Kum-Do Vs. Ken-Do

[Brother John]

What is the relationship between Kendo and Kumdo?
What is the difference??

Thank you


Your Brother
John

 

[pstarr]

I haven't seen a LOT of kum-do but from what bit I've observed, it lacks the precision and focus of kendo and the footwork and body shifting is very different.

 

[pgsmith]

It depends upon the flavor of kumdo. Kendo, at least in the U.S. is pretty much the same, almost every kendo dojo is a member of the All U.S. Kendo Federation, which is in turn a member of the International Kendo Federation. Their rules are all the same, their practice is the same, the competitions are the same. There are several different kumdo organizations. Only one of them is connected with the IKF. THe only difference between IKF kendo and IKF kumdo is that in a kumdo match, they don't use sonkyo (crouch down position to start), and the shinpan's flags are blue and white instead of red and white. Other than that they are the same art. Kendo and Kumdo are different pronunciations of the same kanji.

 

[mtabone]

I haven't seen a LOT of kum-do but from what bit I've observed, it lacks the precision and focus of kendo and the footwork and body shifting is very different.

I train in Hai Dong Gum Do. It does not lack the precision and focus of kendo, as they are as similar as pgsmith stated. The forms are drastically different though, Gumdo/Kumdo being a little more “flashy” and Kendo being more basic. (And I will of course put the caveat that I am speaking generaly.)

When it comes to stuff like precision and focus, I tend not to blame the art, I blame the practitioner.

Michael Tabone

 

[Brother John]

When it comes to stuff like precision and focus, I tend not to blame the art, I blame the practitioner.

Michael Tabone

Mr. Tabone-
That's probably one of the WISEST single lines I've ever read on Martial Talk!!!
:asian:

Your Brother
John

 

[mtabone]

thank you sir

:asian:

 

[Ninjamom]

Paul's comments on kendo vs kumdo are correct. 'Kendo' and 'Kumdo' are the Japanese and the Korean pronunciation for the same Chinese characters, meaning 'way of the sword'. In Japan, 'kendo' has come to mean the sparring-focussed sword art practiced with bogu and shinai. In Korea, the word still retains more of the original meaning of any sword-related martial art. Thus, in Korea, all kendo is considered a type of kumdo (a sword 'way'), but not all kumdo is the same as kendo (just like all judo is a 'martial art', but not all martial arts are judo).

There are several lines of kumdo (Korean sword art) that are identical to kendo (Japanese sword sparring with shinai), and these include Daehan Kumdo (Korea Kumdo Association), which is officially sanctioned as Korea's representative organization in the IKF, and Hankuk Kumdo (Korea Kumdo Federation), which is not. As Paul mentioned, the only differences between these styles and kendo is the lack of the sonkyo, color of the scoring flags, and the use of Korean terms vs. Japanese terms. The two schools differ between each other in their short forms, and in their willingness to admit that their styles are essentially the same as kendo.

In addition to these two groups, there are dozens of Korean sword arts (also called 'kumdo') that are nothing at all like kendo. These include Daehan Haidong Gumdo, Hankuk Haedong Kumdo, Saegye Haedong Kumdo, Muye Eship Saban, Sip Palgi, Gicheonmun, Bonkuk Gumpup, and probably a dozen or so more. For some links to video clips that show *some* of these different groups, try this website (that, believe-it-or-not, is an English-language links list for a kendo school in Mexico). The top section has links to clips for a half dozen Korean sword groups, and the rest of the page has some excellent links for all-things-kendo. There are also two decent overview clips on haidong gumdo at the bottom of this webpage, and your usual mix of good, bad, and ugly film clips available through the search feature on www.youtube.com.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Ninjamom, love the info! Not much that I can add. I know that the thread is old, but I just had to give Kudos

Daniel

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

It depends upon the flavor of kumdo. Kendo, at least in the U.S. is pretty much the same, almost every kendo dojo is a member of the All U.S. Kendo Federation, which is in turn a member of the International Kendo Federation. Their rules are all the same, their practice is the same, the competitions are the same. There are several different kumdo organizations. Only one of them is connected with the IKF. THe only difference between IKF kendo and IKF kumdo is that in a kumdo match, they don't use sonkyo (crouch down position to start), and the shinpan's flags are blue and white instead of red and white. Other than that they are the same art. Kendo and Kumdo are different pronunciations of the same kanji.

This is a good description based on having the opportunity to train in both for awhile way back in the day.

