The Premise: God is evil

[MartialArtHeart]

Okay, let's work on the premise that you believe in God(according to the Judeo-Christian view). In other words, if you don't, pretend you do for just a moment.

I want to hear your opinion on whether an existent God is able but unwilling to help mankind(evil), or willing but unable(not omnipotent). And on the view that he is willing and able to stop the suffering, let us still assume that he exists and give me your point of view as to why he has not stopped the suffering in his creation yet.

My view is undecided. I have read up quite a bit on the subject, and even had some classes. And I have found enough proof to convince me that God exists(this is for another thread. Not the time) But it would seem to me that God could stop the suffering if he wanted to, which apparently he does. Now I've heard a lot on the argument of free will. God wants us to make our own choice to love him.

But then why allow hell to exist? Why create something broken, and not fix it? Why allow your creation to suffer? For your joy? Are you that narcissistic?

I am not trying to demean anyone's faith... quite the contrary. I embrace people of all beliefs. But I'm just curious as to your view on this... I've seen so many people that I love suffer... and it just makes me wonder.

 

[CoryKS]

I don't know if I agree with the statement that 'able to help but unwilling' = evil.

 

[Kacey]

Okay, let's work on the premise that you believe in God(according to the Judeo-Christian view). In other words, if you don't, pretend you do for just a moment.

Hmm... could be a stretch... Reform Judaism doesn't really promote a certain view of God once you get past the monotheistic part, and my personal interpretation of God is not humanistic... but I think your questions still apply, mostly.

I want to hear your opinion on whether an existent God is able but unwilling to help mankind(evil), or willing but unable(not omnipotent). And on the view that he is willing and able to stop the suffering, let us still assume that he exists and give me your point of view as to why he has not stopped the suffering in his creation yet.

I don't see this as evil. Simply because you can prevent an event does not make you evil. There are many cases where I, as a school teacher, could do things for my students that I require them to do for themselves - and they all get mad at me and call me mean because I won't do it for them, or provide help past a certain point, so they learn how to do it themselves. A simplistic example, perhaps... but sometimes the best way to help someone is to force them to do it alone - no matter how mean it appears to be at the time. If God were to stop our suffering, as you put it, what would that take? Would people be able to grow if there was no negative effect to not learning/growing/changing? If there were no negative consequences to avoid, why avoid anything? At best, at that point, we would, IMHO, remain spoiled rotten little brats all our lives... and even those who didn't would have no reinforcement to rise above that.

My view is undecided. I have read up quite a bit on the subject, and even had some classes. And I have found enough proof to convince me that God exists(this is for another thread. Not the time) But it would seem to me that God could stop the suffering if he wanted to, which apparently he does. Now I've heard a lot on the argument of free will. God wants us to make our own choice to love him.

See above

But then why allow hell to exist?

A man's reach should exceed his grasp; else what's a heaven for? - Robert Browning, In Philosophy



Okay, it's an old, overused quote - but if there's nothing to strive for - or against - then what motivation do you have? Sometimes avoiding a negative consequence is a greater motivation that working toward a positive consequence.

Why create something broken, and not fix it?

I don't see the current system as broken; I see it as a synergistic feedback loop that is eternally seeking equilibrium.

Why allow your creation to suffer? For your joy? Are you that narcissistic?

Again, see above. If one accepts the traditional Judeo-Christian personification of God, then this implies a system created to allow an imperfect creation - humanity - to rise above its imperfect creation and become more like God, by forcing that creation to earn it's way up the scale.

 

[theletch1]

I don't know if I agree with the statement that 'able to help but unwilling' = evil.

Very true. There have been members of my family that have come (repeatedly) asking for financial help with basic bills. They are the ones that blow the vast majority of their money on things like eating out every night, video games...anything but the bills. I've been able to help but unwilling to do so as this would not help them learn to be more responsible with the finances. Does this make me evil? No. Just someone who believes that having the free will to spend your money on what you want also brings the responsibility of budgeting.

 

[MA-Caver]

Having the power to intervene and not doing so isn't evil. Taking away the choice to do something is. God, (as I believe Him) allows us to utilize His greatest gift to us... Free Will. His counter-part (Satan) doesn't want us to have free will. Satan wants us to do what HE wants us to do and not let us decide for ourselves. What he wants us to do is to disobey God like he has done.
We have a choice to stop a fellow human being from harming others. We have a choice to let them continue. God, being our final judge will wait to see what we do with our lives and how we treat others. As everyone must (eventually) die they will face that judgement and be judged accordingly to their acts and faith. If we choose not to believe in God that is our choice. We cannot judge the creator unless we are just like them.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

Very true. There have been members of my family that have come (repeatedly) asking for financial help with basic bills. They are the ones that blow the vast majority of their money on things like eating out every night, video games...anything but the bills. I've been able to help but unwilling to do so as this would not help them learn to be more responsible with the finances. Does this make me evil? No. Just someone who believes that having the free will to spend your money on what you want also brings the responsibility of budgeting.

