Marc MacYoung On SD & The Martial Arts
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threethirty
Yellow Belt
I agree and disagree at the same time. I find many of the things I have learned could be extreamly useful in SD situations. I mean the way most people hold guns until they are fired they are just punches that someone has held out there for you to engage. But he is right most MA don't prepare your for urban SD. At the same time I think he is hard selling and that always puts me off.
This is something I think a lot about, but I think it maybe a lack of confidence in myself, and its not like I'm gonna go out and pick a fight to test my kung-fu
This is something I think a lot about, but I think it maybe a lack of confidence in myself, and its not like I'm gonna go out and pick a fight to test my kung-fu
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Well, I know this is a big surprise to everyone, but I'm in agreement with Marc on this (as well). Yeah, he's doing his "hard sell" approach (again!), and his scope is still very limited, as I'd go a lot further in adding non-sporting martial arts as well, but it's really not any different to the same things I've been saying for a while now.
So, yeah, fun article. He just really needs to dial down the "I'm the only one telling you the truth!" aspect, cause, frankly, he ain't.
So, yeah, fun article. He just really needs to dial down the "I'm the only one telling you the truth!" aspect, cause, frankly, he ain't.
Mark always points out some really good stuff. However, he is a businessman so he does have a hard sell. Still, I always enjoy reading his stuff and agreeing and disagreeing with parts of it!
Aiki Lee
Master of Arts
Yeah, he's preaching to the choir here.
ATACX GYM
2nd Black Belt
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I too agree with much of what he says,including the distinction between strip mall and low intensity martial arts self-defense and education.However,I also agree with Chris Parker and most other posters here: it's clear he's doing hard sell,it's clear he's pretty knowledgeable,and it's most certainly clear that non-tourney oriented only martial arts aren't also very very well equipped to teach most categories of civilian self-defense and need relatively minimal tweaking to be very serviceable for practically all noncivilians.
I really like what Marc Mac Young teaches. I have several of his books and he opened my eyes on the "non fighting" aspects of self defense.
I only have one problem with what he writes (he is not the only one, I have seen it written here too and heard it from Trad MA practitioners):
Sport MA are for sport and are inferior to Trad MA when it comes to defending yourself.
I have practiced both and I strongly disagree with the statement Trad MA guys make.
Ok, when you learn boxing, you do not learn 1000 ways of killing a guy with your small toe but you get fit (so you can run faster, longer and still be able to fight if the guy catches you), you practice against resisting opponents (as close as it can get from the real thing if you are not willing to do some field testing in a biker's bar), you learn to strike fast and hard, you learn to get in, hit and get out, you know how it feels to get punched in the face and are less likely to be so disturbed about it that you freeze...
I think all these points are clearly a huge advantage in sport oriented MAs.
Of course, lots of Trad MA guys will tell me that Trad MAs offer the same thing but I disagree.
Trad MAs will get you fit, yes, but won t get as far as sport MAs go regarding this point
Trad MAs teach you deadly moves to end the fight fast but you never practice them at real speed, against a really resisting opponent (for obvious safety reasons) and the worse of all, during a recent seminar, I noticed that I knew several different ways to end the fight once I grab an arm. All of them would break something, all of them would be excessive use of force against a simple punch (let's be honest, this IS what happens the most, at least in Europe) and by using my Trad MA stance and training, I was not able to get into position to use these techniques if the guy did not "give" his arm to me. Strangely, when I switched stance and came back to a boxing/Muay Thai stance, I was then able to get in and out at will...
This is not another "BJJ is better than anything else or Trad MAs s*ck". But I am quite annoyed by the usual "Trad MAs are all you need, sport MAs are for the ring and I don t have to prove it, my Trad MA comes from the <insert name here> deadly warriors clan".
On other things, Mac Young books and web site are extremely interesting and can, in deed, add a lot to any MA I have practiced. Let's say that I consider "his" style as a very interesting and well rounded mix of MAs. No doubt about the efficiency but he tends to forget that most of us are not experienced in street fighting and because of this, he tends to forget about what happens before you can apply the technique (ie: the guy gets in and punches instead of nicely giving you his arm).
I only have one problem with what he writes (he is not the only one, I have seen it written here too and heard it from Trad MA practitioners):
Sport MA are for sport and are inferior to Trad MA when it comes to defending yourself.
I have practiced both and I strongly disagree with the statement Trad MA guys make.
Ok, when you learn boxing, you do not learn 1000 ways of killing a guy with your small toe but you get fit (so you can run faster, longer and still be able to fight if the guy catches you), you practice against resisting opponents (as close as it can get from the real thing if you are not willing to do some field testing in a biker's bar), you learn to strike fast and hard, you learn to get in, hit and get out, you know how it feels to get punched in the face and are less likely to be so disturbed about it that you freeze...
I think all these points are clearly a huge advantage in sport oriented MAs.
Of course, lots of Trad MA guys will tell me that Trad MAs offer the same thing but I disagree.
Trad MAs will get you fit, yes, but won t get as far as sport MAs go regarding this point
Trad MAs teach you deadly moves to end the fight fast but you never practice them at real speed, against a really resisting opponent (for obvious safety reasons) and the worse of all, during a recent seminar, I noticed that I knew several different ways to end the fight once I grab an arm. All of them would break something, all of them would be excessive use of force against a simple punch (let's be honest, this IS what happens the most, at least in Europe) and by using my Trad MA stance and training, I was not able to get into position to use these techniques if the guy did not "give" his arm to me. Strangely, when I switched stance and came back to a boxing/Muay Thai stance, I was then able to get in and out at will...
