Kwans refused to be TKD

[Daniel Sullivan]

That's not too far off the mark. I have a friend in KKW TKD who said he should be able to get me a skip to 2nd dan right off the bat if I ever wanted to switch to taekwondo. Then regular promotions at the minimum time-in-between promotion periods.

Aren't you already second dan? Or at least first in KKW? If you're a KKW ildan, that wouldn't be a skip but simply a test for idan.

Daniel

 

[dowan50]

They probably understand the base meaning of the movements according to current doctrine, whether that be KKW or whatever TKD group you prefer to reference. I doubt most understand the context of the movements from an inheritance perspective seen through the lens of parent arts like karate or gong fu. I'll use the analogy of a palimpsest, where an old manuscript has been scraped of the prior writing and then is reused. Occasionally, some of the old text is still legible, yet it's impossible to obtain all of the old message since it has been discarded, changed, or written over entirely. This is what I refer to with regard to patterns. The patterns practiced in TKD undeniably have the stamp of other arts all over them, yet the actual sequence of movements have been changed and reshuffled. Thus, it's unlikely that anyone would have the same perspective as a practitioner of the parent art without intentionally seeking it out to learn it.

And yep, I have been in the martial arts a long time. Spent 10 years doing nothing but traveling the world to study various systems thanks to a trust fund. I've spent 2 semesters with exposure to a KKW 9th dan and his senior students both at college as well as at his dojang where my prior experience in other styles was respected. I've seen many expressions of TKD. Don't take it personally if my perspective is different than yours.

Thank you yours is one of the better explanations with regards to applications of the movements in a more non threatening propositions to those who possibly do not have open minds to the fact that tkd was developed from other origins. The point being doing the basics and building strength and muscle memory is good but eventually all art regardless of style goes back to central origins of 8 or 10 thousand years ago we are all one if we just go back far enough?

A group of us prominent students of a pioneer TKD GM became concerned that our self defense skills were not truly as good as could be when exposed to other accomplished people on the street and other areas. One of our individuals was even a prominent World champion and their was much upset and stress from our GM even in later years when one of our core group was coming great distance to stay and train with me his fear being I was going to give loyalty to another GM and Style after much time and assurances that nothing would change between us he was more open minded even in later years I noticed a pressure points book on his table he even allowed seminars to be taught by one of the main GM's we were studying under in his main Dojang and they became friends. One of our group has traveled twice to China with one of the GM's in our secondary style.

For my part I did not meet any TKD people in the 80/90's with any knowledge of the inherited applications. I was taught two approaches one is you must have an open mind or unlearn what you have learned. Another explanation has been stated how many masters died in 60 years of teaching being outlawed by the Japanese and the knowledge was lost and what was being showed publicly could not be interpreted by unwanted or unintentional audience but miss information and myth and legend later became a fixed tradition and explanation. Example one day our GM was telling me about Crane Stance and he said it was developed by the founders watching a crane eat it would attack the fish when it was standing on one leg? Well now how is that bit of information going to save my life?? I love this mans as my father and would never argue but in fact it is a mapping point to remind me of angle and direction on hitting the other person's leg with a specific part of my foot one of four primary PP points to the knee. I am seeing more people in TKD every year that are beginning to embrace this even publically but is it main stream no I think not. It has been discussed if you want your students to become more interested in forms then make it more fun for them by exposing them to the inherited applications? I teach what ever a person is ready for based on age and need.

On the other side seems now some in Kempo and other styles will say some of the TKD people who have gained this knowledge and skill set are putting to much meaning in to TKD movements that was never there. Well the Global GM's in Kyusho Jitsu would disagree saying there is no single only explanation of any movement but only multiple possibilities depending on what targets of opportunities present themselves. Frankly in Olympic Sparring now that the gloves are off if they would train their hands properly and knew the lung points and others they could punch right through that chest protector and do some real damage at least combined with feet we would see more knock outs.

Bottom line is use what works for you. I think a hard line drawn in the sand of thinking only one way leads to a vision of the world is flat?

Thanks for your post

 

[dancingalone]

Aren't you already second dan? Or at least first in KKW? If you're a KKW ildan, that wouldn't be a skip but simply a test for idan.

