Latest TOW Sophisticated Basics

[Kenpo Yahoo]

I understood what Angela meant by pulling her strike a little. The few times I threw an attack at Mr. Mills with intent, speed, and power, I got pasted pretty good (Although, it wasn't as bad as some.... who shall remain nameless ). It was for a tip and not a demonstration of sparring skill. Even BJJ'ers and Judoka are taught certain moves at less than normal speed and with less than normal resistance. It was after all a TIP not a excerpt from "Street fights caught on tape." Take the tips for what they are intended to be.

What I think about the effectiveness of the material being shown has nothing to do with the fact that the tips are helping to promote the art of kenpo. In this regard, I think they are serving their general purpose. The AKKI catches flak just about everytime we release a video on the website. Fortunately for us, we don't give a damn. Mr. Mills has released around 6-7 videos for the members of the AKKI that include training material in the various aspects of our particular system. Most outsiders will never get to see these because they would be more interested in complaining about them than they would watching them.

However, if they are ever released to the general public it will be done knowing full well that people will ***** and moan about them. That's just a part of putting something out in the public eye. DEAL WITH IT!!!

When mathematicians think they have solved one of the millenium problems, they must publish their solution which must withstand public scrutiny for a set period of time. If you publish a TIP that can't stand up to the scrutiny of the public eye you have a couple of choices to make; do you try to explain it? yell at people who don't GET IT!!!? Or do you say,"Who cares?"

It's your call.

 

[tshadowchaser]

I think it takes a good intructor or at least one interested in his students and the art he teachs to put something like "Tip OF The Week" out there on the net.
Sure fault may b found in what he dose or the ay such an such attak was made but these are training tips not real street/combate situations.
Those that do not like such sites or think hey can do better always have the oppertunity to put their stuff on the net. But be aware someone else may find ault in what you do.
(I know Ive been there and will be again soon most likely)
When someone trys to help his students and the art he belives in and teaches they sometimes make mistakes in judgement as to what they present and how it is presented at other times thy present what they want (with mistakes and or flawd technique) for verious reasons. Not all people are aware of how filmed material will look to others. Not all are film majors or have a good eye for what "others" will see. These people put out a product that appeals to them and that is as it should be.
Haveing a 5 page or so dialog on you said , no you said, no im right , no your not , has little to do with the TOW. So if you care to disscuss weather tip (insirt number) could be done a little differently (in content with the art being taught) do so , otherwise please stop wasting everyones time and take it to pm or email
thank you
Sheldon

 

[Maltair]

6 pages of nothing! :shrug:

Anyway, sophisticated basics. Are they the little extra shots you get it in if they are availabile? Like in Crossing Talon, the back hammer fist after the elbow strike. Or is it more like on Lone Kimono when you twist his arm out to get a better shot on the elbow?

 

[rmcrobertson]

Well, my understanding is that a, "sophisticated basic," is a basic move that's applied in a sophisticated way, so that it has a use or effect that's more-complex than its first, "original," use or effect.

The "Encyclopedia of Kenpo," defines "sophisticated basics," as, "a single basic move that produces multiple results," and goes on to note that, "sophisticated simplicity," is, "the ability to compound simple basics into multiple action. Moves that appear to have only one purpose, but actually produce a number of results."

If I recollect right--and I'm not sure that I do at this point--the week's Tip used a "basic" front kick in a sophisticated way.

There are a number of visible examples of this "high up," in kenpo. For example in Conquering Shield, often taught at Green belt, uses a basic inward block, as well as elbows and a heel palm claw, in a "sophisticated," way. However, there are examples of this right at the start: Mace of Aggression, for example, also teaches applying a basic right inward block in a fashion that give it multiple effects.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by Maltair
6 pages of nothing! :shrug:

Anyway, sophisticated basics. Are they the little extra shots you get it in if they are availabile? Like in Crossing Talon, the back hammer fist after the elbow strike. Or is it more like on Lone Kimono when you twist his arm out to get a better shot on the elbow?

sophisticated basics are those moves that are singular in purpose but produce multiple results. In this case it was a knee strike also happens to be the first half of a possilble kick to the knee.