This is not another "BJJ is better than anything else or Trad MAs s*ck". But I am quite annoyed by the usual "Trad MAs are all you need, sport MAs are for the ring and I don t have to prove it, my Trad MA comes from the <insert name here> deadly warriors clan".
On other things, Mac Young books and web site are extremely interesting and can, in deed, add a lot to any MA I have practiced. Let's say that I consider "his" style as a very interesting and well rounded mix of MAs. No doubt about the efficiency but he tends to forget that most of us are not experienced in street fighting and because of this, he tends to forget about what happens before you can apply the technique (ie: the guy gets in and punches instead of nicely giving you his arm).
OP
- Thread Starter
- #8
I like alot of Marcs stuff. I have a few of his books and yes, they are a very interesting read. But, like others have already said, he does come off as the 'know it all' type, and in some cases, when he makes a claim, there are times when I dont see anything backed up. For example...I posted an article for discussion on here, a while back, on what he called knife fighting lies. He was talking about some of the myths of the blade. He went on to say what he felt would/would not work, but for the things that he said would not work, I didn't see anything from him saying how he would address the situation.
I do agree with some of the article though...many MA schools are addressing only a small portion of the SD arena, which is usually what I like to call the 'during phase' in which someone is actually in the process of attacking. Rare do we see what I call the 'before' and 'after' phase. What could we have dont before the physical confrontation? What are we to expect afterwards?
Regarding the never-ending sport art vs. TMA...well, I look at it like this...I train what we could call a TMA, but I take some of the sport aspects and add them into my training. I have friends who do both a TMA and a sport art. IMO, I think that they can each benefit from each other....of course, depending on how each is trained.
I do agree with some of the article though...many MA schools are addressing only a small portion of the SD arena, which is usually what I like to call the 'during phase' in which someone is actually in the process of attacking. Rare do we see what I call the 'before' and 'after' phase. What could we have dont before the physical confrontation? What are we to expect afterwards?
Regarding the never-ending sport art vs. TMA...well, I look at it like this...I train what we could call a TMA, but I take some of the sport aspects and add them into my training. I have friends who do both a TMA and a sport art. IMO, I think that they can each benefit from each other....of course, depending on how each is trained.
I do not like but can appreciate the writing style Marc often uses and as with most that offer lots of strongly held and worded opinions on various subjects, i find myself to various degrees agreeing with some opinions and disagreeing with others. Marc in person is a really nice guy and he is willing to address any questions or issues hands on at his seminars.
Regards
Brian King
Regards
Brian King
So, right away, what the hell does a schools location have to do with self defense? So what if its in a strip Mall.
Sean
Sean
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
You know I was wondering the same thing
There is one hell of an MAist in my area that started his school in a strip mall, he was there for yearrs and he was the teacher of choice by local LEOs and SWAT personnel… and still does teach them.. but he is no longer in a strip mall… he moved to a an old factory.
Now a BJJ Black (I think, he may still be brown...I will have to check) under Carlos Machado and he has trained a lot of Muay Thai and shoot fighting too and now teaches MMA
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
And some of them are damn good... try and find an old school CMA sifu in anyplace and you will likely not find one
No argument here!
OP
- Thread Starter
- #16
IMO, its probably an assumption that if you're in a strip mall, that you're more interested in the cash, and how many black belts you have running around, instead of teaching quality material. This may/may not be true, depending on the person. No, I dont agree that every strip mall school is a mcdojo.
OTOH, I agree with Xue. I've had some of the best workouts in a backyard, garage, etc. IMO, many times, you'll find that the smaller garage type schools can be more picky with who they let train with them. In other words, leave your ego at the door, and be ready to put in some blood, sweat, tears and hard work.
OTOH, I agree with Xue. I've had some of the best workouts in a backyard, garage, etc. IMO, many times, you'll find that the smaller garage type schools can be more picky with who they let train with them. In other words, leave your ego at the door, and be ready to put in some blood, sweat, tears and hard work.
OTOH, I agree with Xue. I've had some of the best workouts in a backyard, garage, etc. IMO, many times, you'll find that the smaller garage type schools can be more picky with who they let train with them. In other words, leave your ego at the door, and be ready to put in some blood, sweat, tears and hard work.
Yeah, what happened to those days? That's how we do it!
OP
- Thread Starter
- #18
Yeah, what happened to those days? That's how we do it!
I"d probably have to say it has to do with one, a few or all of the following: a) people are afraid that they'll actually have to train, b) that they may get injured, c) that they wont be able to get fancy belts and constant pats on the back, d) that its not in a 'traditional' setting. Theres probably more, but thats what comes to mind at the moment.
I still enjoy the non dojo setting workouts. Like I said, thats where I get my best lessons.
I"d probably have to say it has to do with one, a few or all of the following: a) people are afraid that they'll actually have to train, b) that they may get injured, c) that they wont be able to get fancy belts and constant pats on the back, d) that its not in a 'traditional' setting. Theres probably more, but thats what comes to mind at the moment.
I still enjoy the non dojo setting workouts. Like I said, thats where I get my best lessons.
No argument here! Couldn't have said it better myself!
I am not seeing the connection.IMO, its probably an assumption that if you're in a strip mall, that you're more interested in the cash, and how many black belts you have running around, instead of teaching quality material. This may/may not be true, depending on the person. No, I dont agree that every strip mall school is a mcdojo.
OTOH, I agree with Xue. I've had some of the best workouts in a backyard, garage, etc. IMO, many times, you'll find that the smaller garage type schools can be more picky with who they let train with them. In other words, leave your ego at the door, and be ready to put in some blood, sweat, tears and hard work.
