Krav Maga training effectiveness

[Juany118]

We are basically discussing the same move.

oh okay then, it was the "throw" before the strip that threw me off (no pun intended). I prefer to get the gun away before I toss someone around and risk an accidental discharge that could hurt someone else.

 

[jobo]

oh okay then, it was the "throw" before the strip that threw me off (no pun intended). I prefer to get the gun away before I toss someone around and risk an accidental discharge that could hurt someone else.

has any one,actually tried this with,a real bad guy and a real gun stuck on their forehead ?

 

[Juany118]

has any one,actually tried this with,a real bad guy and a real gun stuck on their forehead ?

I have done so under the following. Training partner and a S&W M&P with a simmunition barrel. I would actually find that to be "worse" than a real bad guy because the training partner knows the strip is coming where as a real bad guy will expect compliance or an attempt at flight. Got my "bell rung" the first few times because even with protection, at that range the Sim hits kinda hard but once you get the simultaneous zone while grabbing it works.

 

[jobo]

I have done so under the following. Training partner and a S&W M&P with a simmunition barrel. I would actually find that to be "worse" than a real bad guy because the training partner knows the strip is coming where as a real bad guy will expect compliance or an attempt at flight. Got my "bell rung" the first few times because even with protection, at that range the Sim hits kinda hard but once you get the simultaneous zone while grabbing it works.

so no then, I've seen it in the movies,i don't doubt it could be done, if you are faster than a rattle snake on,speed, just wondering what the survival rate is in real life

 

[Juany118]

so no then, I've seen it in the movies,i don't doubt it could be done, if you are faster than a rattle snake on,speed, just wondering what the survival rate is in real life

So being shot by a real gun in the head when you don't do it right doesn't count? Lol. You do know that's all a simmunition barrel is correct? Same magazine, gunpowder propelled projectiles. It's just the Sim round is about the size of a .32 and is plastic and filled with paint so you need to swap the barrel out.

Also as I noted in that kind of scenario the training partner KNOWS you are going for a disarm and so is on a hair trigger. The bad guy doesn't expect someone to try it and is surprised. Ergo this is actually a rare case where "if it works in training it has a better chance of working on the street" because in training the surprise factor is largely non-existent.

It doesn't even require as much speed as you think it does. The first thing you do to set it up is raise your hands up to your fix this accomplishes two things. First it gets your hands already in the position they need to be to launch the grab as you Zone. 2nd along with little bit of acting which shouldn't be too hard in the circumstances it basically creates the appearance of submission through fear. Creating that sense of submission in the assailant gives you an extra Split Second or so in order to do what you have to do. Then it is not only a matter of doing the grav you have to simultaneously Zone if you don't when you grab that gun you can still get a shot off and get you. The fact that you're zoning at the same time as you take control the weapon means that even if he does get a shot off you aren't there for him to shoot and the fact that you have control of the weapon means he can't track you. Do either one before the other and you're probably in a world of hurt though and it is getting that simultaneous action that's the difficult part but it's that simultaneous action which means you don't mean to be as fast as a snake to pull it off.

 

[jobo]

So being shot by a real gun in the head when you don't do it right doesn't count? Lol. You do know that's all a simmunition barrel is correct? Same magazine, gunpowder propelled projectiles. It's just the Sim round is about the size of a .32 and is plastic and filled with paint so you need to swap the barrel out.

Also as I noted in that kind of scenario the training partner KNOWS you are going for a disarm and so is on a hair trigger. The bad guy doesn't expect someone to try it and is surprised. Ergo this is actually a rare case where "if it works in training it has a better chance of working on the street" because in training the surprise factor is largely non-existent.

