OP
rmcrobertson
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #61
Uh...I thought we were discussing these OTHER videos?
Ok I'll go watch a few and get back to you.
OP
Kenpo Yahoo
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #63
Well Robert,
I guess I'm a little curious what YOU think about the other videos.
I guess I'm a little curious what YOU think about the other videos.
OP
Kenpo Yahoo
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #64
Rather than wait for your reply I thought I might go ahead and comment on statements you made in earlier posts.
I'm not sure what you meant by this, or for that matter what clip(s) you are specifically referring to. I do know that all the guys demonstrating specific techniques can move very fast and hit very hard.
John Connolly (5th) was teaching colored belts how to add a little bit of timing into Five Swords, which at the lower colored belt levels requires explanation of raw upper body mechanics. He backed away from his demonstration partner a couple of times so that the group of students could get a better look at the upper body movement. Also, he used open hands so that the students could see his movements better. Later on they covered some of the tear dropping for power, but you don't get to see this. This was about a 30 second look at an hour long seminar.
Derek Ence(7th) and Randall Miller(6th or 7th) were kind enough to demonstrate the technique Circling destruction, as done by the AKKI. The FOCUS here was more on showing you the sequence rather than blistering speed or outrageous power. I don't get it!!! The AKKI usually gets ragged for moving to fast but when we slow down to show you what we are actually doing we get criticized for not hitting with power. SPEED IS POWER, when properly controlled. Oh well.
Josh Lannon (4th) was demonstrating the opening portion of the new brown belt technique Slipping Fans, which is one of my favorites. It's simple, fast, and effective, but again the clip shows approx. 30 seconds of a 60min seminar.
Mr. Mills was demonstrating New trapping ideas (again 30s of multiple 60min seminars). When on stage he generally teaches the raw mechanics of a specific technique, then throughout the seminar he and the rest of the board walk around to help people with the finer mechanics like: how and where to check the leg, what trap to use depending on where your opponent blocks, proper use of forward pressure, etc.
Many of the instructors may very well have been out of range, but how do you teach a 100+ people in each seminar by crowding your opponent? If the instructors were working the proper depth for a demo, that would be one thing, but in Vegas you can have up to 200 people trying to watch one or two people standing on a stage across a room. Sometimes you have to be accomodating. That's why they walk around during the seminar, to make sure you are doing everything right.
I guess that covers most of the obvious questions, but if there are others shoot'em on out here. There are enough of us AKKI'ers out here to field your questions.
I'm not sure what you meant by this, or for that matter what clip(s) you are specifically referring to. I do know that all the guys demonstrating specific techniques can move very fast and hit very hard.
John Connolly (5th) was teaching colored belts how to add a little bit of timing into Five Swords, which at the lower colored belt levels requires explanation of raw upper body mechanics. He backed away from his demonstration partner a couple of times so that the group of students could get a better look at the upper body movement. Also, he used open hands so that the students could see his movements better. Later on they covered some of the tear dropping for power, but you don't get to see this. This was about a 30 second look at an hour long seminar.
Derek Ence(7th) and Randall Miller(6th or 7th) were kind enough to demonstrate the technique Circling destruction, as done by the AKKI. The FOCUS here was more on showing you the sequence rather than blistering speed or outrageous power. I don't get it!!! The AKKI usually gets ragged for moving to fast but when we slow down to show you what we are actually doing we get criticized for not hitting with power. SPEED IS POWER, when properly controlled. Oh well.
Josh Lannon (4th) was demonstrating the opening portion of the new brown belt technique Slipping Fans, which is one of my favorites. It's simple, fast, and effective, but again the clip shows approx. 30 seconds of a 60min seminar.
Mr. Mills was demonstrating New trapping ideas (again 30s of multiple 60min seminars). When on stage he generally teaches the raw mechanics of a specific technique, then throughout the seminar he and the rest of the board walk around to help people with the finer mechanics like: how and where to check the leg, what trap to use depending on where your opponent blocks, proper use of forward pressure, etc.
