Koryukai

[elder999]

And,seriously, in the original article in Black Belt Magazine, there was no reference to any "Black Dragon Fighting Society," it was the International Fighting Arts Association.

You can read that article, from Issue #91, Nov. 1980, on page 28, here

 

[kaizasosei]

One of the many ultra-nationalist organizations with policies of expansion. The black dragon is also the name of the amur river, the area where many of the operations were carried out. There were fights and the japanese in the war with russia suffered heavy losses, especially because mongol forces sided against japan.


j

 

[Josh Oakley]

And,seriously, in the original article in Black Belt Magazine, there was no reference to any "Black Dragon Fighting Society," it was the International Fighting Arts Association.

You can read that article, from Issue #91, Nov. 1980, on page 28, here

I've read it. But seeing as the name is not traceable to anything else at all, I'm led to believe it was a cover business for someone else.

 

[Josh Oakley]

You mean, the outfit run by this guy? :lfao:

It was kinda hard to look cool in the 70's, that's for sure.

 

[elder999]

I've read it. But seeing as the name is not traceable to anything else at all, I'm led to believe it was a cover business for someone else.

I think that's a wholly unsupportable conclusion-no more than concluding that he made the whole thing up, anyway, which at least is a more logical inference......that sure is a big, fancy trophy (with engravings in English!) though......

It was kinda hard to look cool in the 70's, that's for sure.

I was just wondering if you meant that it was the Black Dragon Fighting Society founded entirely by the infamous "Count Dante," John Keehan.....

It was kinda hard to look cool in the 70's, that's for sure.

I dunno.Bruce Lee looked pretty cool. Walt Frazier looked pretty cool. Jim Kelly looked pretty cool. A lot of guys looked pretty cool, heck, I thought I looked pretty cool, and you weren't even a twinkle in your mom's eye, yet so how would you know? :lfao:

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

How come the story keeps changing?

First we had Koku ryu kai then it goes into Black Dragon fighting society then it goes into I.F.A.A.?

 

[elder999]

How come the story keeps changing?

First we had Koku ryu kai then it goes into Black Dragon fighting society then it goes into I.F.A.A.?

Actually, that Black Belt story was Frank Dux's first public exposure, and the source of the "kumite" story, so the I.F.A.A. came first.

 

[Kajowaraku]

Actually when i first saw this thread appear I thought it sounded interesting. In my book Kõryuukai reads as "old-school society" or something like that. Certainly more interesting than discussions on the possible existence of a "secret" organisation organising even more secret kumite that just happens to resemble imagery from todays collective memory like mortal combat and that motion picture. Kokuryuukai was an organisation with strictly industrial, political and military motives, although those were highly intertwined, even than. I'm sure some people at some time organised some cruel highly secret kumite, but let's be honest; how are we ever going to get cold evidence for that, apart from the bold assertions of man dressing like a videogamecharacter claiming to be a secret ninjamaster?

Smell the coffee and wake up people.

 

[elder999]

Smell the coffee and wake up people.

Actually, that's wake up and smell the coffee. :lol:

 

[Josh Oakley]

I think that's a wholly unsupportable conclusion-no more than concluding that he made the whole thing up, anyway, which at least is a more logical inference......that sure is a big, fancy trophy (with engravings in English!) though......




I was just wondering if you meant that it was the Black Dragon Fighting Society founded entirely by the infamous "Count Dante," John Keehan.....



I dunno.Bruce Lee looked pretty cool. Walt Frazier looked pretty cool. Jim Kelly looked pretty cool. A lot of guys looked pretty cool, heck, I thought I looked pretty cool, and you weren't even a twinkle in your mom's eye, yet so how would you know? :lfao:

Yes, I was referring to the one founded by Keehan.


Sorry, I'm sure you looked cool in the 70's by 70's standards. I have no taste for 70's style and fashion in even the slightest. But you're really playing the "whipper-snapper" card in regards to looking cool??

 

[Josh Oakley]

I think that's a wholly unsupportable conclusion-no more than concluding that he made the whole thing up, anyway, which at least is a more logical inference......that sure is a big, fancy trophy (with engravings in English!) though......

Since when did "led to believe" become a full-blown conclusion???

AS for made up, Vic Moore claims to have seen it (consequently claims to have fought in it, and lost to Mr. Dux). Ron Pierce claims to have seen it. Gerald Okamura claims to have seen it. Irving Soto claims to have fought in it. Paola Tocha and Kurt Peterson claim to have fought in the Kumite as well.