 

[Michael Billings]

Touch'O'Death. You can also think of the punch in Darting Mace, which may hyperextend or break the elbow on the way to the face.

-Michael

 

[ob2c]

Boy, what you miss when you are away from this site just a little bit! How long has that TOW been out, and it has already generated all this "discussion".

Instead of tearing down something someone is doing to help the arts, why don't we all go out, try out these tips, and see if they work. I have, and they do. All of them- even that controversial ground fighting TOW. And, yes, I did it with mounted grapplers. They don't fly as well as the average TKD guy (sorry, angel, but the women took one look at my grinning face and refused to sit on me). On the other hand, the grapplers were far more surprised to learn that they could fly in the first place.

Sophisticated basics- come on guys, aren't you doing this already? What is wrong with putting it out there for everyone to get a handle on it? All styles do this, I think the Japanese arts call it "bunkai." Once you have the base move, why not look at this application?

I fail to see the controversy here. One of the best Kenpoists today puts out free tips, and instead of trying what he puts out and discussing the results, we get the web saturated with conjecture and criticism. You could expect that from a bunch of twisted grapplers and insecure "karate-do" people (and, no, I don't disrespect either group, they just tend to be a little exocentric). But, come on, most everyone here is a Kenpoist. Sort of disgusting, really.

And, while we are all getting into such things, mine is bigger than yours any how. So, I must be better, right?

 

[Seig]

This is a reminder that the EPAK forum is in fact strongly moderated. The nonsense that has gone on in this thread justifies that need. Michael Billings is the primary Kenpo Moderator and tends to be much more level headed and forgiving than most. As Mr. Billings is busy at the moment, I steped in. All material that I felt was not relative, was inflammatory, insulting, or rude, has been removed. I do apologize if this interrupts the continuity of the thread a bit. Get this back on topic and keep it polite and respectfull.
Seig
MT Admin Team

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

I have a question about the last tip of the week: Conditioning a Sparring Opponent.

Does Larry Tatum teach people to drop their hands, like he did in that clip, each time they kick? If so, what's to keep your opponent from "conditioning" your face. Just a question?

 

[Michael Billings]

Just a thought.

You know how many times in class doing basics AND in sparring class, I have to remind them their leg is not on a pulley that you have to pull down with your hand to get your leg up. Then I spoof pulling the rope (dropping my hands) while doing a front kick.

Then there is the notorious "flap your arms like a chicken" when doing a roundhouse, or the "reach out with the back hand to make sure a wall does not fall on me" when doing a high roundhouse or side kick.

All of these crack me up, but are errors I see well into Brown, expecially if you are fighting tournament rules with no contact to the face before Brown.

I hope you are not slamming the TOW, but rather making a humorous comment ... because that is how I am going to treat it!! Just another "habit" that has to be unlearned. But once again, in this context, was he dropping it for dramatic effect or to stress the point. It was not a fight, but an exhibition or demonstration of a concept.

-Michael

 

[kenpoangel]

And this topic was mentioned on both this forum and the Kenponet as to why the hands were "dropped",

For camera angle and for affect as you said. It's just a means of letting everyone see what is happening.

I can assure you we get hacked on PLENTY about keeping our guard up in/during class time.

Back to the mats,

Angela

p.s.
Clyde does the chicken thing with us as well when he sees us drop our guard during kicks. He starts yelling, "Funky Chicken!" and clucking. Needless to say it does go through your mind when you're on the mats and he's NOT there and you realize you have dropped your guard.

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

It was just a question. I am well aware of the various teaching techniques. I was simply inquiring as to the reason for dropping his hands. Something that I hope I don't do when the adrenaline kicks in. I've been pasted plenty of times for dropping my hands (thanks Reggie!!!), this is the only reason I asked the question. I was not aware that it had been discussed. Thanks for the reply. As I said earlier, I may not always agree with the methods being used but at least the TOW are helping to promote kenpo.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
It was just a question. I am well aware of the various teaching techniques. I was simply inquiring as to the reason for dropping his hands. Something that I hope I don't do when the adrenaline kicks in. I've been pasted plenty of times for dropping my hands (thanks Reggie!!!), this is the only reason I asked the question. I was not aware that it had been discussed. Thanks for the reply. As I said earlier, I may not always agree with the methods being used but at least the TOW are helping to promote kenpo.