Many of the instructors may very well have been out of range, but how do you teach a 100+ people in each seminar by crowding your opponent? If the instructors were working the proper depth for a demo, that would be one thing, but in Vegas you can have up to 200 people trying to watch one or two people standing on a stage across a room. Sometimes you have to be accomodating. That's why they walk around during the seminar, to make sure you are doing everything right.
I guess that covers most of the obvious questions, but if there are others shoot'em on out here. There are enough of us AKKI'ers out here to field your questions.
I've watched a few more and am only getting about 30 seconds of a whole class. To be negative I can only say they are 30 second commercials for a future AKKI seminar. Do they compare to your semi-extempor three minute productions? Obviously not. Without having watched more than a few, I will say would make excellent reference points for conversations on the internet about specific things shown.
Sean
OP
rmcrobertson
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #66
In what way, Sean?
As for "Kenpo Yahoo's," points, I would argue that focusing on, "raw upper body mechanics," with underbelts is precisely the wrong emphasis.
Further, the parries appear to be at fingertip length: any reason for that?
However, video can be quite deceptive: the P.O.V. can easily very much distort things.
Oh yes: I'm afraid that I do not agree that, "speed is power," even with the quite proper qualification of, "when properly controlled." I'd argue that it would be closer to write that, "form is power," though still somewhat off.
Are there any plans to ship these videos along to, say, Bullshido.com for their comments?
If you're wondering why I'm "being this way," (nobody said that, to be sure), it is because--among other things--the attacks look precisely as convincing as the ones that others were endlessly critiqued for. Personally, I take the argument that this was done to make demonstration and teaching simpler at face value--makes sense to me--and I am perfectly willing to accept the claims that students are informed of this, and shown what a more-serious attack looks like.
As for "Kenpo Yahoo's," points, I would argue that focusing on, "raw upper body mechanics," with underbelts is precisely the wrong emphasis.
Further, the parries appear to be at fingertip length: any reason for that?
However, video can be quite deceptive: the P.O.V. can easily very much distort things.
Oh yes: I'm afraid that I do not agree that, "speed is power," even with the quite proper qualification of, "when properly controlled." I'd argue that it would be closer to write that, "form is power," though still somewhat off.
Are there any plans to ship these videos along to, say, Bullshido.com for their comments?
If you're wondering why I'm "being this way," (nobody said that, to be sure), it is because--among other things--the attacks look precisely as convincing as the ones that others were endlessly critiqued for. Personally, I take the argument that this was done to make demonstration and teaching simpler at face value--makes sense to me--and I am perfectly willing to accept the claims that students are informed of this, and shown what a more-serious attack looks like.
Of course speed is major component of power. Drop a brick on your head from six inches and it will hurt. Put about 30 mph on that bad boy and you will never feel pain again. Explain to me how increasing speed does not increase power again. Your form can be perfect but if you are moving at half speed you are simply not as powerfull. You should know this dude.(I normaly wouldn't call anyone dude, but thats the lingo you guys all use). I hardly qualify my comments about a TOW body's comments as "Endlessly". You know darn well that a thirty second blurb of trying to get everyone in a room on the same page won't even warrant a comment at Bullshido.com or where ever because they know what they are seeing. I personaly don't post there because if there is one place worse than the kenponet, that is it. I will say I noticed in the past that on some clips I've seen on the IKKA website did lack pin action.
Sean
Ps before you catch my mistake, I'll catch it for you. You can't have proper form without moving fast:asian:
I have to ask. If you can't teach body mechanics to lower belts, whom can you teach them too? Wrong emphasis for whom?
Sean
Since I was the one teaching the seminar in question why dont you explain to me what I should have been placing emphasis?
Certainly body mechanics played a large roll; looking back Ill
have to look at my notes, but I seem to remember discussing executing how to synchronize proper stance changes with the
upper body.