 

[arnisador]

Kumdo is a Korean version of Kendo. It's much more similar to Kendo than Tae Kwon Do is to its root art, Karate. Take away the orean terminology and any differences in dress and you'd be hard-pressed to tell the difference between the arts.

Ninjamom is correct that there are some iaido/kenjutsu-like Korean arts that don't fit this model but do use the term kumdo or gumdo!

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Given that kumdo/gumdo literally translates as 'sword way', it can be an umbrella term. Generally, I've never seen a non-kendo style kumdo termed as Gumdo, however. It seems that Gumdo is used in the west for those Korean arts dissimilar to kendo.

Our school practices the kendo sparring style with some Korean forms in the art portion of the curriculum. Iaito and kum bup (sword method) are a large part of our curriculum. I sometimes use the term, 'kuhapdo', but as we practice with a katana specifically (and have 'kendo' on our door), I generally stick with calling it iaito, as it is appropriate to the weapon and so people know what I'm talking about.

Daniel

 

[Kyosanim]

What is the relationship between Kendo and Kumdo?
What is the difference??

Thank you


Your Brother
John

Gumdo/Kumdo is Korean for way of the sword. Kendo is Japanese for way of the sword. Kendo is the modern form of kenjutsu practiced by the samurai. Gumdo/Kumdo is the weapon art of the Korean Hwarang warriors. The Hwarang predate the Samurai by 150 years, and gumdo predates kenjutsu by this long approx. The Hwarang of Silla were over thrown by the larger Koryo dynasty, and this group was forced to flee into japan. Two generations later the Japanese had founded the samurai class practicing what was at that time an identical martial art under a different name. Make of this what you will. I personally have practiced gumdo and kenjutsu, and can tell you that the Japanese form is more advanced. The footing they teach you right off the bat is WAAAAYYYY!!!!!!!! different, and I don't like the pigeon toed stance gumdo uses. The koreans invented what we call the samurai sword, and the martial art built around it, but the Japanese really broke it down, and took the MA as well as the sword to a whole new level. I'm not knocking gumdo I love it, but it is a much older art, that was suppressed during the Japanese occupation of Korea, so it really didn't have the opportunity to grow, but you can in a way consider kendo to be it's legacy. P.S. This is what I was told by a Korean man so this is their view of things. I don't think one is really better than the other it all depends on the swordsman. The guy who taught me kenjutsu was a 5th degree black belt or master if you will. The guy who taught me gumdo was an 8th degree black belt or grand master, and there was no comparison between the two. The grandmaster would win hands down every time. It all depends how much you want to invest in it, however if you are looking to compete in tournaments then You should go with kendo because gumdo tournaments are hard to find, and an authentic korean grand master who really knows their stuff will be even harder to find with how bastardized the korean arts have become in the US. You can hardly find a real tae kwon do school anymore, and there are a lot of people who will claim to know gumdo that don't! trust me. I'm only a yellow belt in kumdo, but I have smoked guys who think their bad *** but they don't really know anything about sword fighting. Note G and K are inter changeable sounds in Korean as are Tae and Tai which is why some people say Tai Kwon Do and other say Tae Kwon Do as in Tay.


I hope this answers your question, and have a nice day John.

 

[Kyosanim]

Kumdo is a Korean version of Kendo. It's much more similar to Kendo than Tae Kwon Do is to its root art, Karate. Take away the orean terminology and any differences in dress and you'd be hard-pressed to tell the difference between the arts.

Ninjamom is correct that there are some iaido/kenjutsu-like Korean arts that don't fit this model but do use the term kumdo or gumdo!

I would like to point out that karate is not the root art of all taekwondo styles. Some come from Taek Kyon a very old korean style. Durring the Japanese occupation the Koreans had to hide their own arts in the Japanese ones. This gave birth to tangsoodo a half karate half taekwondo mix. the Tae Kwon Do we know now is a purely korean art based on their philosophies, or so they claim.

 

[Omar B]

I've heard that Taekyon/TKD argument before, but it doesn't bear out since TKD and Teakyon's kicking are so mechanically different that there is no way to link one to the other.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Gumdo/Kumdo is Korean for way of the sword. Kendo is Japanese for way of the sword. Kendo is the modern form of kenjutsu practiced by the samurai.

No. Kenjutsu is the modern form of Kenjutsu. Kendo is a gendai budo, and while it has its origins in kenjutsu, it is not the same as actually being modern kenjutsu.

Kendo is the modern form of Gekiken, which is what it was originally called, which is essentially fencing.

Generally, the term Daehan kumdo is applied to Korean Kendo to differentiate it from other Korean sword arts.