Its clear that the examples they choose to use to illistrate certain points only seem to bring up more questions. we can only assume that if we see a practice, that is what they do. My first thought, on the hand drop, was to just kick the hand as if it were the target.
Sean

 

[Michael Billings]

TOD, that is about the silliest thing I have seen you post. You really assume that what you see on a TOW is how they really fight?

Geez man, talk about literal, do you believe everything you read also? I know I am sounding harsh here, and apologize for it ... but when someone, specifically here in the context, Mr. Tatum, puts something out re: his interpretation of application of Kenpo, and when all people can do is try to shred it ... it is disheartening, and a statement about the Kenpo "family" in general.

I can also always be critical and use analytical judgment regarding what I read and see, however, that is tempered by the circumstances in which it was offered and the context.

If I noticed him dropping his hands and we, or one of my students were sparring, that would be one thing, and like you, I would attempt to take serious advantage of it (especially if I got him reacting that way consistantly, hee-hee). But when it is in the nature of a demonstration or to make a point or filming something ... well, I have said it before, gimme a break - and you can note something like this and comment, without the assumtion that it is more than what it is, something filmed for the camera.

Sorry if I am sounding so petty here, I just get irritated when someone has the guts to put part of themselves out on the internet, especially someone as high ranking as Mr. Tatum, or Mr. Mills, then people don't appreciate their offering.

OLD KENPO ADDAGE: "How many Kenpo Black Belts does it take to screw in a lightbulb? Answer - 99, one to screw in the lightbulb, and 98 to say 'That's not the way Mr. Parker showed me'". Mr. Tatum was close to Mr. Parker for many, many years and what he offers is very close to what Mr. Parker probably intended to be marketed as his Kenpo.

:soapbox: - In retrospect, this rant was not really about you Sean. I usually appreciate your posts. Rather it is about that group of individuals who are so wrapped up in themselves that they don't appreciate the sharing of knowledge as is being done in this context. I know you usually take everything in, you don't always agree with it, but you take it in.

As Sigung says:
Student of Kenpo,
-Michael Billings

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
TOD, that is about the silliest thing I have seen you post. You really assume that what you see on a TOW is how they really fight?

Geez man, talk about literal, do you believe everything you read also? I know I am sounding harsh here, and apologize for it ... but when someone, specifically here in the context, Mr. Tatum, puts something out re: his interpretation of application of Kenpo, and when all people can do is try to shred it ... it is disheartening, and a statement about the Kenpo "family" in general.

I can also always be critical and use analytical judgment regarding what I read and see, however, that is tempered by the circumstances in which it was offered and the context.

If I noticed him dropping his hands and we, or one of my students were sparring, that would be one thing, and like you, I would attempt to take serious advantage of it (especially if I got him reacting that way consistantly, hee-hee). But when it is in the nature of a demonstration or to make a point or filming something ... well, I have said it before, gimme a break - and you can note something like this and comment, without the assumtion that it is more than what it is, something filmed for the camera.

Sorry if I am sounding so petty here, I just get irritated when someone has the guts to put part of themselves out on the internet, especially someone as high ranking as Mr. Tatum, or Mr. Mills, then people don't appreciate their offering.

OLD KENPO ADDAGE: "How many Kenpo Black Belts does it take to screw in a lightbulb? Answer - 99, one to screw in the lightbulb, and 98 to say 'That's not the way Mr. Parker showed me'". Mr. Tatum was close to Mr. Parker for many, many years and what he offers is very close to what Mr. Parker probably intended to be marketed as his Kenpo.

:soapbox: - In retrospect, this rant was not really about you Sean. I usually appreciate your posts. Rather it is about that group of individuals who are so wrapped up in themselves that they don't appreciate the sharing of knowledge as is being done in this context. I know you usually take everything in, you don't always agree with it, but you take it in.

