Learning the truth about God

[morph4me]

This topic came up in another thread and it was suggest that it would be a good subject for this forum. You don't have to agree with a person, but please be respectful of other people's beliefs and keep the conversation civil.

First, I just want to say that I'm not a religious person, I think that religion serves a purpose in some peoples lives, but whatever that purpose is, I must be having my needs mets elsewhere, because it does nothing for me. That being said, I am really enjoying this exchange, the mutual respect even in disagreement is not the norm when talking about religion. I've had people come to my door and have had discussions about religion with them that have lasted for 45 minutes, others come and I just tell them I'm not interested, it really depends on their approach. I recently had a couple come to the door and tell me they wanted to teach me how to read the bible, I told them " No, you want to teach my how you interpret the bible, not interested" and closed the door. Over the years my ideas of God and the afterlife have chaned, at this point I believe that death is just another phase of life, like learning to walk, becoming an adult, etc. I belibe that my essence will leave my body and join with other energies in the universe and what happens after that, who knows. I have a difficult time with the concept of heaven or hell. I would like to ask a question about something that thardey said though, maybe it will help me understand something that I never really understood. Please understand I'm not trying to be argumentative or discount anyone's belief's and if I come across that way in future posts I apologize in advance, for me this is purely and intellectual exercise that may lead to other lines of thought.


Quote:
That's why I would rather learn the truth about God now, while I still know I have a choice of whether I want to be with him or not. I'm not guaranteed that choice after I die

How do you know you're learning the truth about God now? How do you know it's the truth and how are you going about it?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

How do you know you're learning the truth about God now? How do you know it's the truth and how are you going about it?

I don't know. I was born and raised Catholic, and after some amount of wandering and a smaller amount of experimenting, I have returned to the faith I was born into.

Is it the truth? I don't know. I like to think of it that way.

I do know this - even the scientists cannot tell us what existed before the 'big bang' singularity brought space and time into existence. Not one of them can tell us the reason for that singularity. Science postulates that everything has a cause, but it fails to even speculate at the first and most primary cause of all, the one that predicates all the others.

That does not mean that the first cause was a creator; but it does not mean that it wasn't, either. Without a system of reference, who can know?

I find strange parallels in the words "And the earth was without form and void and darkness was upon the face of the deep And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters," and the description of the Big Bang. Before space-time was exploded into being, there was only the Void, and without energy and mass, there was only darkness.

Anyway, it works for me. True? I don't know. Not really up to me, I guess. I believe, and if that's not the same thing, it works for me.

 

[thardey]

Quote:
Originally Posted by morph4me
How do you know you're learning the truth about God now? How do you know it's the truth and how are you going about it?

The "short" answer is that I test my beliefs in a similar way to Martial arts. I put them out to be examined by others. It's not so much that I will only believe if I can convince everyone, because that leads to a place where my beliefs are based on how many people agree with me, which isn't trustworthy.

But, if, in a respectful exchange, I lay my beliefs out for people of other faiths to examine and question, to probe and poke, they cause me to ask new questions, or reject superficial traditions (like Elder's input about "Hell" in the other thread.) The more I can do that, the more I can refine what I do believe, and strengthen my faith in those beliefs which "survive."

Actually, participating in this site is becoming a large part of my Spritual discipline. I bring up discussions that I've had here with my Bible Study group, and we examine them, and use them to ask difficult questions. Some of those who've been in church all their life are shocked by the questions that get asked. They've just never considered the Bible from that perspective. Also, connecting with you all helps keep me grounded in "real life" -- it's easy to get complacent when you're only around "church people" all the time, or people who already agree with you in general.

I warned on the other thread that if I go much further, it may get "preachy" which wasn't appropriate for the Study. But Morph and I agreed to continue that part of this conversation here. So, if what I say starts to sound like a sermon, please understand that I am just trying to be honest, and I say everything with the utmost respect for other people's beliefs.

Also, I will discuss things as far as my personal beliefs, so I won't be arguing for a "Christian" group, or as representing some denomination, what I believe is what I believe -- I won't project that on others, nor will I defend them here. Sometimes I've defended "The Bible" or "Church" or whatever. Here I will be defending my personal beliefs. Some of what I say is widely accepted, some is not.
-Now, that I've got the disclaimers covered, here is my personal answer to your question.

