MACaver

[Flatlander]

Not alive, yet growing. And old. How old are these things?

 

[Lisa]

MACaver,

Those pics are amazing. I am really appreciating this thread. I am learning so much about caving and have a new found facination for them. Thank you so much.

Pleae keep them coming.

 

[MA-Caver]

Not alive, yet growing. And old. How old are these things?

Boy did you ask the right question... okay... here goes.
When I first started studying caves (for fun) I learned at the time it was thought that some speleothems are millions of years old. However new research and geological studies show different. I googled it and was astonded by the technobabble of these guys. For example and break out your thinking caps (and a bottle of asprin)...

http://karst.planetresources.net/speleothem_growth_climate.htm
Variations of similar magnitude can be caused by changes of the partial pressure of carbon dioxide in the cave air. The rates decrease with increasing pressure, and deposition may even be inhibited completely if the supersaturated solutions have calcium concentrations below that of apparent equilibrium. As an example this apparent equilibrium is at 1.4 mmole/l for 10
and a carbon dioxide pressure of 10-3 atm. in the cave air. Taken this all together, we conclude that growth rates are determined by many parameters in a very conflicting way. Thus an increase of growth rates caused by a climatically induced increase in soil carbon dioxide might well be counter- balanced by decreasing temperatures which reduce the growth rates.
Not only the growth rates of speleothems but also their shapes depend on variables determined by climate. We present computer simulations for the shapes of stalagmites from the beginning of their growth until they have obtained their final stable equilibrium form (3). This shape follows from two simple principles: a) the growth is always perpendicular to the present surface, and b) the growth rates decrease with increasing distance x from the axis of the stalagmite. Fig. 2 shows the growth history of stalagmites which differ in their growth conditions only by differing initial surfaces upon which they started to grow. The lower curves represent the shapes
of stalagmite for time intervals D T in arbitrary units. The upper curves show the stable equilibrium shape, which is independent of the
initial surface. Note that the diameter scale is magnified by a factor of 5. The real shape is given by the dotted curves. In all these calculations it was assumed that the growth rate perpendicular to the present surface is given by f(x) = f(0) exp(-l(x)/l ) , where l(x) is the length on the surface of the stalagmite from the drip point at x = 0 to x. It turns out that in this case the diameter of the stalagmite is D=2× l .
The diameter of a stalagmite growing under constant conditions is furthermore given by D2=4V/× (d × p[1-exp(-a T/d )] ) (1) where V is the volume of the feeding drop, T the time interval (in year) between two drops, d is the depth (in cm) of the water sheet covering the speleothem, and a is the slope of the deposition rate curve, represented by Fig.1. Note that the diameter does not depend on the Ca-concentration of the supersaturated solution. On the basis of the arguments above we will present simulations,
which show how climatic variations can lead to various shapes. Decreasing water supply leads to conical shaped stalagmites, which often are encountered in caves. Increasing water supply gives club shaped stalagmites, whereas periodic changes in feed rates lead to periodic changes in the diameter. Thus studies of the stratigraphy of stalagmites might give supplementary information.
The growth rate of a regular stalagmite is shown to be W=1.17*106*(Ceq-c)(I-exp(-a T/d ))*d /T [cm/year] (2) where c is the calcium concentration of the feeding water and Ceq the apparent equilibrium concentration in mole/l.
This is valid for D>3.5 cm, the minimum diameter of a stalagmite. In combination with eqn. 1 we therefore can correlate growth rate and diameter, Which can be a useful information when selecting samples in a cave.
The image at right is a Laser Scanning Confocal Microscopy fluorescent image of a stalagmite (image taken at The University of Iowa Central Electron Microscopy Facility). The light (bright) bands are fluorescent and the gray (dark) bands are non-fluorescent. These bands are believed to represent spring-to-summer (brigth) and fall-to-spring (dark) calcite growth. Fluorescent growth banding allow us to identify yearly growth and thus generate absolute chronologies. Image height is approximate 0.6 mm.