It doesn't even require as much speed as you think it does. The first thing you do to set it up is raise your hands up to your fix this accomplishes two things. First it gets your hands already in the position they need to be to launch the grab as you Zone. 2nd along with little bit of acting which shouldn't be too hard in the circumstances it basically creates the appearance of submission through fear. Creating that sense of submission in the assailant gives you an extra Split Second or so in order to do what you have to do. Then it is not only a matter of doing the grav you have to simultaneously Zone if you don't when you grab that gun you can still get a shot off and get you. The fact that you're zoning at the same time as you take control the weapon means that even if he does get a shot off you aren't there for him to shoot and the fact that you have control of the weapon means he can't track you. Do either one before the other and you're probably in a world of hurt though and it is getting that simultaneous action that's the difficult part but it's that simultaneous action which means you don't mean to be as fast as a snake to pull it off.

im still waiting for someone to say they have done it or even seen it done in real life.

people waving guns around are prone to pull the trigger t, when they didn't mean to, I don't doubt that any sudden movement will have them fire, the only question is in the 3/10s of a,second it takes them to pull the trigger, have you got the gun pointing somewhere else and of course id it now pointed at someone else?

 

[drop bear]

has any one,actually tried this with,a real bad guy and a real gun stuck on their forehead ?

Nope. Mine is just a best guess.

 

[drop bear]

im still waiting for someone to say they have done it or even seen it done in real life.

people waving guns around are prone to pull the trigger t, when they didn't mean to, I don't doubt that any sudden movement will have them fire, the only question is in the 3/10s of a,second it takes them to pull the trigger, have you got the gun pointing somewhere else and of course id it now pointed at someone else?

It is kind of like CPR. You try it when the alternative is worse.

 

[jobo]

It is kind of like CPR. You try it when the alternative is worse.

im not sure that coming to the quite reasonable,conclusion that if he intended to shoot you, rather than,requiring you to do something, he would already have,done so, isn't a better option. Fine if you know for a fact the next few moments are your last, then why not, after all it works every time in the movies

 

[drop bear]

im not sure that coming to the quite reasonable,conclusion that if he intended to shoot you, rather than,requiring you to do something, he would already have,done so, isn't a better option. Fine if you know for a fact the next few moments are your last, then why not, after all it works every time in the movies

The theory is you don't go to the secondary crime scene. So if you are going to get shot. Get it in the street where help could come. Not in their basement where they can do what they want.

I use that disarm for a lot of non gun stuff. So it is not completely wasted effort.

 

[jobo]

The theory is you don't go to the secondary crime scene. So if you are going to get shot. Get it in the street where help could come. Not in their basement where they can do what they want.

I use that disarm for a lot of non gun stuff. So it is not completely wasted effort.

im not sure that after getting 9 mm in the brain help is much good to you. But I suppose I see your point, if they are wandering you to some where quieter to kill you vwhy not

 

[Juany118]

im still waiting for someone to say they have done it or even seen it done in real life.

people waving guns around are prone to pull the trigger t, when they didn't mean to, I don't doubt that any sudden movement will have them fire, the only question is in the 3/10s of a,second it takes them to pull the trigger, have you got the gun pointing somewhere else and of course id it now pointed at someone else?

Hmmm really? I have responded to a lot of shootings in my day and in almost 20 years the only times there was an "oh crap" was when the person shot themselves.

Also you note the time to pull the trigger. Good, I was actually hoping you would. The average reaction time of a person, under ideal circumstances (they are ready to react, perfect lighting etc) is ~.25 seconds. This is to perform a rather linear task as well, say just pulling the trigger.

So here we have a scenario where the following factors typically exist in a street encounter BEFORE you do anything.
1. The bad guy doesn't want to kill you. They want your money, keys, cellphone, not a murder rap.
2. They are expecting compliance born of fear, after all they have a gun to your head.
3. They are tunnel visioned on the gun and what it is pointing at, in this case your head.

The first two are going to slow his reaction time even further. The third is something the technique exploits.