It brings doubt on the claim of the thing being made up.

 

[elder999]

Sorry, I'm sure you looked cool in the 70's by 70's standards. I have no taste for 70's style and fashion in even the slightest. But you're really playing the "whipper-snapper" card in regards to looking cool??

I not only looked cool, I was cool. Hell, I'm still cool, and look pretty cool too!

Whipper snapper. :lol:

 

[elder999]

. Irving Soto claims to have fought in it.

It brings doubt on the claim of the thing being made up.

He also claims to have won in years when Dux claims to have won, and to have won in years when, according to the Black Belt article, the kumite wouldn't have taken place. Talk about "doubt..."

Grandmaster Irving "Tweeta hand Soto :

These are the years that Soke Grandmaster I. Soto has won the ultimate championship called the full-contact Kumite, everything goes. This is not a point tournament. This is the ultimate fighting championship open only to family members. Only the best of the best from around the world were allowed to compete, by invitation only.

• • 1973
  • 1974
  • 1975
  • 1976
  • 1977
  • 1978
  • 1979
  • 1980

 

[Josh Oakley]

I not only looked cool, I was cool. Hell, I'm still cool, and look pretty cool too!

Whipper snapper. :lol:

Point conceded. You radiate cool. And this should never be challenged.

 

[Josh Oakley]

He also claims to have won in years when Dux claims to have won, and to have won in years when, according to the Black Belt article, the kumite wouldn't have taken place. Talk about "doubt..."

Grandmaster Irving "Tweeta hand Soto :

[/color]
[/list]
[/list]
[/color]

Would it be helpful to point out that Mr. Dux claims the heaviweight title and Mr. Soto claims the middleweight title?

 

[Josh Oakley]

He's also shown further down the page posing with Mr. Dux further down on that same page. I doubt that if Mr. Soto felt Dux's claims conflicted with his own, he would not pose in a picture with him, not to mention put that picture up on his own website.

 

[Chris Parker]

Okay, I must be a glutton for punishment, but I can say thank you for insisting we check out that page. It showed better than we can with this martialtalk's rigid fraudbusting rules what Soto is all about... I mean, someone with that apparent "experience" constantly misusing terminology, misspelling words, using incorrect terms... and having nothing but posed photos at public events which anyone can get as evidence to back up some frankly laughable claims? Not really sure how you felt this was helping you, Josh. For it to be believed you need to have no knowledge at all of Japanese martial arts, culture, language, history... need I go on?

But to address your last post there, both are publicity seeking, both know that the only way for the other to really prove the claim false is to admit that it didn't happen in the first place. So, no, I'm not surprised here. Like attracts like, after all.

 

[Bruno@MT]

That was certainly an interesting link. Soke Professor Grandmaster Soto was a lucky man. He couldn't move 10 feet without stumbling over secret grandmasters willing to teach him. And you have to admit that winning 279 full contact matches with 279 knockouts is impressive.

 

[Josh Oakley]

Okay, I must be a glutton for punishment, but I can say thank you for insisting we check out that page. It showed better than we can with this martialtalk's rigid fraudbusting rules what Soto is all about... I mean, someone with that apparent "experience" constantly misusing terminology, misspelling words, using incorrect terms... and having nothing but posed photos at public events which anyone can get as evidence to back up some frankly laughable claims? Not really sure how you felt this was helping you, Josh. For it to be believed you need to have no knowledge at all of Japanese martial arts, culture, language, history... need I go on?

But to address your last post there, both are publicity seeking, both know that the only way for the other to really prove the claim false is to admit that it didn't happen in the first place. So, no, I'm not surprised here. Like attracts like, after all.

Oh, by all means, do indeed go on. And to address your second paragraph I don't buy that the ONLY way for one of them to prove the other person's claim is false is to admit it didn't happen.

But you're right. One other guy claiming to have been witness to or have participated in the Kumite would not have helped my case at all. That's why I listed more than one. It's not when other person is making the same claim, but when a preponderance of people are making the same claims, that brings one to suspect that maybe the Kumite really did exist.

 

[Kajowaraku]

That was certainly an interesting link. Soke Professor Grandmaster Soto was a lucky man. He couldn't move 10 feet without stumbling over secret grandmasters willing to teach him. And you have to admit that winning 279 full contact matches with 279 knockouts is impressive.

Not nearly as impressive as your understanding of hinikujutsu. (and no, i'm not talking about techniques for fighting with ham)