The point was to show how to develope the power of the body
using with the speed of the hands. I covered some ideas about how to create a orbital summation with the various methods
of delivery.
Again Ill have to look at my notes again.
OP
rmcrobertson
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #70
Well, first off, instead of location, location, location, I'd say, stances, stances, stances.
It looks like a real difference in approach...I'd argue (and teach) that power comes from the ground up, not from "the body," as such--which is to say, perhaps, the torso?--and not primarily from, "orbital summation," or anything else having to do with hands. Since I was watching "Pearl harbor," on network the other night, I'd describe hands, etc., as, 'the tip of the sworwd." Not the bumper, but the car?
Nor do I agree that, "you can't have proper form without moving fast." I'd would point out that "speed," (and of course there are different types of speed worth discussing) is a byproduct of form and other things. And again, I would argue that of all the attributes one wants to develop, speed's probably LAST on the list.
Could y'all maybe explain, "the power of the body
using with the speed of the hands...how to create a orbital summation with the various methods of delivery," and how this related to your comments on stancework?
I'd also be interested to see some discussion of the parries, on, "Circling Destruction," in particular...was it just the camera angle that made the parries appear to be executed with the fingers? was it just me?
The other thing that occurs is that speed vs. power perhaps might be viewed as two halves of the same coin, kinda like light being either a particle or a wave depending on your viewpoint, and upon which equations you choose to use to describe what you're talking about...
As for, "endlessly, " in commentary and "thirty second," in video clips excuse me if I'm wrong or have the wrong posters, but I seem to recollect a very great deal--based on fairly short videos--of commentary on other videos recently...
Thanks; I appreciate the discussion.
It looks like a real difference in approach...I'd argue (and teach) that power comes from the ground up, not from "the body," as such--which is to say, perhaps, the torso?--and not primarily from, "orbital summation," or anything else having to do with hands. Since I was watching "Pearl harbor," on network the other night, I'd describe hands, etc., as, 'the tip of the sworwd." Not the bumper, but the car?
Nor do I agree that, "you can't have proper form without moving fast." I'd would point out that "speed," (and of course there are different types of speed worth discussing) is a byproduct of form and other things. And again, I would argue that of all the attributes one wants to develop, speed's probably LAST on the list.
Could y'all maybe explain, "the power of the body
using with the speed of the hands...how to create a orbital summation with the various methods of delivery," and how this related to your comments on stancework?
I'd also be interested to see some discussion of the parries, on, "Circling Destruction," in particular...was it just the camera angle that made the parries appear to be executed with the fingers? was it just me?
The other thing that occurs is that speed vs. power perhaps might be viewed as two halves of the same coin, kinda like light being either a particle or a wave depending on your viewpoint, and upon which equations you choose to use to describe what you're talking about...
As for, "endlessly, " in commentary and "thirty second," in video clips excuse me if I'm wrong or have the wrong posters, but I seem to recollect a very great deal--based on fairly short videos--of commentary on other videos recently...
Thanks; I appreciate the discussion.
Now I have just read on the Kenponet that Old Fat Kenpoka believes Mr. Mills' students are giving up power for speed. Yeah I remember Ed Parker had to slow it down for power as well(ha ha)
Sean:shrug: :shrug: :shrug:
Sean:shrug: :shrug: :shrug:
Robert people are not cars. If they hit you it will be with a fist, backnuckle, or perhaps a foot. If these weapons are not traveling on the paths of action where they are the most efficiant, your good stance work will amount to nothing. Stances do not deliver the attacks our weapons do. I say stances can be improved on, but your strikes are only as good as the path they travel. You can really do a lot of damage to your shoulder and elbow by ignoring the importance of the distal. By the way which would hurt more a baseball moving at 40 mph or 90mph. given that the mass is the same isn't one more powerfull?