I could go into detail on the technique but the thing is you have a person who is likely to have a slower than .25 second reaction time. Why is this important? The average untrained person can strike with a fist at a speed of 22 fps. You are reaching for a gun AND zoning, the gun is approximately 1/10th that 22 ft, if not even closer. Ergo you will get your hand on that gun and their arm before they START the trigger pull. So long as your grip is solid AND you zone, even if they do pull the trigger you aren't in front of the barrel anymore and they can't track you to fire another shot. Then you proceed with the rest of the movement.

It takes training but does work

 

[jobo]

Hmmm really? I have responded to a lot of shootings in my day and in almost 20 years the only times there was an "oh crap" was when the person shot themselves.

Also you note the time to pull the trigger. Good, I was actually hoping you would. The average reaction time of a person, under ideal circumstances (they are ready to react, perfect lighting etc) is ~.25 seconds. This is to perform a rather linear task as well, say just pulling the trigger.

So here we have a scenario where the following factors typically exist in a street encounter BEFORE you do anything.
1. The bad guy doesn't want to kill you. They want your money, keys, cellphone, not a murder rap.
2. They are expecting compliance born of fear, after all they have a gun to your head.
3. They are tunnel visioned on the gun and what it is pointing at, in this case your head.

The first two are going to slow his reaction time even further. The third is something the technique exploits.

I could go into detail on the technique but the thing is you have a person who is likely to have a slower than .25 second reaction time. Why is this important? The average untrained person can strike with a fist at a speed of 22 fps. You are reaching for a gun AND zoning, the gun is approximately 1/10th that 22 ft, if not even closer. Ergo you will get your hand on that gun and their arm before they START the trigger pull. So long as your grip is solid AND you zone, even if they do pull the trigger you aren't in front of the barrel anymore and they can't track you to fire another shot. Then you proceed with the rest of the movement.

It takes training but does work

well if your figures were correct it would be impossible to dodge a punch,a tenth of a second to land it, 3/ 10s to dodge it. Yet every day people dodge punches, strange that

 

[drop bear]

Hmmm really? I have responded to a lot of shootings in my day and in almost 20 years the only times there was an "oh crap" was when the person shot themselves.

Also you note the time to pull the trigger. Good, I was actually hoping you would. The average reaction time of a person, under ideal circumstances (they are ready to react, perfect lighting etc) is ~.25 seconds. This is to perform a rather linear task as well, say just pulling the trigger.

So here we have a scenario where the following factors typically exist in a street encounter BEFORE you do anything.
1. The bad guy doesn't want to kill you. They want your money, keys, cellphone, not a murder rap.
2. They are expecting compliance born of fear, after all they have a gun to your head.
3. They are tunnel visioned on the gun and what it is pointing at, in this case your head.

The first two are going to slow his reaction time even further. The third is something the technique exploits.

I could go into detail on the technique but the thing is you have a person who is likely to have a slower than .25 second reaction time. Why is this important? The average untrained person can strike with a fist at a speed of 22 fps. You are reaching for a gun AND zoning, the gun is approximately 1/10th that 22 ft, if not even closer. Ergo you will get your hand on that gun and their arm before they START the trigger pull. So long as your grip is solid AND you zone, even if they do pull the trigger you aren't in front of the barrel anymore and they can't track you to fire another shot. Then you proceed with the rest of the movement.

It takes training but does work

If you are guessing. Write it up like you are guessing. Everyone understands that pretty much nobody has de gunned a person live. But to try to make it sound like you know is one of the main reasons reality based guys sound like snake oil salesmen.

 

[Juany118]

If you are guessing. Write it up like you are guessing. Everyone understands that pretty much nobody has de gunned a person live. But to try to make it sound like you know is one of the main reasons reality based guys sound like snake oil salesmen.

Well I am not guessing. I noted using the technique successfully with functional weapons, against an opponent prepared for the disarm, the weapon was simply equipped with Sims. Now would I do that anywhere but at work? No because it is still dangerous as hell and even though I won more than I lost a 75% success rate isn't enough to take the risk over a wallet. At work however if a guy is doing that they probably intend of killing me anywho so 75% is better than zero.