Daniel

I have an ee-dan in TKD but it is not KKW.

 

[puunui]

Again I see your point and would agree if it was here in the states, but the op said he tested at the KKW and that would not be accepted in that area. I can only go by what I have been told since I am never going to get to 7th for some time frame.

I wrote the "op" and I never said that he tested at the Kukkiwon.

 

[dancingalone]

I am a gentleman,I do not wear panties,and the ones I do have I keep folded nicely on my dresser. Regardless of what some people suggest,no it is not ok for anyone no matter what rank to request advancement for anyone who does not fullfill the requirements. Does it happen? I suppose it does as it is only one's integrity or other moral values to keep such things in check.
Could it happen in any art,I think so.Why would anyone want a belt they know they do not deserve and why would a high dan want to cheapen their own line of students by handing out these belts to fakes? I don't know if you are trolling or you have a friend who is of low moral character,but I am not angry at all,just sad at the attempt you make here.

Actually, what you should find sad is how you are so quick to read misdeed into others.

True or false? The KKW permits a skip dan, even for someone who does not currently hold a KKW chodan. If true, then you have no reason at all to object or imply that my friend had made an improper gesture towards me, since you cannot know his intent in offering it, nor mine in declining it. Nor do you know or not whether the offer was conditional upon meeting all KKW technical requirements, yet you seem to have inferred that something shady was discussed since you brought up the term 'integrity'.

Perhaps a chill pill for you is in order?

 

[terryl965]

I wrote the "op" and I never said that he tested at the Kukkiwon.

You are correct, I assumed it was at the KKW since must Korean born go there for such a test. My bad and I will not assume next time but ask the question first. So if I may where did he test for his 7th?

 

[dancingalone]

I too have been around a long time, I have a lot more than a couple of semesters? doing TKD and other arts as well, at my age I do not worry so much about years of exposure as much as I do how much the person absorbed during those years.

Well, I wonder what you have absorbed then, given the rather awkward situation you've placed yourself in by making certain assumptions about others from a very limited MT window.

I have studied bunkai and unlike some I do noy see it as mysterious. I see from many of your post's lots of questions someone with expeirience should have answers to.

Congrats?

I see from many of your post's lots of questions someone with expeirience should have answers to.

I think you are one of those literal minded people who thinks every opportunity for discussion must mean the writer is asking for personal guidance rather than facilitating an opportunity for others (and yes occasionally for oneself).

I am close to 60 and learned my first kicking from my father when he returned from the Korean war, I took some training in shotokan when I was a little older,and I was exposed to judo as a child also.I would hardly say that was MA experience and count my years from there. I also have taken seminars in many arts over the years but would not say I have eperience in those arts just because I took a seminar.
I realise we have different perspectives, and I certainly do noy take anything on any BBS personally. I would say that no matter what dojang you go to train at you will be respected for your prior experience, or lack of,Taekwondoin are like that.

I would suggest re-examining yourself then. Your comment about my friend and I lacking integrity was neither gentlemanly nor germane nor even sound in logic.

 

[puunui]

So if I may where did he test for his 7th?

Either in Michigan or Colorado. It was in front of his instructor, USTU Past President Hwa CHONG.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I have an ee-dan in TKD but it is not KKW.

So essentially, you would be testing for second and would need to meet all of the KKW requirements for second dan. Wouldn't see why this would be a problem; you either know the material and can execute it, and pass, or you don't and you fail.

Would this be considered a skip dan? Given that you already hold a second dan. I always thought of skip dans as being for those who had been in grade for long enough to cover more than one grade (no factual reason; just the impression that I had).

Daniel

 

[leadleg]

Well, I wonder what you have absorbed then, given the rather awkward situation you've placed yourself in by making certain assumptions about others from a very limited MT window.
I do not see anything awkward here except your being upset


Congrats?
thanks


I think you are one of those literal minded people who thinks every opportunity for discussion must mean the writer is asking for personal guidance rather than facilitating an opportunity for others (and yes occasionally for oneself).
written words are fairly literal


I would suggest re-examining yourself then. Your comment about my friend and I lacking integrity was neither gentlemanly nor germane nor even sound in logic.