Beat me to it and well said.

God wants to make us happy, not give us pleasure. It's our job as humans to grow from the difficulties and challenges of our existence (much like we do as martial artists on the deck). To reach out and cure all trouble robs us of the chance to grow and become like God.

The thesis is short-sighted.

 

[tellner]

"If G-d is G-d He is not good. If G-d is good He is not G-d" and the writings of Democritus, Epicurus and Hume. Or as The Black Adder said "Like private parts to the wanton gods are we. They play with us for their sport." Neither the question nor the conclusions are new.

I predict that they people who respond to this will put it down to ineffability, free will, the nonexistence of the gods or their malevolence and indifference. There will probably be one or two who will bring up rewards in the afterlife and the question of infinite reward or punishment for finite crimes.

 

[Empty Hands]

Simply because you can prevent an event does not make you evil. There are many cases where I, as a school teacher, could do things for my students that I require them to do for themselves - and they all get mad at me and call me mean because I won't do it for them, or provide help past a certain point, so they learn how to do it themselves. ...Would people be able to grow if there was no negative effect to not learning/growing/changing?

Very true. There have been members of my family that have come (repeatedly) asking for financial help with basic bills.

There is an enormous difference between the types of situations you both outline and the type of random, senseless, painful suffering that goes on in the world on a daily basis. How does a five year old grow and develop from the experience of dying from leukemia while the other kids get to grow up and experience life? If dying young is such a wonderful growing experience, then why doesn't God in his infinite wisdom make everyone die young? How do you grow and develop from a split second death in a car crash you never saw coming? If negative experiences in life are God's way of teaching us something, then why do they happen in a way that makes it impossible for you to learn?

The response I often see to these scenarios is that the suffering is for the benefit and growth of those around them. That the parents of the 5 year old that die of leukemia, for instance, will develop from the experience. In most theories of morality, and certainly the religious ones, this is not moral reasoning. It is not permissible to make others suffer for your own benefit. So why does God get to do so? This brings us back to Socrates' famous critique of divine command morality - is it right because the gods say it is (arbitrariness), or do the gods say it is because it is right (morality greater than god(s)- this implies our God is evil).

Certainly, if all God wanted to do was teach us something then he could make his lessons a little less capricious and fatal.

 

[Ninjamom]

I have to question your point and purpose in asking these questions on a martial arts forum at all. If you are sincere in seeking an answer, why not ask in a theology forum, dedicated precisely to the Judeo-Christian worldview about which you are inquiring? Do you really want to know? If I answer, will you take it to heart and change your belief? I will be discreet, honest, and forthright in my answers, if you are willing to do the same with your questions.

....God(according to the Judeo-Christian view)......
>
I want to hear your opinion on whether an existent God is able but unwilling to help mankind(evil), or willing but unable(not omnipotent).

The question is framed so as to dictate an expected answer. I take exception to the question itself.

Take a step back - what makes you think that God (the Judeo-Christian one) is not actively helping mankind? Why are you phrasing it as 'all or nothing'? Isn't it possible that God is actively helping mankind and working towards his greater good, just not in the way 'you would do it if you were God'? (or perhaps, not the way you would assume God should act, based on our limited perspective of time and history?) Is all suffering necessarily 'bad' or 'evil'? What about 'discomfort' or 'hardship'? Are they included in your definition of suffering? OR, to state it another way, if everything you consider to be suffering were suddenly completely eliminated from planet earth (starvation, disease, warfare), would you later raise the same question about minor inconveniences and discomforts (traffic jams, muscle soreness after a hard workout, headache from watching too many video games)?

Doesn't pain serve a valid purpose, necessary in a temporal world (warning of danger, telling you to stay away from the hot stove, teaching by experience)?

What about suffering and its impact on character? We honor and admire those who sacrifice their personal well-being or their desires in order to help someone else But can there be such a thing as sacrificial giving, if there is no such thing as a real possibility of loss or sacrifice? We also honor character traits like loyalty, courage, persistence, patience, and perseverance. Would any of these traits have any real meaning, if there were not also such a thing as the possibility of betrayal, or real fear with the possibility of danger/loss, or real hardship, difficulty, or obstacles to overcome?