How do you know you're learning the truth about God now? How do you know it's the truth and how are you going about it?

From the beginning, I will admit that there is a lot about God I don't know. "Knowing Truth" is a hard thing to explain to others, and mostly impossible to convince others. I know what has happened to me, but I don't absolutely know that I've interpreted it correctly. The few things I will claim to "KNOW" as in unquestionable, are very few, and very personal. Things like I "KNOW" my wife loves me. It's hard to prove, but it's not something I will argue.

For most of the time, though, when I say I "Know" something, I'm using it in the sense of a "reasonably sure belief."

Also, I'm not a purely rationalist, or a purely fiedest (faith is enough), but I haven't chosen a "test for truth." All I've figured out so far is a negative test -- that if something flat-out contraticts itself, then one of those two truths must be wrong. Beyond that, I don't have a positive test to offer. That is, I will be open to things existing that will never be proven. It doesn't mean I will put faith in it, but I won't reject it, either.

That said, to be honest, I want to believe. I want to believe that there is a personal being out there, who knows who I am, and loves me like I love my wife. A powerful being, who is not limited by the things I am, but is only limited by his nature. (At this point I should mention that I believe that God is both male and female, and neither, but it is hard for me to refer to God as "It", so I fall back on the widely used liguistic system of using the masculine for a neutral.) I want to believe that this person wants to be with me, not for pity's sake, but because that's what my purpose is.

I want to believe that the things I don't like about myself are not permanently bound to me, but that God wants to help me be rid of those weaknesses, and help me develop my full potential. That I am in the "Image of God" and that will be able to continue to develop that through eternity.

I also want to believe that I am not the only person for whom this is true. That everybody has this "divine" within them, and the secret for developing it is to train with the master who planted that spark within us. Like martial arts, it is dangerous to try to figure it out on your own, but it is wise to learn it from the source.

Those desires are strong, and it will take a lot to prove them wrong. They will change, and that is good. But the more I put them out there to be tested, the desire for that truth grows, and in fact that desire fits with what I have seen of God. That in fact, the secret to knowing him, is to desire to know him, and he will reveal himself in ways that are personal to me.

 

[Empty Hands]

How do you know you're learning the truth about God now? How do you know it's the truth and how are you going about it?

I submit that you can't know. That's the nature of faith, after all. God is a hypothesis with no means of external verification and testing. You can have all the religious epiphanies and experiences you like, all the prayer and conviction and numinous feelings. At the end though, that's all it is - unsubstantiated feelings. There is no way to tell if you are right. Tellingly, there are millions of other people going through the same process that come up with diametrically opposed opinions. What makes either one right?

People also come to firm mental convictions about other phenomena we know weren't real. Why do we privilege the thoughts on God then? There is no reason to do so. Atheism is the only rational response.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Atheism is the only rational response.

Beg pardon, but wouldn't agnosticism be the only rational response, based on your statements? Atheism is an affirmation that there is no God, which in itself is a belief without proof either. Agnosticism is an acknowledgment of lack of knowledge.

 

[thardey]

Beg pardon, but wouldn't agnosticism be the only rational response, based on your statements? Atheism is an affirmation that there is no God, which in itself is a belief without proof either. Agnosticism is an acknowledgment of lack of knowledge.

Depends on whether you're talking about "Hard" or "soft" Athiesm. There are many who are "Soft" Athiest, precisely because they're agnostic.

 

[thardey]

I submit that you can't know. That's the nature of faith, after all. God is a hypothesis with no means of external verification and testing. You can have all the religious epiphanies and experiences you like, all the prayer and conviction and numinous feelings. At the end though, that's all it is - unsubstantiated feelings. There is no way to tell if you are right. Tellingly, there are millions of other people going through the same process that come up with diametrically opposed opinions. What makes either one right?

People also come to firm mental convictions about other phenomena we know weren't real. Why do we privilege the thoughts on God then? There is no reason to do so. Atheism is the only rational response.

True, "Soft" Atheism is the product of purely rational thought.

However, I am not a rationalist, as I mentioned above.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Depends on whether you're talking about "Hard" or "soft" Athiesm. There are many who are "Soft" Athiest, precisely because they're agnostic.

I see! So when atheists get together, do they fight over who's non-belief is true? Hehehehe....