Essentially what you're looking at (pic) is a cross section of a speleothem and you can see the microscopic growth rings.
In layman's terms: (quotes are from a caver's discussion board when I posed Flatlander's question...

I know that soda straws can range with the amount of moisture. some can grow an inch in less than 20 years while some grow an inch in 100 years.

I know new studies are being done to ascertian the age of various speleothems. I recall that years ago it was guessimated that some stals are millions of years old. But now the ages are ranging from several thousands to several hundreds of thousands years in age for the larger ones.
I do know that much of the growth is factored by amount of surface water working it's way through the cracks, amount of minerals in the surface above the cave, etc. etc. etc. that helps determine the growth rate.

A few months (documented) to probably tens of millions of years are good figures. Stal growth rates vary about as much as height spurts in teenage people. Just all depends.

So thus, why we are very careful when we enter caves and we sometimes keep cave locations secret or gate them. The damage is literally forever. I've seen caves gutted out within a year or less of their discovery and public announcement. Sometimes the damage is subtle taking dozens of years or decades. Cavers are not perfect... BUT I have seen caves where controlled by cavers (as opposed to Spelunkers and the general public) that they are still relatively pristine. Traffic and wear and tear and oops do make themselves apparent but it's gradual and not noticable unless one is trained or experienced to see it.

Those pics are amazing. I am really appreciating this thread. I am learning so much about caving and have a new found facination for them. Thank you so much. Please keep them coming.

You are most welcomed m'lady. Many thanks to Flatlander who started all of this. :asian: :asian: :asian:

 

[Flatlander]

So, quite old then, in some circumstances. Fascinating. That's pretty old.


:asian:

 

[Lisa]

Oh, Okay... I get it. If X(f)=Y(D2) and the present surface is (-1 DOL)....errr..or is it X(D2)=Y...no..no.. that wasn't it...ummmm.. well they are still pretty and I like them

 

[shesulsa]

I'm going to fail this class, I just know it, but I must say it is just too fascinating to drop!

 

[Ceicei]

I don't think MACaver is gonna test any of you on these formulas... at least I hope not!

- Ceicei

 

[MA-Caver]

I don't think MACaver is gonna test any of you on these formulas... at least I hope not!

- Ceicei

True I wouldn't make a test with THAT... but the rope stuff ... well lets just say the caves themselves will test you... heh heh...
Sigh, but it'll have to wait til someone gets caught up on their homework eh?

 

[MA-Caver]

Formation of the week: Flowstone (one of my favorites)
Flowstone is perhaps the most common of all cave deposits, and is almost always composed of calcite or other carbonate minerals. It forms in thin layers which initially take on the shape of the underlying floor or wall bedrock beneath, but tends to become rounded as it gets thicker. Flowstone masses are often fluted with draperies at their lower end, as in the bottom photos. Impurities in the calcite may give a variety of colors to flowstone, such as the red (likely due to iron).
Flowstone forms from actively flowing water (rather than water squeezed through cracks) in which carbon dioxide is lost and carbonate material is deposited. This is the basic mechanism forming stalagmites as well, and the two often form together.
*Personal note: I've seen flowstone in almost every *alpine* cave I've been in. Alpine being most caves that are above 5000 feet above sea-level. The formation becomes such a part of the cave environment that unless aware of them you can be walking, standing on it before you realize it. The stuff is like iron and can withstand a lot of traffic (boots, et al). Some flows I've seen are massive and others subtle and part of the cave floor. I also know of one cave where the stuff is a deep jade green in color.

Note on one of the photos, I edited it to black out the other formations above/around the area which shows what flowstone looks like.

 

[Flatlander]

So, on the top picture, then, does it mean that water used to flow down that channel? Do you usually find pools or streams in the places where you find these water formed things, or did it happen so long ago that the water is gone now? What things about the cave's history can you infer from these formations?