And on the view that he is willing and able to stop the suffering, let us still assume that he exists and give me your point of view as to why he has not stopped the suffering in his creation yet.

I believe that God, who is sovereign, has allowed people self-autonomy: i.e., they can make real choices that have real consequences, for both themselves and others. I can make a choice that will benefit you. I can make a choice that will harm you. You might admire me if I make choices for your benefit, even at my harm. You would be right to vilify me if I make choices to benefit me, at the cost of your harm. Still, we see such choices made all the time around the world, with corruption, guilt/greed accounting for more human suffering than all the fires, floods, and famines in recorded history, combined.

God is just in punishing all evil, including the evil (bad choices) that I freely embrace. He could end it all in a millisecond, and stamp out all evil in an instant. The problem is, that if God instantly judged all evil, I would be lost in that hailstorm of judgment, too. All my 'good intentions' and hopes for the future can't 'undo' a single evil action or bad choice that I have already made. I can't make someone else 'unsuffer'.

By allowing me time, God offers me (and you) the chance to repent, turn from evil, and use the resources He has given (time, energy, effort, that 'second chance') for the benefit of others.

There have been many times when I have been wronged, hurt, injured, or made to suffer through someone else's unjust choice and action. God would be just and right in ending their evil and stamping them out in an instant, too. But by giving more time, He allows them the opportunity to repent/turn/change, AND He allows me the opportunity to share in His character, by choosing forgiveness, reconciliation, and the opportunity for redemption.

Speaking of redemption, who but a sovereign God could take our worst choices and most vile evil, and turn it into something beautiful in the end? And for that matter, while on the subject of redemption, only a God actively involved in the every-day events on Earth and caring about the smallest details of the human condition would even offer redemption in the first place, let alone making such a graphic demonstration of it, as to offer Himself in our place on a Roman cross in full payment of justice's demands.

Yes, God is all-powerful. Yes, He is all good, and tends to the smallest detail of human existence. Yes, He has given mankind the gift of a free moral will. Each individual's choices affect others' well-being, for better and for worse. Yes, He allows the situation to continue, for the good of all His creation, and He bounds it all with this marvelous creation we call 'time', so that any suffering caused you by another person will always be limited in its scope and duration.

I don't believe God made a broken world, but I do believe the world 'fell' (I'm sure you've come across that in your reading). Still, God in Jesus Christ is the One who has taken it upon Himself to fix it.

Please let me know how open you are to some links to insights from those far more knowledgeable than I.

 

[MartialArtHeart]

Empty hands, thank you for clarifying what I meant. I did not mean suffering that builds us up, or teaches us. I mean the pointless suffering that does no one any good. I have no objection to the inconveniences and suffering that makes us stronger or that we bring upon ourselves. Although I suppose by nature that this would allow the other type of suffering also.

I have to question your point and purpose in asking these questions on a martial arts forum at all. If you are sincere in seeking an answer, why not ask in a theology forum, dedicated precisely to the Judeo-Christian worldview about which you are inquiring? Do you really want to know? If I answer, will you take it to heart and change your belief? I will be discreet, honest, and forthright in my answers, if you are willing to do the same with your questions.

The question is framed so as to dictate an expected answer. I take exception to the question itself.

I ask in this forum because it is dedicated to spirituality. And I ask all of you because I find myself more interested in the opinions of fellow martial artists than hardcore bible-beaters, etc.
And I did NOT mean to make it a loaded question. I was simply providing context so people knew the direction in which I wished the thread to go.


Also, I am completely open to your opinions. If I were not, and I wished to push my opinions on you... I wouldn't have bothered posting this.

I simply am not sure... that's all. And as I've said, I don't object to suffering that improves. What I mean is that God could improve us... he could have made us stronger...

And I still don't think that he should send his creation to eternal torment... even if it is an incentive. Because think of all the people who were raised not to believe in him... can they truly help the way they were raised? Is some revelation supposed to occur to them?


And I should have said before... keep it polite. I have no wish to argue. And I have no wish to read a heated post... they tend to make me a bit sad. Please, be nice and considerate.

 

[MartialArtHeart]

P.S. Ninjamom. I mean no disrespect, but my question provided all possibilities for an existent God. You highlighted only part of my question, and thus made it look loaded.

 

[tellner]

Point of order here...

"Judeo-Christian" is a ridiculous and intellectually dishonest construction used only by Christians. No observant or even educated Jew would use it. The Jewish conception of G-d, this world and the next, sin, redemption, Divine Justice and many other things are absolutely incompatible with the Pauline Christian ones.

