Man this place is dead!

[fissure]

tshadowchaser, it would be great if all MA stylists could compete at the Olympics. Personally I don't see it happening.The Koreans have invested far too much time (20+ yrs) and money into getting TKD as an Olympic event.They have systematically outmaneuvered every other MA organization in this regaurd.I don't think they are gioing to be willing to share thier 'prize' with any other MA.

I started my Martial Arts training in TKD. My classes where typical of what Fissure stated. We where not allowed to throw a punch unless we had thrown 5 kicks befor or between punchs.

This is unfortunate!TKD is a comprehensive MA.Unfortunatly MANY school focus on competion to the exclusion of everything else.The reason is simple - little Billy can quickly advance in sport TKD (of course his tech. isn't great, he can hardly throw a punch and has no clue as to self defence or real fighting tech) he wins states and goes on to national competition.Next thing you no his name is on the USTU web site.As he gets older he does well at adult nationals, and there is even talk of him making the Olympic team!!!!!This is a real easy sell for an instructor.Parents get stars in their eyes, and gladly fork over 100 dollars a month for the chance.
This doesn't describe all TKD dojang.Some teach all aspects of the MA.I personnaly feal the number of the later is steadily dropping.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Fissure, Your last paragraph states exaactly how the local Tkd school is run. All you see in the paper is pictures of his"Olimpic" team members. The rest of his class seems not to exsist.

 

[Kempojujutsu]

Received a flyer today for Tae Kwon Do Tournament to be held in Decatur, IL. Since I am not a TKD school I threw it away. I did look at the sparring rules. They didn't allow any punches to the head at all. Kicks could be done to the head. I have never really understood this method of sparring. you can kick to the head but can't punch it.
Bob

 

[fissure]

The rules are set up to encourage kicking tech.The theory is that once inside players would just slug it out until someone dropped, with no hand padding of any kind this would'nt take long.There is also no foot protection, but landing a solid head kick is usually alot harder than smacking them in the mouth with a punch.I've posted in other threads my opinion on the pros and cons of WTF copetion vs. point matches.They both have their plus side.

 

[Colin Thomas]

I practice TKD and feel a little defensive about the criticisms above. However I think most relate to schools practising WTF style TKD. This is the organisation that governs the Olympic competition.

My own school is affiliated to the ITF whose techniques and sparring rules differ from the WTF. We are allowed to punch to the head or the body (we wear padding on hands and feet). In fact we are encouraged to develop a healthy mix of foot and hand techniques when sparring.

During class we practise both hand techniques, foot techniques and combinations of the two. Also hand techniques feature strongly in both one-step sparring and self-defense.

Colin
5th kup

 

[Rouge_Fist]

I only get to see posts about once a day so I'm a little behind on this discussion.
I did mean that I would rather see a more open representation of Martial art styles in the Olimpics. I feel that many people will get a false impression of the martial arts in general and of many TKD also by what is displayed .
I agree that the WTF has spent a great deal of time , effort, and most likely money to get to be the only "kick - punch" sport. Not to much punching however.
I have a 4th in TKD from many many years ago and knew some good fighters that used their hands and feet both but I have seen a general decline of the TKD schools that instructed hands. Most seem to have gone to no or very litte contact with the hands. Most also seem interestd in teaching high kicks for street tactics.
In general the pratictioners seem to be more intrested in being pretty withtheir techniques rather than practical theses days. AT lest in MY area. Sorry I do not mean to offend anyone with these statements I am just stateing an opion on what I am seeing lately.
Also trying to get some discussion going .
Rouge

 

[fissure]

Collin, welcome to the board.First I must say that I intend no offence.I have been in TKD for a long time myself.I try to use words such as most and many in my post, for there are always exceptions to anything MA schools included.I agree with your ITF/WTF comparison.I teach at a WTF dojang, however I have stated many times in several forums my decidedly non-WTF stlye of instruction.There is nothing inherently wrong with TKD, regardless of which org. your school belongs to.I think the problem comes when tourament training becomes the focus of the instruction.By the way, welcome to the board!I was born in London, and lived in sussex until 1985.
Rouge_Fist,

I have seen a general decline of the TKD schools that instructed hands. Most seem to have gone to no or very litte contact with the hands. Most also seem interestd in teaching high kicks for street tactics.

I could'nt agree more.Infact it seems to have become my own little crusade to fight this dumbing down of TKD instruction here at Martial Talk.This type of thing can easily be halted and reversed if enough instructors focus on teaching MA, rather than a sport only concept.I'm starting to think I may be the only TKD player with calloused knuckles!:EG:

 

[Colin Thomas]

fissure

Thanks for the welcome. Did you start your TKD training while still in Sussex or in the US? I'm based in Maidenhead, about 15-20 miles outside London.

I get the impression from other postings on the board that the number of WTF schools in the US seem to greatly outnumber the ITF ones. Without knowing any statistics it seems to be more even in the UK.