Gumdo/Kumdo is the weapon art of the Korean Hwarang warriors. The Hwarang predate the Samurai by 150 years, and gumdo predates kenjutsu by this long approx. The Hwarang of Silla were over thrown by the larger Koryo dynasty, and this group was forced to flee into japan. Two generations later the Japanese had founded the samurai class practicing what was at that time an identical martial art under a different name. Make of this what you will. I personally have practiced gumdo and kenjutsu, and can tell you that the Japanese form is more advanced. The footing they teach you right off the bat is WAAAAYYYY!!!!!!!! different, and I don't like the pigeon toed stance gumdo uses.

Technically, kumdo can be applied to any Korean sword art, including whatever the Hwarang practiced, though I think they likely would have called it something other than kumdo. Not sure how far back, historically, 'do' martial arts go in Korea. In Japan, they began in the nineteenth century.

If you don't mind my asking, what style of gumdo do you practice?

The koreans invented what we call the samurai sword, and the martial art built around it, but the Japanese really broke it down, and took the MA as well as the sword to a whole new level.

I had read this a while back and it did make sense. I believe that the Korean term would have been hwando.

I'm not knocking gumdo I love it, but it is a much older art, that was suppressed during the Japanese occupation of Korea, so it really didn't have the opportunity to grow, but you can in a way consider kendo to be it's legacy. P.S. This is what I was told by a Korean man so this is their view of things. I don't think one is really better than the other it all depends on the swordsman. The guy who taught me kenjutsu was a 5th degree black belt or master if you will. The guy who taught me gumdo was an 8th degree black belt or grand master, and there was no comparison between the two. The grandmaster would win hands down every time. It all depends how much you want to invest in it, however if you are looking to compete in tournaments then You should go with kendo because gumdo tournaments are hard to find, and an authentic korean grand master who really knows their stuff will be even harder to find with how bastardized the korean arts have become in the US.

I concur.

You can hardly find a real tae kwon do school anymore, and there are a lot of people who will claim to know gumdo that don't! trust me. I'm only a yellow belt in kumdo, but I have smoked guys who think their bad *** but they don't really know anything about sword fighting. Note G and K are inter changeable sounds in Korean as are Tae and Tai which is why some people say Tai Kwon Do and other say Tae Kwon Do as in Tay.

Smoked them in what? A kendo/Daehan Kumdo guy will generally fare well against a kenjutsu/hdgd guy under kendo rules. Kenjutsu and similar Korean arts do not have a sportive aspect, but generally kendo type fighters are unaccustomed to the stances and some of the techniques used in kenjutsu or similar Korean arts, mainly due to the fact that the shinai/juk-to is essentially a separate weapon and kendo/Daehan kumdo is designed around fighting with that weapon under a very narrow and focused rule set.

Daniel

 

[Dwight McLemore]

I've got my 1st Dan in Kumdo (Kendo) ( The Sport Aspect). The only difference I noticed with Kendo was in some of the preliminary protocol drills one goes through prior to a match. Kendo people tend to squat down during the initial bowing in but other than terminology I did not see much difference. There are some groups that focus on "Point Kendo" which is a tippy-tappy' style that is really soft and all about Art as much as the full speed sport stuff. My old master told me that the biggest differnce he noticed was the number of people that are in the classes in Japan vs. Korea. For a look into the Korea Martial Arts of the past check out Sang H. Kim's Muye Dobo Tongji ( The Comprehensive Illustrated Manual of the Martial Arts). Anyone here in the Tidewater Virginia still practicing Kumdo or Kendo?

Best
Dwight

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Technically, all kendo is point kendo, at least if it is FIK. The KKA (Korean Kumdo Association) is the Korean affiliate of the FIK (the AUSKF is the US affiliate). Kind of how USAT is the US affiliate of the Kukkiwon.

All kendo matches begin with a formality bowing, approaching, drawing the shinai and then performing the sonkyo, a squatting kneel. The last tournament that I attended was primarily FIK kendoka, but there were some kumdo school there as well (ours being one of them).

In kendo, the point cannot be 'tippy tappy' and still be awarded. the philosophy is that if you just scored hits, both players would probably 'kill' each many times over in a single match. The idea is to score points by making direct, solid, and most importantly, correct strikes to valid targets. Taps do not score.

I am unaware of any groups that can be classified as legitimate kendo (legitimate meaning FIK or in the same style as the FIK) that do soft touches, unless you are talking about the competitors not wearing bogu and using the bokuto, in which case the touches would have to be soft, though I have never heard such referred to as kendo.