If you mean "Christian" say "Christian". If you mean "Jewish" say "Jewish". If you mean "Christian for sure, and Jewish if I knew anything about Judaism besides that they wear funny hats" say "Christian". Please.

 

[Kacey]

There is an enormous difference between the types of situations you both outline and the type of random, senseless, painful suffering that goes on in the world on a daily basis. How does a five year old grow and develop from the experience of dying from leukemia while the other kids get to grow up and experience life? If dying young is such a wonderful growing experience, then why doesn't God in his infinite wisdom make everyone die young? How do you grow and develop from a split second death in a car crash you never saw coming? If negative experiences in life are God's way of teaching us something, then why do they happen in a way that makes it impossible for you to learn?

Possibly... but then, I am not omnipotent, omniscient, or in any other way Godlike - nor would I like to be. Also, your statement seems to imply that lessons can only be learned by the person to whom the negative event occurs.

I don't deny that bad, senseless things happen - and I can't explain them. But I will say, speaking for myself, that my personal interpretation of God is a lot closer to a nontheistic force behind and within life than to the personification seen in many religions. I don't, generally, ascribe motive of any type to God. I believe that there is something more, some reason to strive to better ourselves... but what that is I cannot say.

I believe that there is more to life than avoiding negative entropy. If all we are is chemical processes attempting to organize chaos - so be it. If not, if there's something more to strive for - or even if there's not - I still try to be the best I can be, not because of fear of hell or hope of heaven, but because I believe that is right. There are things I cannot change, for myself or others - that's the way existence is, at the moment.

In the meantime, saying that non-interference by an omnipotent, omniscient, supposedly loving and yet uncaring God is evil is ascribing human motives to an entity that is, by definition, non-human, in a way that is, again by definition, unknowable. I stick with doing what I can for those around me, instead of bemoaning the things I cannot change.

 

[kaizasosei]

hello,

i can really appreciate all the opinions in this thread...very deep and difficult subjects. funny thing is that my dad actually often says things like...if there is a god, he must be an evil god.
his reasons for saying this are such: he thinks it is unfair for god to create humans without actively guiding them and teaching them if not simply showing himself/herself/itself in a way that would confirm existance in the first place. also, my dad comments on how grotesque nature can be like when as a child he witnessed a cat tearing up a mouse and seemed to see it as 'not good'...-sometimes, he also says that in there is a hell, it is here on earth.

in all my study of spirituality, i have been able to counter each of these opinions. basically, i believe the spirit is indestructable, so the act of suffering is often accompanied with much illusions, and suffering itself could be seen as an illusion. as i see it, when an animal kills and eats another animal(especially raw)-i see it as the animal that is eaten is becoming part of the predator. therefore, the eaten animal is life for the eater, and that is something beautiful...animal suffering is not the same as human suffering i think often our sufferings are more mental and associated with ideas of hatred,jealousy, pain and loss-even filth. of course i do think that animal and man are essentialy same, but animals i think do not always see things as fatalistically as we do... watching a baby chicken getting slowly(and surprisingly gently) devoured by a python, i could swear the chicken at some point simply gave up with a look in his eye like a kid losing a videogame. ofcourse, the chicken will be crushed at some point once inside the python.-
whatever, it is not evil. it is completely natural. the evil often comes when we project our own weakness and suffering into something unrelated.

with all the intelligence invested in man, you'd think it would be simple to understand god or the universe, creation. i guess, if someone allows themselves to be fooled by illusions, it's their problem and why should god always actively interfere. i myself was such a fool for a while. but i am glad that i have come to see the divinity in all of creation and then also managed to see how man fits into this plan...because mankind often wants to believe it is not part of creation or is something better than everything else. that is a misleading idea based on selfglorification of nothing. how can there be any glory without a name. so if you really are so awesome, who are you?
so maybe it is not god or the devil as separate entities that are influencing the hearts of men, but it is us, we are the ones that are blessing evileyeing and cursing each other most the time. so god and the devil are only giving people the means to achieve their goals. but they don't directly tell people what to do because then people could not be responsible. the cool thing about responsibility is that it requires true freedom restricted by nothing other than ones own heart.
it is like giving a gift to someone. you know that the gift is from you and that makes it even more special.
perhaps all beings are equally a part of god.
god is like us but even smarter, we are like god and sometimes we'd like to think we are more powerful-yet the sun could easily fry us and the coldness of outerspace could easily turn us into cosmic icecubes.
no man is strong. only the ocean is strong. only the earthquake and the storm are strong. the rocks and even some trees make men seem like dwarfs.


there is a saying;
God sleeps in the stones, breathes in the plants, dreams in the animals and wakes up in man.

as above so below....

j

 

[MartialArtHeart]

Tellner... you know what I mean, correct? Taking offense does nothing to improve anyone, nor does it comply with my asking for polite conversation... alas, I knew deep down that we could not have a civilized discussion. Not when it comes to religion.