As Sigung says:
Student of Kenpo,
-Michael Billings

I wasn't exactly slamming the vid clip, I was being trying to be ambiguous to see if I could get the thread rolling again I understand that it takes a lot of guts to put these clips out for everyone to scrutinize; however, why are Mr. Tatum's students shocked about some critisism? I will stand by saying that what is not said is far more interesting than what is said; however, I feel the lessons are pretty strait forward and easy to understand. Having been involved in hudreds of vid productions in my old ARMY days, I will say he could have rehearsed his opening statements a little more. No General would have settled for what has been accepted and aired. That being said I realize that there is a school of thought that would rather be off the cuff than rehearsed. Its all good.
Sean

 

[rmcrobertson]

I prefer not to have words placed in my mouth, frankly. I'm not shocked by criticism, Sean. I just like it to be real criticism--which in part means being clear about what you're doing, and tough with yourself about motive

Sorry, but I don't agree about the way the Tips are filmed. I've seen several as they're being done--and they're pretty much extempore. I prefer that for these particular things, since it preserves a little more of the spontaneity of good teaching. Different approach, as you mentioned--why not critique the approach for what it is, rather that what it ain't, unless there's a good reason?

For example, I'd critique a number of your responses for, a) what appears to be a lack of understanding of the goal, the topic; b) a tendency to damn with fain praise; c) a tendency to end you "critiques," with a claim that, in fact, this was done badly.

All that being said, what did you think of the other videos by Mr. Mills et al, posted lately?

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
I prefer not to have words placed in my mouth, frankly. I'm not shocked by criticism, Sean. I just like it to be real criticism--which in part means being clear about what you're doing, and tough with yourself about motive

Sorry, but I don't agree about the way the Tips are filmed. I've seen several as they're being done--and they're pretty much extempore. I prefer that for these particular things, since it preserves a little more of the spontaneity of good teaching. Different approach, as you mentioned--why not critique the approach for what it is, rather that what it ain't, unless there's a good reason?

For example, I'd critique a number of your responses for, a) what appears to be a lack of understanding of the goal, the topic; b) a tendency to damn with fain praise; c) a tendency to end you "critiques," with a claim that, in fact, this was done badly.

All that being said, what did you think of the other videos by Mr. Mills et al, posted lately?

I havn't watched them all because I spend so much damn time downloading for what I get. That being said what I have watched were a focus on proper methods of execution without them saying it. There is one where he does a backnuckle / backnuckle where I could tell that the key was to pull them off the opposite shoulder for maximum effect(like pulling the string on a bow) The five swords one that I watched did focus on getting your hand back to the hip for the uppercut; however, you kind of have to know what your looking for. Its good dope though.
Sean

 

[Touch Of Death]

And just because I used the term off the cuff and you extemporanious does not mean we are disagreeing on what was done.
Sean

 

[rmcrobertson]

First off, Sean, one of the problems with your criticism is that you don't take, "yes," for an answer. I wasn't suggesting that you'd missed something when I wrote, "different approach, as you mentioned," was I?

Second off, I found the focus in the clips to be kinda off...I wondered about where poeple were looking, and they looked a bit out of range from what I could see...

Of course, it's hard to tell from videos...limited perspective, and all that.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
First off, Sean, one of the problems with your criticism is that you don't take, "yes," for an answer. I wasn't suggesting that you'd missed something when I wrote, "different approach, as you mentioned," was I?

Second off, I found the focus in the clips to be kinda off...I wondered about where poeple were looking, and they looked a bit out of range from what I could see...

Of course, it's hard to tell from videos...limited perspective, and all that.

If your refering to the Mills, vids I would pay more attention to what they do rather than what they say. To give an example closer to home I watch what Mr. Tatum does(and wasn't even paying attention to Angela until her posts.) If you will notice Mr. Tatum always holds his hands in a hammering position real close to his body. That is bad ***. He isn't mentioning it on the video but he is ready to fire off a fast and hard shot at any second. Reversly his students assume traditional kenpo stances when facing off.(without a shuffle or slight cocking, the lead hand is nearly spent)
Sean