Fossils, MACaver. Got fossils?

 

[MA-Caver]

So, on the top picture, then, does it mean that water used to flow down that channel? Do you usually find pools or streams in the places where you find these water formed things, or did it happen so long ago that the water is gone now? What things about the cave's history can you infer from these formations?

Pretty much that's the way most flowstone formations happen. Water dripping from the ceiling hitting the floor which may (or may not) been a smooth surface and "flows downhill" leaving calcite deposits on the way.
From the size of the formations themselves we can infer that eons ago the area was saturated with lots of water. In Utah for example, now-a-days considered a desert state because of the relatively low annual rainfall compared to others, we can see from the caves and their formations that this wasn't so millions of years ago. A lake that covered over 250,000 sq miles called Bonneville sat where Utah, Nevada and Idaho are now. The Great Salt Lake sits where it used to be... and yes Lake Bonneville might have been an inland sea, tetonic plate movements over the millenia drained the lake and pushed up the bedrock beneath and so forth and so forth. Whether if the caves were already present at the time of the lake or created afterwards is unknown (at least to me anyway... I'm only an ameteur geologist). The climate back then is also revealed as well. Heavier rains/snows were present then than they are now. This climatic difference also attributes to the large and plentiful formations found in many of Utah Caves.

Do you usually find pools or streams in the places where you find these water formed things, or did it happen so long ago that the water is gone now?

There are sometimes pools of water to be found. They are sometimes captured by what we call rimstone dams (next week's formations). And inside those we can sometimes find yet another, seperate formation known as cave pearls.

Fossils, MACaver. Got fossils?

Well are you thinking Dinosaur/Jurassic Park type fossils or are you thinking of the fossils you find in Limestone which created the self-same rock? A hike along the trail to one of the caves here you can find fossils of shells, snails and so forth... they're tiny or small, but you can see them. I know of one cave that has a huge (two hand spans wide) shell fossil in it. And I have seen the skeletal remains of mammals in caves that are covered with a thin coat of flowstone, bats, rats, rabbits and one animal in particular that isn't positively identified because of the difficulty in getting to it and the fact that the remains are over 400 feet beneath the surface which requires extensive rope work to get down to. But this is the remains not exactly fossils which are generally classified as remains turned to stone.
I'm hoping to get a palentologist/caver down there some day to help ident the creature.
One cave along the Utah/Nevada border has human remains from ancient Native Americans buried there. It's strictly protected and access is reams of paperwork of permits and etc. Because of my vertical expertise I was allowed to join a group wanting to explore the cave and study the remains... read: I was a sherpa that knew how to rig stuff not because I was a palentologist or anthropologist. :idunno: mebbe I should've stayed in skool.


Next week

 

[Feisty Mouse]

I have to read in here more.

One of my favorite parts of Mammoth Caves was the flowstone. It's so beautiful.

 

[MA-Caver]

I'm planning to go back to one of my favorite caves as soon as NYFL season is totally over with :wink2: and take pictures. The cave has one of the largest flows in the entire west. I'll post here when I get them... it'll be a couple of weeks though.

 

[Flatlander]

I know of one cave that has a huge (two hand spans wide) shell fossil in it.

That's super cool. Fossils ROCK!

 

[Feisty Mouse]

That's super cool. Fossils ROCK!

DUDE! Fossils TOTALLY rock!

 

[MA-Caver]

Formation of the week: Rimstone Pools or Dams:
From one site:

Rimstone Pools are formed by water flowing down a slope. A very thin layer of water on a rather big area has a large surface. Because of the large surface the water looses carbondioxide (CO2) to the atmosphere of the cave and as a result calcite precipitates.
The flowing water has waves on its suface, caused by irregulities of the rock surface. Thin waves form the precipitated calcite into arcs or curves like the wind formes sand dunes. If there is a rim formed this way, the rim hold a pool of water.
Still calcite is precipitated and accumulates on the water surface. When a larger wave occures the whole calcite is transported to the rim. It is clear, that most of the calcite is deposited on top of the rim.
Rimstone pools can not only be found in caves. There are several famous pools all over the world. Such as Mammoth Hot Springs in Yellowstone National Park, USA.
But there is a big problen on the surface: growing plants (moss and leaves) disturb the calcite precipitation. So there are huge travertine deposits formed, but now pools. Lakes like in Plitvice are formed the same way but look very different.
Rimstone pools on the surface are always build by thermal spring waters. The temperatur of the water kills the moss and allows the undisturbed growth of the rims.
Sometimes the rims consist of calcite, but very often there are also several silicates (minerals consisting of SiO2).

My own personal experiences with this particular formation comes from repeat visits to some of my favorite caves. Sometimes you forget they're there because the water has dried up over the summer months only to be refilled by water dripping from the ceiling and condensation during a change in the weather.
This formation houses yet still another seperate formation known as cave pearls. Those will be the featured formation of the week next time and it will be the last formation as I wish to switch the focus of the thread to yet another aspect of caving... vertical.
For those still wanting to know a bit more about how these beautiful speleothems form and types try these links.
http://www.caves.org/pub/journal/PDF/V65/v65n2-Self.pdf
http://www.goodearthgraphics.com/virtcave.html

This is also my 1000th post. I am surprised that I've been here that long and done that many. True much of it was non-MA related (such as pictures and such) and other discussions... I still feel a part of this and a part of the MA community here. I have made some good friends here and (to my humbled surprise) even a small fan-base. I have to give credit to Ceicei who led me to this site, (ok, ok I was looking over her shoulder and asked "what's this site?"), but she still deserves the credit none-the-less. Big Hugs to her.
It's been fun being here and I look forward to more. I've learned quite a bit and am glad to teach in return what knowledge I have.
I am honored to know each of you and to call you friends. :asian:

 

[Sarah]

This is also my 1000th post. I

YAY RALPH....YOU ROCK!!!!!

 

[Lisa]

Ralph,

First off, congratulations on hitting 1000! That is truly awesome.

I personally would like to take this opportunity to thank you for all the time and effort you have taken to educate us less knowledgable people on caves and caving. I have enjoyed learning about them and the pictures are so incredibly amazing that my initial "I ain't getting on a thin rope" attitude has change dramatically to "where do I sign up!"

Keep it going please. Onward and Upward Ralph!....errrr... I mean Vertical!!!

 

[shesulsa]

Ralph, I already said it on the other thread, but since this one is all about you and your specialty, YOU SO TOTALLY ROCK!!

Thanks so much for being here on MT, for sharing your passions and for being who you are. I hope to meet you someday.

Sincerely,

Georgia

 

[MA-Caver]

Ralph,

First off, congratulations on hitting 1000! That is truly awesome.

I personally would like to take this opportunity to thank you for all the time and effort you have taken to educate us less knowledgable people on caves and caving. I have enjoyed learning about them and the pictures are so incredibly amazing that my initial "I ain't getting on a thin rope" attitude has change dramatically to "where do I sign up!"

Keep it going please. Onward and Upward Ralph!....errrr... I mean Vertical!!!

I'm not 100% sure how I'm gonna do the vertical section of this but it'll rock just as well with pics that'll either make you go whoo-hoo or OMG!
Actually as a caver... we'd prefer to go onward and DOWN-ward...heh heh :lol:
I'll have sign up info in a bit. Thanks for the enthusiasm.
With Vertical you'll see more of how Martial Arts training comes in handy.

Ralph, I already said it on the other thread, but since this one is all about you and your specialty, YOU SO TOTALLY ROCK!!

Thanks so much for being here on MT, for sharing your passions and for being who you are. I hope to meet you someday.

Sincerely,

Georgia

Aww... me two...wait a minnit... I've already met myself...
not a bad guy actually.
%think%
Umm, Hope to meet you too.. ya, that's what I meant.