Does the fact that "you teach at a WTF dojang, but in a decidedly non-WTF stlye of instruction" imply that the WTF is a much looser organisation than the ITF? The ITF seems to lay down technique and tuls as detailed in General Choi's encyclopaedia and are tested at the gradings. However the content and drills used in lessons is still determined by the instructor. The ITF, not being connected to the Olympics, seems to be much less sports-based. Although we have tournaments the instruction doesn't seem tailored just to that aim - certainly not in my school anyway.

 

[fissure]

Colin, I didn't start TKD until I moved to the States.In England I spent 3yrs. in Judo and 3 1/2yrs, in Shotokan.If there had been a Shotokan school near me over here, I would have stayed with it.The WTF if MUCH larger over here than any other TKD org.Has TKD grown in GB?When I was there Japanese Karate was king!
When I say non-WTF stlyle of teaching,my intent is to convey a class centering around a traditional approch.Lots of hand tech., self defence, grappling and such.There are definate and consistant requirments for advancement in the WTF, as sent forth by the Kukkiwan.The problem is that many schools over look some of these as long as students can spar well.(notice I said spar, not fight!).

However the content and drills used in lessons is still determined by the instructor.

This is what I am talking about also.
I lived in the town of Crawley, near Gatwick(s.p.) airport.I have heard it has grown alot!Man that seems like a lifetime ago!

 

[Colin Thomas]

fissure

I haven't ever seen any published figures about the number of students practising each MA in the UK but just going on the number of schools listed when I was looking around to start something, I would say that Karate is still much more widely practiced than TKD.

What elements do you include in the ability to fight rather than those needed to spar? Is this distinct from self-defence techniques? How do you teach them?

Colin

 

[Colin Thomas]

Rouge_Fist

I don't really see any chance of other MAs being merged with the TKD competition. The olympics just doesn't work like that.

Presently they have 2 grappling-like sports as seperate events; greco-roman wrestling and judo. If you're arguing that you shouldn't keep a sports identity in the olympics why don't they merge these two? And even include other arts like BJJ in that competition too?

The only way other arts will be represented is if they can convince the IOC to include their arts as a new event. Does anyone know if any other MAs are being considered? I seem to remember reading that if Beijing had won the contest to host an olympics (instead of Sydney?) they planned to include at least one MA as a demonstration event - the precursor to full inclusion.

Colin

 

[fissure]

Colin:

What elements do you include in the ability to fight rather than those needed to spar? Is this distinct from self-defence techniques? How do you teach them?

The most imprtant is teaching application outside of competition rules.The same rules that protect players also create dagerous situations.
e.g. point sparring: weak "flicking" side kick lands, action is stopped, point is awarded.
fighting: same kick lands, gets trapped, you end up on your head.
Fighting is just that.Self defence includes fighting, but also a learned mindset not to allow certain situation to arise in life.
example- locking your front door when you go out at night.
open the door , while you are standing inside the house put the key in the lock, step outside pulling the door closed with the key.Turn the key while still facing away from the door.This is good for single women, instead if stepping outside turning to face the door, and while fumbling with the keys/lock, getting grabbed from behind.
There is nothing wrong with sparring - I love it!But a MA instructor has a responsibility to make sure those doing it understand they are only engaged in a contact sporting event.Other wise you are giving a huge false sense of security.
Only one mans opinion!

 

[Colin Thomas]

fissure

OK, I see that the instructor can play an important role by discussing application of techniques. But doesn't any sparring training, in any art, negate your effectiveness in a fight? Wouldn't any ingrained reaction, combination or muscle memory learnt in sparring come to the fore in a fight? If so how do you train for both without affecting both?

Colin

 

[fissure]

Do you believe boxers are reducing their 'Street' effectiveness by boxing in a ring under their rules?They can't kick, grab,throw, sweep, knee ,elbow,ect. ect.
I personaly think the answer to your question

But doesn't any sparring training, in any art, negate your effectiveness in a fight?

is no.
Sparring, helps with timming, movement,reaction speed.Also is full contact is used, it's nice to know what it's like to get hit before it happens in the real world!:EG:

 

[sweeper]

I would agrue that without some kind of sparring training or getting into a fight to practice you are actualy probably limiting your versatility in a real confrontation.

 

[fissure]

I want to make my stance on this issue clear, just so there is no missunderstanding. I beleive sparring is good for a martial artist, as long as it is kept in perspective, and understood for what it is.The problem I have with tournament training is when it goes from one aspect of training, to the focus or mainstay of the practitioners regiment ( as with MANY WTF dojang).

 

[OldBean]

Colin,
Where do you train in Maidenhead? - I work in Maidenhead. Is it Brown ITF? or the school in a village hall?

 

[sweeper]

well sparring doens't nessisaraly mean tournament sparring

 

[Colin Thomas]

OldBean

I train with Bytomic TKD at Altwood School, Maidenhead on Monday and Thursday. Bytomic have various schools in the Thames Valley/London area. So I also train at Slough on Tuesday and at Reading on Saturday.

Where do you work? Do you train in Maidenhead or the town where you live?

Colin

 

[OldBean]

Colin,
I do Wing Tsun in Slough but work next to the train station in Maidenhead.