 

[Empty Hands]

Atheism is an affirmation that there is no God, which in itself is a belief without proof either. Agnosticism is an acknowledgment of lack of knowledge.

No, Atheism is a lack of belief. Agnosticism is a lack of knowledge. At one point, I was an agnostic theist. I had the belief, but couldn't say for sure that it was real. Now I am an agnostic atheist. I don't have the belief, but still can't say for sure.

 

[morph4me]

I would have to classify myself as an agnostic, I find it hard to believe that there is an omnipotent and omniccient entity in the universe that cares any more about me than I do about an insect, yet when I do go to services I watch people there, and I know that they are getting something out of their faith, they are getting something out of being there, the only thing I get is the chance to nap occasionally. I've wondered in the past, and still do ocassionally, if I'm missing something, if there is something lacking within me that just isn't seeing the big picture, but I've come to believe that whatever those people arge "getting" I'm "getting" from something else in my life although I can't say for sure what or where.

 

[Empty Hands]

I've wondered in the past, and still do ocassionally, if I'm missing something, if there is something lacking within me that just isn't seeing the big picture, but I've come to believe that whatever those people arge "getting" I'm "getting" from something else in my life although I can't say for sure what or where.

Neuroscience studies have shown that we are hardwired with a propensity for religiosity. Not any particular religion mind you, but the mindset and outlook that goes with it. Religiosity has been correlated with certain genes and brain structures, and feelings of numinosity or religious awe can be induced experimentally by stimulating certain points of the brain.

Thinking back, I've never had a belief or desire to believe in God. Even as a kid I described myself as "agnostic." It just didn't seem that important either way. I find little difficulty believing then that religious belief has a hardwired component which I lack.

 

[Nolerama]

Right now, I consider myself a C-E Catholic: A Catholic only around Christmas and Easter.

To me, it brings up the idea that religion, no matter what flavor, is basically this:

1. A social structure/organization.
2. A way to control people.

From my POV, in terms of social structure, I really get it. My more religious relatives have their lives wrapped up in Catholicism and make deep, lasting friendships based on their common understanding of religion. It maintains a community. On my end of the spectrum, I see people in church during the holidays that I only ever get to see once or twice a year; to me that's a great thing... They're good people, I just don't share their passion for organized religion.

In terms of ways to control people, religion is a monster that is both benevolent and evil; active and reactive. On a very superficial level, American consumerism is at least partially dictated by religion. Companies use religious holidays to get people to buy, buy, buy. Religion provides a set of rules to live by; and while most religions offer a wonderful basic moral code, it can and does hinder those who would want to live a different life outside of their base religion.

I would also like to add that religion, outside of its more common perception that there has to be holy script, a house of worship, and a heavenly messenger, can be more than just one "faith" but can also fall under "activity."

How many people are out there just to experience the social benefits of religion? There are plenty.

Do those same people find "spiritual experience" elsewhere? I'm sure they do. Just not in the conventional sense. Some people see God when they see the Grand Canyon. Others have a spiritual experience when their first child is born. Others get one whenever they have a good yoga workout. Contented bliss (at least momentary) in one's life can be found everywhere.

Moreover, lots of people find solace in nit-picking the different terms of religion and religious effectiveness, as stated by Mr. Mattock's previous post; at least in some way. It's no different than one Christian sect saying they're more Godly than another Christian sect. You can interchange "Christian" with any other religion.

Is there a point in the grand scheme of things, other than appeasing one's vocabulary? Not really.

 

[thardey]

Neuroscience studies have shown that we are hardwired with a propensity for religiosity. Not any particular religion mind you, but the mindset and outlook that goes with it. Religiosity has been correlated with certain genes and brain structures, and feelings of numinosity or religious awe can be induced experimentally by stimulating certain points of the brain.

Thinking back, I've never had a belief or desire to believe in God. Even as a kid I described myself as "agnostic." It just didn't seem that important either way. I find little difficulty believing then that religious belief has a hardwired component which I lack.

Very good point, and it goes along with what I was saying. I have felt "close" to God since I was a kid. As long as I remember. That's not something you can "turn on" in someone else.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

No, Atheism is a lack of belief. Agnosticism is a lack of knowledge. At one point, I was an agnostic theist. I had the belief, but couldn't say for sure that it was real. Now I am an agnostic atheist. I don't have the belief, but still can't say for sure.