Alas, the naivety in me prevails.

 

[Empty Hands]

Also, your statement seems to imply that lessons can only be learned by the person to whom the negative event occurs.

I addressed this argument in my subsequent paragraph. Briefly, causing someone to suffer for someone else to learn is immoral and points to either an arbitrary or an evil God, if a God as we have been discussing exists.

But I will say, speaking for myself, that my personal interpretation of God is a lot closer to a nontheistic force behind and within life than to the personification seen in many religions. I don't, generally, ascribe motive of any type to God. I believe that there is something more, some reason to strive to better ourselves... but what that is I cannot say.

Your beliefs may indeed be compatible with a non-evil omnipotent God and suffering in this world, but I would say that your beliefs are not typical for most theists. Such a belief would call into question whether such a force could be called a God at all. Also, your beliefs would seem to be at odds with your statements about suffering being for learning lessons for our own good.

I believe that there is more to life than avoiding negative entropy.

As conscious beings, I believe life has whatever meaning we ascribe to it.

In the meantime, saying that non-interference by an omnipotent, omniscient, supposedly loving and yet uncaring God is evil is ascribing human motives to an entity that is, by definition, non-human, in a way that is, again by definition, unknowable.

Then why should we pay this God any attention at all? Why do we turn to this God for moral advice, for instruction on the meaning of the universe, and how to be Good? If we can't decide this unknowable force is evil for its actions or non-actions, then how the heck do we get to decide that it is all loving and Good?

I stick with doing what I can for those around me, instead of bemoaning the things I cannot change.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. Are you implying that anyone having this debate is a useless moaner?

 

[bushidomartialarts]

Point of order here...

"Judeo-Christian" is a ridiculous and intellectually dishonest construction used only by Christians. No observant or even educated Jew would use it. The Jewish conception of G-d, this world and the next, sin, redemption, Divine Justice and many other things are absolutely incompatible with the Pauline Christian ones.

If you mean "Christian" say "Christian". If you mean "Jewish" say "Jewish". If you mean "Christian for sure, and Jewish if I knew anything about Judaism besides that they wear funny hats" say "Christian". Please.

"Judeo-Christian" is a part of the common argot, and aptly identifies what MAHeart was trying to get across -- even if it is incorrect on many levels.

We all know how well-educated you are, quit pickin on the new guy. :mst:

 

[Empty Hands]

watching a baby chicken getting slowly(and surprisingly gently) devoured by a python, i could swear the chicken at some point simply gave up with a look in his eye like a kid losing a videogame.

That was the point where the chicken died. Pythons don't generally eat their prey alive - they are called constrictors for a reason.

 

[Kacey]

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. Are you implying that anyone having this debate is a useless moaner?

This debate? No - I find most of this debate to be quite interesting and enlightening.

The title of this thread is "God is Evil". My personal perspective of God precludes good and evil as applicable concepts, which makes answering most of the questions difficult, at best, and from that perspective I also don't see any reason to sit around and blame God for things, either, or ascribe motivations of good and evil, because I don't think they apply to God in the sense most people mean them... and some of my points were, I realize, not in accord with each other - because I was trying to answer questions that cannot really be addressed from my personal perspective, as I find them to be mostly meaningless in the context of my everyday life.

As far as my opinions... well... this is a subject I give a great deal of thought to, and while I know what I mean, it's hard for me to put it into writing in any concise form.

 

[kaizasosei]

no actually, i am quite certain the chick was still chirping and i think got crushed about 1/4 into the snake or more. while being devoured the chick looked really calm...whatever, see for yourself, i saw it at a friends place -pretty sure it was a youtube...i dunno, maybe captive snakes have the luxury of not worrying about the prey escaping for too long.
i really had the feeling the snake was actively trying not to hurt the chick.
maybe i should check it out again myself, but i can see this happening and i still remember how the chick did not look like it was in pain. only once it entered the darkness of the snake where it started chirping in a more alarmed way...maybe the snake does so to keep the prey more calm..
i read that each time that one exhales, the snake tightens the grip...however, this was a big snake and a small chick so most was done with the mouth.

this doesn't prove that snakes have feelings like us, but undoubtedly, the relationship of prey and predator is very intimate.

j