Daniel

 

[MBuzzy]

I would like to point out that karate is not the root art of all taekwondo styles. Some come from Taek Kyon a very old korean style. Durring the Japanese occupation the Koreans had to hide their own arts in the Japanese ones. This gave birth to tangsoodo a half karate half taekwondo mix. the Tae Kwon Do we know now is a purely korean art based on their philosophies, or so they claim.

I hate to do this in this thread, but I would just like to clarify a point here. Taegwondo can most directly trace its lineage through Karate, mainly because of the Japanese occupation. In addition, taekyon was a game to the best of our knowledge, not a martial arts style. In more modern times, it has evolved into something of a martial arts styles, more closely resembling capoera in my opinion. The problem here is that official records were mostly destroyed during the Japanese occupation. That is why so many "old Koreans" can get away with making up history. There is also the point of Korean culture. It is disrespectful to disagree with someone who's age or authority outranks you, so many times, the "truth" becomes what the most senior person says. BUT, we can move that discussion to the TKD forum if we want to get more into it!

 

[MBuzzy]

Gumdo/Kumdo is Korean for way of the sword. Kendo is Japanese for way of the sword. Kendo is the modern form of kenjutsu practiced by the samurai. Gumdo/Kumdo is the weapon art of the Korean Hwarang warriors. The Hwarang predate the Samurai by 150 years, and gumdo predates kenjutsu by this long approx. The Hwarang of Silla were over thrown by the larger Koryo dynasty, and this group was forced to flee into japan. Two generations later the Japanese had founded the samurai class practicing what was at that time an identical martial art under a different name. Make of this what you will. I personally have practiced gumdo and kenjutsu, and can tell you that the Japanese form is more advanced. The footing they teach you right off the bat is WAAAAYYYY!!!!!!!! different, and I don't like the pigeon toed stance gumdo uses. The koreans invented what we call the samurai sword, and the martial art built around it, but the Japanese really broke it down, and took the MA as well as the sword to a whole new level. I'm not knocking gumdo I love it, but it is a much older art, that was suppressed during the Japanese occupation of Korea, so it really didn't have the opportunity to grow, but you can in a way consider kendo to be it's legacy. P.S. This is what I was told by a Korean man so this is their view of things. I don't think one is really better than the other it all depends on the swordsman. The guy who taught me kenjutsu was a 5th degree black belt or master if you will. The guy who taught me gumdo was an 8th degree black belt or grand master, and there was no comparison between the two. The grandmaster would win hands down every time. It all depends how much you want to invest in it, however if you are looking to compete in tournaments then You should go with kendo because gumdo tournaments are hard to find, and an authentic korean grand master who really knows their stuff will be even harder to find with how bastardized the korean arts have become in the US. You can hardly find a real tae kwon do school anymore, and there are a lot of people who will claim to know gumdo that don't! trust me. I'm only a yellow belt in kumdo, but I have smoked guys who think their bad *** but they don't really know anything about sword fighting. Note G and K are inter changeable sounds in Korean as are Tae and Tai which is why some people say Tai Kwon Do and other say Tae Kwon Do as in Tay.

I truly wish it were that easy. When talking about Korean sword tradition, we do know that it is old, but as to where it came from, age, etc...I'm not sure that even the Koreans have ACCURATE records showing that. The Hwarang for example - depending on your source, they can be anything from a ruling warrior class to little more than boy scouts. The term literally means "Flower Youth" and as far as we know, they were trained as warriors, but to say that they predate Japanese styles or that the Korean "invented" the curved steel sword is a bit beyond the historical evidence that we have. There are many stories that go along with this in Korea, but in terms of documented evidence, most of it was destroyed during the Japanese occupation. Anyway, Japanese....Korean....doesn't matter, it ALL came from China.

As for G and K being interchangable....not so much. Their sounds are very defined based on placement in the word and the actual character used. For Tae/Tai - it IS tae (as in te)....Americans just say it wrong.

 

[MBuzzy]

and now back to your regularly scheduled programming!

Something to consider in this discussion - when we are comparing "Gumdo" to a Kendo, we should probably be more specific. Gumdo is a broad term meaning sword way....but there are many different sword styles in Korea. Daehan Kumdo, Haidong Gumdo, Kumdo, Gumdo, and many others not even using the word Gumdo or Kumdo. Korean sword styles are just as varied as Japanese. If you're comparing Haidong Gumdo to Kendo - no comparison. Haidong Gumdo is a battlefield/hyung based style, Kendo is not. So the distinction is important!