OP
rmcrobertson
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #73
Uh...in mentioning cars and bumpers, I was paraphrasing one of Mr. Parker's more-famous adages.
It has been by personal experience (for what that's worth) that the attempt to develop speed, in and of itself, is a complete dead end.
It has been by personal experience (for what that's worth) that the attempt to develop speed, in and of itself, is a complete dead end.
Robert well lets see there are three types of speed: Physical, mental, and perceptual. I'll assume you were talking about physical speed for the sake of argument.
Lets break this down. Speed starts with proper posture(we good?) secondly as long as your mass falls within your base you have balance.(cool?) Now provided your skeletel structure supports the weight of your body(posture) and you are in balance, then your muscles can truly relax,then you may now move with speed. For the intention of speed you must pay attention to your posture, balance, and relaxation. And this is a dead end for you? I can only suggest you leave that dojo runnin' my freind. :asian:
Sean
Location? Maybe you should remind me what I was teaching again?
1.Problem Robert is that you have NO IDEA what was taught in my seminar and you have taken a 15 sec clip and a couple of post and made some pretty big assumptions. BUT if it makes you
feel better assume away. Therefore your conclusions are
a little unfounded.
2. I agree that stances are important but do you feel that you
should make a stance change on every Minor/ Major strike?
3. It appears that we have a different understanding of orbital summation. The hands play really a small roll in my opinion.
4. If you were not such an *** Id agree with on certain points you
made.
5. Id be interested in seeing you on video to understand what
your talking about. Would you be willing to do this????
OP
Kenpo Yahoo
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #78
Power does come from the ground up, I'll agree with you there. However, as I said controlled speed is what generates power. This requires synchronization of the upper and lower parts of the body, which is what Mr. Connolly was teaching during the course of his 60 min seminar. Oh yeah, you obviously don't even know what orbital summation is, otherwise you wouldn't have said what you did!!!!
I don't ever remember saying that you can't have proper form without moving fast. If speed is merely a byproduct of form then why don't people just go take a running class then compete in the olympics?!? Form is necessary, but you must also teach students how to move fast with form. Speed without form is possible, just ask Dan Thiel who screwed up his elbow and shoulder.
That's not a very good analogy. Power can be generated through speed, but speed cannot be generated by having power alone.
Since you obviously don't understand what we're doing, I would argue that you aren't qualified to make such statements. Also, if you will go back and read my post I said that colored belts need a sufficient "explanation of the raw upper body mechanics." I, however, did not say that they were never taught lower body mechanics.
As far as the parries being done with the fingers, I would have to guess that it was the POV. I have always been taught to use the palm of the hand when parrying. In fact in some instances I use my parries to set up grabs.
Wow...... how petty was that.
Mr. Yahoo,
I'm the one who said you can't have proper form without speed. An example would be if you slowly execute an horizontal punch off the hip there are groups of muscles you would not normaly use to hold your arm on the path you are traveling. In fact the slower you do it the harder these muscles have to work. When you move with speed you may relax these muscles completly and allow only those muscles that propel your hand forward to be in play. The less contact you make when moving fast means the more you are employing muscles to reverse the directional harmony that you had. My complaint about the vid clips is that without contact, form is compromised. If this supports Roberts' argument, in the slightest, I apologize :asian:
Sean
1. By utilizing proper body mechanics and acheiving proper body alignment to engage the mass, while also synchronizing the speed of the weapons, one can harness the forces. The devil is in the details however.
2. It is important to note that some targets at certain angles, do not require maximum power to produce results. Speed would
therfore play a greater roll and taking advantage of these targets
since power and mass is not required to do damage.
If speed is a dead end street for you, the chances are higher of
being dead on the street if your opponent is quicker then you.
3. I have to disagree with anyone who says that slowing down a strike creates more power. I cant imagine a football coach telling
a player to run slower so he can hit harder???
4. There are martail artist with the ability and the understanding that can harness both speed ( read as explosive energy) and mass with very little effort.