Thanks for the correction! I have a good friend who says he is a "Jehovah's Bystander." He's pretty sure something happened, but he doesn't want to get involved.

 

[morph4me]

I grew up catholic, when I was a kid I wanted to become a priest and was very religious, as got older I started asking questions that I wasn't getting satisfactory answers to. About 18 years ago I converted to Judaism, it was a practical decision and Judaism was more to my taste, I could get answers to all my questions, and whether or not I agreed with the answers, I was able to get reasons for things we did, but I changed from being a religious person to an agnostic. I guess it just took me longer to overcome or figure out my programming :idunno:

 

[thardey]

I grew up catholic, when I was a kid I wanted to become a priest and was very religious, as got older I started asking questions that I wasn't getting satisfactory answers to. About 18 years ago I converted to Judaism, it was a practical decision and Judaism was more to my taste, I could get answers to all my questions, and whether or not I agreed with the answers, I was able to get reasons for things we did, but I changed from being a religious person to an agnostic. I guess it just took me longer to overcome or figure out my programming :idunno:

Or it could be waiting for the right "stimulus" to kick it on again. I talked to one lady once in Italy (we were on the same tour) who said she was never religious, but one day she went into a cathedral in Mexico, and was overcome by a "religious experience." While in Italy she was going from cathedral to cathedral to try and recreate that feeling, but it wasn't working. After talking for a bit, I suggested that the cathedral experience was just to "wake her up" to something bigger.

She realized that in reality, her "religious" understanding was strongly related to her husband, and that she hopes that God loves her like her husband does. I encouraged her to continue to pursue that relationship in light of her "awakening." The lights came on, and she realized that was really where she "knew" God, through the example of her husband. The "ongoing" religious experience was relational, but it took the stimulus of a "Holy place" to kick it on for her.

For my wife, it's scuba diving, for me, it's different things: Martial arts, scuba, motorcycles. I don't go to church to "meet God" I go to church to serve him. I "meet" him at other times.

 

[morph4me]

Can you explain what it is you feel when you're serving God at church? Is it serenity? euphoria? something else? Do you have to be in church to serve God? I've been trying to find out for years and nobody has ever been able to explain it to me. As I said, I find it hard to believe that there is an omnipotent and omniscient entity in the universe that cares any more about me than I do about an insect. On the other hand I find it equally difficult to believe that we are all here because of some cosmic accident and random genetic mutations. My truth and yours is obviously different and I'm wondering if I'm missing something or if I'm on the right track. It's good to re-examine one's beliefs every once in a while.

 

[girlbug2]

ETA: sorry, I double posted by accident, see my post below

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Can you explain what it is you feel when you're serving God at church? Is it serenity? euphoria? something else? Do you have to be in church to serve God? I've been trying to find out for years and nobody has ever been able to explain it to me.

I can't explain it, would not know how to begin. I don't feel anything special in church, really, most of the time. But I figure I'm not there to serve God, just to offer thanks and praise. If I feel anything, it's when I see a guy on the corner, head down, holding a sign, and I give him whatever I have on me, because He said "What you do the least of my brothers, you do to me." Also because I am not good, not kind, not decent, and a miserable failure as a human being; but Saved by Grace anyway, and that makes me feel a little better about myself.

 

[girlbug2]

Hmmmm, it's difficult to pinpoint exactly how one can "know" the answers to your two questions. I'm not of the opinion it's 100% head knowledge, it really comes from the heart first and then to the head for confirmation. I have my doubts that anybody was ever converted to my faith because somebody came along and shared the perfect rational argument with them. As a christian, I can not argue anybody into the kingdom of heaven and they can't argue me out of it. All I can do is present what I "know" and pray that it takes.

"For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation" Romans 10:10

I am the most pathetic of sinners btw; I never think anybody would see me as an example of a "good christian", and think to themselves, " I want to be just like HER!", so it's hard to share my faith because all I see are my own shortcomings. But it's not all about me, thankfully! Jesus was the most beautiful, wonderful individual who ever lived; it makes perfect rational sense that once knowledge of His existence is implanted in the heart, a person would naturally want to learn as much as possible about Him and know Him more every day. That's where bible study comes into it, and everything I've learned is a resounding affirmation of that initial knowledge.

Weird to think that the God of the universe wants to know me and fellowship with me also; weird and wonderful!