The point of the last post was simply to support the actual physical dynamics with proven scientific facts (speed, reaction time etc.

 

[drop bear]

Well I am not guessing. I noted using the technique successfully with functional weapons, against an opponent prepared for the disarm, the weapon was simply equipped with Sims. Now would I do that anywhere but at work? No because it is still dangerous as hell and even though I won more than I lost a 75% success rate isn't enough to take the risk over a wallet. At work however if a guy is doing that they probably intend of killing me anywho so 75% is better than zero.

The point of the last post was simply to support the actual physical dynamics with proven scientific facts (speed, reaction time etc.

What is your scientific background?

I mean seriously we need to separate what is known from what is guessed at or we will never separate fact from fiction.

 

[Juany118]

What is your scientific background?

I mean seriously we need to separate what is known from what is guessed at or we will never separate fact from fiction.

Well in terms of the science I will admit I am parroting scientific studies, including ones specifically related to LE UoF. A simple Google of reaction time and punching speed will produce the data.

My main point however was only to use that to support how a majority of the time, against a firearm it sim, meaning same weight, trigger pull etc. as one that would kill. So long as the disarm and zoning happen together it does work. He made the claim of the .3 sec to pull the trigger and so I noted the reaction time and striking speed studies to broaden the context.

 

[drop bear]

Well in terms of the science I will admit I am parroting scientific studies, including ones specifically related to LE UoF. A simple Google of reaction time and punching speed will produce the data.

My main point however was only to use that to support how a majority of the time, against a firearm it sim, meaning same weight, trigger pull etc. as one that would kill. So long as the disarm and zoning happen together it does work. He made the claim of the .3 sec to pull the trigger and so I noted the reaction time and striking speed studies to broaden the context.

Ok. here is the trick. and it is not just you it gets done by people all the time.(Climate change anyone?)

Apart from that we don't know if they are actually facts. We dont know if they are the most applicable facts and we don't know if there are omitted facts that change the conclusion.

What you suggest is pretty convincing.

But then I am not a scientist and would be guessing.

Eg.

 

[jobo]

Well in terms of the science I will admit I am parroting scientific studies, including ones specifically related to LE UoF. A simple Google of reaction time and punching speed will produce the data.

My main point however was only to use that to support how a majority of the time, against a firearm it sim, meaning same weight, trigger pull etc. as one that would kill. So long as the disarm and zoning happen together it does work. He made the claim of the .3 sec to pull the trigger and so I noted the reaction time and striking speed studies to broaden the context.

yes but you've ignored the post about your figures making punch dodging impossible

 

[Juany118]

Ok. here is the trick. and it is not just you it gets done by people all the time.(Climate change anyone?)

Apart from that we don't know if they are actually facts. We dont know if they are the most applicable facts and we don't know if there are omitted facts that change the conclusion.

What you suggest is pretty convincing.

But then I am not a scientist and would be guessing.

Eg.

Okay then forget the numbers. Lets just look at this...

1. I am facing a person pointing a gun at my head.
2. This firearm is a fully functional .40 cal semiautomatic pistol. The only difference is that the barrel was swapped so it would fire bullets that won't kill me, they just break skin or leaves bumps and brusies, if it hits where you have no protective gear, and leaves paint behind. So same size, similar weight (thicker barrel but lighter ammo), same trigger pull etc. of a real gun because it is real.
3. said person KNOWS I am going to try and disarm them, there is no element of surprise in my favor.

Yet with all of that (the lack of surprise imo is the biggest factor), so long as I get my timing right (which I am now at about a 75% success rate my issue is usually the footwork so I don't zone at the right time) I still end up with the gun in the end, and if they manage to get a shot off, the shot misses me and is striking the floor.

I think that this shows it's more than possible, if you train it right.