If you are thinking of taking a BB or two and do not know the criteria I would question your integrity,if your friend is selling or giving out BB's to undeserving people then yes I would think that without question he has little integrity.Show me the lack of logic here.

 

[dancingalone]

If you are thinking of taking a BB or two and do not know the criteria I would question your integrity,if your friend is selling or giving out BB's to undeserving people then yes I would think that without question he has little integrity.Show me the lack of logic here.

I shouldn't have to illuminate it for you. You made assumptions in your mind that 1) my friend would promote me in his style without me meeting the requirements and 2) that I would accept the promotion.

Thy foot is in thy mouth. Remove it.

 

[dancingalone]

So essentially, you would be testing for second and would need to meet all of the KKW requirements for second dan. Wouldn't see why this would be a problem; you either know the material and can execute it, and pass, or you don't and you fail.

Correct!

Would this be considered a skip dan? Given that you already hold a second dan. I always thought of skip dans as being for those who had been in grade for long enough to cover more than one grade (no factual reason; just the impression that I had).

Daniel

Perhaps I am using the 'skip dan' term wrongly. I thought it applied as I do not hold any KKW credentials at all, thus making the chodan rank a skipped one.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Come on guys. There are already enough terse exchanges going on. If you have a question about the integrity of something, ask the poster first. If someone is questioning the integrity of something that you have posted, simply explain it first.

There is a reason that I ask first before judging other's posts. Saves a lot of unnecessary hassle.

Daniel

 

[leadleg]

Actually, what you should find sad is how you are so quick to read misdeed into others.

True or false? The KKW permits a skip dan, even for someone who does not currently hold a KKW chodan. If true, then you have no reason at all to object or imply that my friend had made an improper gesture towards me, since you cannot know his intent in offering it, nor mine in declining it. Nor do you know or not whether the offer was conditional upon meeting all KKW technical requirements, yet you seem to have inferred that something shady was discussed since you brought up the term 'integrity'.

Perhaps a chill pill for you is in order?

False,you must know the required curriculum, the skip dan is for those with the required time in but missed the advancment for some reason.It is allowed 1 time only.
Secondly you said he would advance you at every oppurtunity,you are backpeddling here, and again I am not in need of a chill pill,I am quite calm.

 

[dancingalone]

False,you must know the required curriculum, the skip dan is for those with the required time in but missed the advancment for some reason.It is allowed 1 time only.

You are digging a deeper hole for yourself.

Answer this: is it possible for someone outside the KKW to grade immediately to 2nd dan, skipping the 1st dan rank, because they have trained outside KKW walls during their entire career?

Obviously the technical requirements for the rank need to be met both in knowledge and whatever time-in-grade or time-between-promotion there is. Odd that you assume others must be engaging in misdeed as a matter of course.

Secondly you said he would advance you at every oppurtunity,you are backpeddling here,

How so? I am an excellent martial artist. I have never failed any promotional examination, in a variety of martial arts. I wouldn't intend to start failing if I were to take up the KKW battery. All I said is that my friend intended to promote me at each minimum period, something that frankly shouldn't be too shocking as I imagine the practice is common. Again, YOU choose to read something negative into it, rather than it being there.

and again I am not in need of a chill pill,I am quite calm

Then you need a censor or a firewall between your brain and your fingers.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I restate:

Come on guys. There are already enough terse exchanges going on. If you have a question about the integrity of something, ask the poster first. If someone is questioning the integrity of something that you have posted, simply explain it first.

There is a reason that I ask first before judging other's posts. Saves a lot of unnecessary hassle.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

Appreciate it, Daniel. I will let my previous responses speak for themselves, unless I am impugned again.

 

[leadleg]

If you know the criteria,and its not much as KKW minimum standards,you should be able to test for 1st dan, if you have an instructor who feels you meet the reqirements for 2nd and you have a certificate from another tkd org. that shows a date more than 1 year from this time then yes you could get to 2nd dan. If you meet the criteria again in the required time in ,yes you could test again.
You are correct that I made an assumption from the two previous posts to yours.
I hope you do become KKW certified as I am sure all Taekwondoin would benefit from your joining our ranks.

 

[dancingalone]

Thank you.

 

[terryl965]

Either in Michigan or Colorado. It was in front of his instructor, USTU Past President Hwa CHONG.

Thank you