want to know who is giving you the information and opinion, you're talking to someone who has been researching (studying) martial approaches for 30 years, training for 25, including 20 years in his primary system, has trained in modern, sporting systems, RBSD systems, modern non-sporting systems, and very old arts. I have experience in BJJ, boxing, MMA, TKD, karate, Aikido, Iai, Ninjutsu, Koryu, RBSD (with a few different people), and far more. My current routines include teaching or training 5 nights a week, with a solid home-training regime in addition. I constantly read, research, and engage with practitioners of an incredibly wide variety of backgrounds, again, from very old (Koryu) systems through to very modern, cutting edge approaches to RBSD. I am familiar with the structure of more martial systems than you probably know exist, as well as the training and teaching pedagogy of them. Additionally, I am versed in a range of teaching methodology, as well as learning methods such as NLP, and more.

    Any of that come up in google searching for me? Or did you just get the English actor and the jazz drummer?

    Please. You came along here to say how good it was, we asked for your background to ascertain how you know it was good, and haven't shown anything to support your ability to make a real, reasoned appraisal. You have commented that your use of Al's material helped you in your "real" classes, although the classes were spoken of in a past tense, so I'm not sure when you got Al's material (near the beginning of your Aikido time, or the end...?). Now you're saying that you don't follow his approach, but he has some interesting ideas, that's all? Really?

    You haven't presented any facts, though. You've presented an attempted attack towards myself, and missed the mark quite badly, and added nothing to your previous arguments. What was the point of your return again?

    Yeah... you told me that I gave you good information that would be a valuable resource, but are going to ignore me because I argued with you, but you're not clouded by prejudice? Really?

    Most? Nope. But in post 82, you talk about being able to see "which Aikido techniques came from Judo" (uh, none, really), which then continued in post 89, where you tried to give an example (Koshi Nage and Sumi Otoshi). Thing is, the Aikido methods that use that terminology didn't come from Judo, they came from Daito Ryu... which I showed in post 93. And, you were completely wrong. So no, Oaktree isn't "misquoting you to his advantage", but it could be argued that he's slightly misrepresenting what you said... but not by a lot.

    Honestly, if they were 50 cents, I'd consider them overpriced.

    So you don't like forums, don't have consistent internet access, don't "follow Al Case's style", don't have any vested commercial or financial interests in his material, can't counter any observations or criticisms, don't like dealing with people telling you you're wrong, don't like the "tone" of this thread (as it disagrees with you, although there is nothing you've said to make your case any better), find the attitude here a "bit tiresome" (because we get a little blunt when needing to repeat the same thing over and over again...?), but you still came back to add nothing to the thread? If you don't like forums, don't log on. If you don't want to be here, you're not being forced to.

    But we don't delete accounts. You don't want to be here, don't be here. That's up to you.

    Al didn't apologize for anything. And yes, insulting was your intention (if it wasn't, you need to look at how you write, and what you say). And I thought you said you were posting nothing but facts, now they're opinions? Hmm....

    Oh, and yeah, they are wrong.

    Right.
     
  20. Cyriacus

    Cyriacus Senior Master

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    How did i miss this gem of a thread?

    Comment from a third party (me):
    "So far, everything you have said in this thread has been oriented towards reassuring your self-appointed role as an authority, be it by covertly trying to downgrade me or overtly attacking Al because his system doesn’t fit in your scheme. Are you afraid of people learning faster than you did?"

    Now, i cant help but think that someone providing their input on things is the exact opposite of slowing down peoples learning curves. Particularly if its useful.

    "
    And concerning Chris Parker experience, I have not yet notice of his international achievements."

    I cant really speak for other peoples systems, but as far as i know, Chris Parker is indeed inexperienced in earning international achievements. Much like how my cat is inexperienced in the art of barking.

    And finally, i shall actually look at the video in question.
    Oh, wait, its been removed.
    To the blog!

    "


    But,


    what if I didn’t care about that?


    What if a cousin came to me,


    said there were bullies who were going to beat him up on monday


    could I teach him to fight over the weekend?


    Hmmm.


    Yes.


    No prob.


    There are two things to consider,


    one,


    his basics.


    Two,


    enough actual fighting experience.


    Depending on the situation,


    I might focus on things like


    poking somebody in the eye.


    But,


    maybe it’s a school situation,


    and I don’t want him to come home


    with a felony on his record,


    so…


    two days in which to train him


    how to have a straight wrist when punching.


    And I have to do it,


    without wearing him out.


    So you get a light ball


    and throw it at him,


    and have him punch it back to you.


    Or kick it back to you.


    If he punches it wrong it flies to the side.


    So his timing must be


    impeccable.


    The other thing,


    get him enough fighting experience.


    So rhythmic freestyle


    until it comes out of his ears.


    That’s on the Matrix Karate course.


    Get him used to moving,


    blocking,


    hitting back.


    Slow enough so he doesn’t tire out,


    and you can keep going


    and going


    and going!


    And,


    spice it up with hours of rolling fists,


    right out of the How to Fight course.


    Now,


    those two things,


    basics


    and actual fight experience,


    and then spice it up with lots of little things.


    Work him for 15 to 20 minutes of freestyle,


    then practice hitting him on the body,


    on the shoulders,


    in the head,


    in the face.


    Very light,


    very controlled,


    slowly giving him the idea


    of what a hit is like,


    and let him practice not getting flustered.


    Now,


    I don’t particular like what I am saying here,


    because I am training to fight.


    I am not training for the long view,


    for the peace of mind


    that comes with learning the true art.


    But,


    this is the real world,


    and somebody is not going to stick around


    long enough to learn the real art,


    if they are getting beat up on the street.


    So it is valid


    to make him survive,


    and polish him up later.


    But,


    it is a severe second choice


    to training him from the ground up


    as an artist.


    So,


    you want to train somebody fast,


    heck,


    you have to train somebody fast,


    or,


    here’s a good one,


    you want to train somebody to stay aware


    in the middle of a fight,


    what I have told you here


    is the start.


    Heck,


    notice that on the front page of monster,


    it is designated as second black belt material.


    It is advanced,


    on the fighting side of things,


    very advanced,


    but,


    simple.


    But that’s the truth of your studies.


    If it is simple,


    it is going to be easier to remember,


    and easier to make work,


    to use in a fight.


    But,


    I would prefer that you use it


    to build on the classical.


    As I said,


    I don’t like it,


    just teaching fighting,


    but who cares?


    Your life


    is more important


    than what I like.


    Right?


    Oinky dokey.


    Remember the URL…


    http://www.monstermartialarts.com/Learn_How_to_Fight.html


    Now,


    have a great week end,


    a great work out,


    and I’ll talk to you later.


    Al


    "


    And to think, Edward thought Oaktree used stanzas.


    Well, all i have to say is, id have just suggested the kid take the day off school, or let himself get knocked down right away, or just hit first. *shrugs*

    123
     

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